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Author Topic: Stubborn, the new fearless?  (Read 10105 times)

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Offline Diteron

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2009, 03:53:22 AM »
I think someone pulled the wool over your eyes.

Marines (including Terminators) are not fearless.
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Offline Thalandir

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2009, 07:12:31 AM »
Marines are better than Stubborn, or Fearless.  The ability to auto-fail and try and fall back with no risk of getting swept and little chance of taking much damage from fearless wounds is amazing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but if they fail the leadership test (or choose to fail) and the enemy wins the sweeping roll, aren't they caught in combat anyway, only now they also take saves from No Retreat. That's probably what you're getting at, I'm just saying that it's not as easy to fall back intentionally like that, given that Sweeping Advance favours the victor of the combat, so unless you were being sweeping advanced by Orks or 'crons (with their amazing Initiative), there is only about a 50% chance or less of successfully breaking out of combat (Correct me if I'm wrong but I 3 with the advantage vs I 4 is equal chance, and any higher Initiative means that the chance of breaking off is even less?)

I agree that morale seriously needs to play a bigger part in the game, a quick-fix USR is not always the answer to problems. I did notice the boost it received after my first read through the 5th edition rule book, as I realised that the leadership would now be modified by the difference in casualties, rather than who had more guys (which in my mind made more sense) and as such many units would see their leadership drop to something around 4 or so. Given this, having your leadership un-modifiable is a terrific boon.

Don't even get me started on instant-killability (or lack thereof). As if Calgar or Lysander could take a hit from a Wraithlord or Carnifex and stay standing. Even if they weren't killed, they'd be in no state to keep on fighting...

EDIT: Lysander, not Dorn *facepalm* I'm sure Dorn is one of the few who could take such a blow and keep on fighting.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 07:25:42 AM by Thalandir »


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Offline g00gle5

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2009, 07:54:24 AM »
I do agree with Hymril that Stubborn is becoming more and more widespread, and it will be a shame to see it as often as we saw 4th edition Rending.

Most of the whining I see about Leadership not affecting games is just theory hammer, though. People say it doesn't affect 40k as much as Fantasy but in some ways I beg to differ. Count how many leadership checks you make in a game of Fantasy. Then check how many Leadership checks you make in a game of 40k.

Because in my 40k games I wouldn't be that afraid to say I make at least 3-4x as many as my Fantasy ones (and I don't play Undead...) and if 40k Leadership was as average as it is in Fantasy our armies would all have run off by the top of turn 4.

I find a bad leadership fail - pinning or falling back - at the wrong time can really change a game of 40k and you can really punish a unit for it (escort it off the board by staying within 6").

I love the way leadership is dealt with in 40k, and wouldn't have it any other way. So that's why I'm hoping Stubborn doesn't become commonplace everywhere.

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Offline Locarno

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2009, 08:17:39 AM »
Quote
I think that Calgar's God of War ability may end up appearing more and more (Inquisitors and the like). It's better than Fearless/ Stubborn and Combat Tactics combined.

Hmm....yes and no. Stubborn stuff gets to take a leadership check and if it passes (on a 9, normally), then no No Retreat! wounds. Use God of War, and you will take the extra wounds (because you auto-passed your morale test).

I can't decide about stubborn. In the marine codices, It pops up for two characters, and (a) it makes you no better against gunfire and (b) costs you combat tactics, so I can't say I mind. For Imperial Guard, 50-strong stubborn infantry squads are ANNOYING. They are just the uber-tarpit...
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Offline pdelair

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2009, 08:53:00 AM »
I agree that such USRs shouldn't be spammed across all of the codecies and that Leadership has been castrated as a useful unit statistic (especially with respect to Pinning), but I want to clarify something Raktra said (I misunderstood).  :-\

Only two(?) of the Space Marine Special Characters have God of War (Eternal Warrior) in the new codex and the Admantine Mantle has been removed as a Wargear option.  So, with the exception of the older BT, BA, SW, and BA codecies, Space Marines now have only very limited options when seeking immunity to Instant Death.

NewHeretic

SW only wish they had something to make them immune to instant death. As a side note SW actually have had the reverse happen in 5th Ed regarding leadership and combat resolution. Since they don't have access to Stubborn or Fearless and No Matter the Odds is no longer an effective rule, they are much much easier to break in CC.

Offline Benis

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2009, 10:25:14 AM »
SW only wish they had something to make them immune to instant death. As a side note SW actually have had the reverse happen in 5th Ed regarding leadership and combat resolution. Since they don't have access to Stubborn or Fearless and No Matter the Odds is no longer an effective rule, they are much much easier to break in CC.

This has little to do with Stubborn and the general application of universal rules and sounds, to me, more like whining and thread de-railing.

Most of the whining I see about Leadership not affecting games is just theory hammer, though. People say it doesn't affect 40k as much as Fantasy but in some ways I beg to differ. Count how many leadership checks you make in a game of Fantasy. Then check how many Leadership checks you make in a game of 40k.

I would generally say that this is not the case but I have never really measured it, I guess it depends on armies involved but the effects of panic in WHFB means that there are many more sources of leadership tests and that's something I wouldn't have anything against if it was brought back to WH40k. The main thing I find annoying though is the widespread morale protection that almost all armies have.

Offline Spirit of Kurnous

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 01:34:16 PM »
i agree, WHFB has far more morale tests, from panic cos a unit next to your is fleeing to widespread terror when a dragon lands in the middle of your army.  and if you face undead you have morale checks for every charge unless you are immune to fear.
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Offline Daedalus_Mk_V

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2009, 02:48:12 PM »
I would generally say that this is not the case but I have never really measured it, I guess it depends on armies involved but the effects of panic in WHFB means that there are many more sources of leadership tests and that's something I wouldn't have anything against if it was brought back to WH40k. The main thing I find annoying though is the widespread morale protection that almost all armies have.
It really does depend on the army being played. Chaos, for example, is virtually never vulnerable to morale breaks, barring massive combat losses, so morale ceases to be a part of the game for them (and that's for the non-Fearless units). Daemons are the same, but more so. Everyone else has some reliance on LD, though 'Nids can build a list which doesn't (Nidzilla) and Space Marines mostly just manipulate the whole thing to their own benefit. Play against a Tau or Guard player and tell me that their LD plays no part in the game, and even Eldar and Necrons can be broken with some applied effort. The simple fact is that a lot of people overemphasize the Space Marine style armies and forget that it's far from impossible to strip Orks, Eldar and Tyranids of their morale protection, while most armies have no (or very, very limited) access to Fearless at all. I guess it really does depend on experience, but I often find that morale is quite important to the game.

Offline Locarno

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 03:51:26 AM »
The other observation about stubborn - it is good, possibly better than fearless, to keep you there in combat provided you have a good leadership to start with.

Stubborn Ld9 (fists and sororitas) rocks
Stubborn Ld8....not so hot.


The extreme case is snotlings. Stubborn Ld4. I mean, why?

Part of the problem is that everything has such an immensely high leadership. Ld7 is average guard-fashion. But squad leaders are usually +1........and elite-ish troops +1.....meaning that most armies have a functional leadership of 9 or 10.

At least guardsmen no longer have the bubbles of massed rerollable Ld10 as officers no longer project their leadership around them. Yes, you can make individual squads stubborn with leadership rerolls but you pay through the nose for it....

Yes, all right, there are exceptions (commissar lord, and command platoon issuing the Get Back In the Fight! order)
but they're exceptions, not the rule.
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Offline Imperial Dragon

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 04:24:32 AM »
As mentioned up thread, Stubborn can really hurt the Guard, by having a squad stick in when getting charged means the attacker would have stood out in the open and taken it on the chin.  Now the squad stays, and gets wiped on the Guardsmen's turn, which frees the attacker to go after something else.

Offline Locarno

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2009, 04:54:43 AM »
That depends ENTIRELY on how big the squad is.
50 guardsmen formed up is highly unlikely to go down in a couple of assault phases......
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Offline Imperial Dragon

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2009, 05:09:50 AM »
That depends ENTIRELY on how big the squad is.
50 guardsmen formed up is highly unlikely to go down in a couple of assault phases......

Vs Orks, it might, but not against Assault Marines or Scops or Banshees, sure.  Of course I hold the right to laugh my ass off if you try to charge 10 men, assualt focused or not, into a Stubborn 50 man unit.
 
Besides, something that unwieldy, with the usual Guard 5+, is going to get chewed up in shooting against templates, and I don't believe Stubborn helps against pinning, though I may be wrong on that counts.

Offline Locarno

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2009, 05:53:34 AM »
No, it doesn't. But equally, with (a) the countercharge move and (b) the fact that I don't give a damn about actually winning rounds of combat, means the platoon can be stretched out as much as coherency allows. Given the numbers of men likely to be involved in guard armies now, fitting them all into a deployment zone means your entire army is a martry to area effect weaponry, whether split into individual squads or not!

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Offline Imperial Dragon

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2009, 06:18:12 AM »
No, it doesn't. But equally, with (a) the countercharge move and (b) the fact that I don't give a damn about actually winning rounds of combat, means the platoon can be stretched out as much as coherency allows. Given the numbers of men likely to be involved in guard armies now, fitting them all into a deployment zone means your entire army is a martry to area effect weaponry, whether split into individual squads or not!

Heh, field two full platoons, by the time you're done, your opponent has fallen asleep, you win by default.  ;D

Offline edible

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #34 on: April 1, 2009, 04:57:39 AM »
I personally think that units with fearless and maybe even stubborn should suffer badly in cover, I refuse to believe a squad that will stick in the fight with a greater demon, take basilisk fire from behind a hill etc, will hide behind trees/walls and do their best to avoid being hit.

Likewise units with good stealth/scouting abilitys should have very poor morale naturally.

In short, if your unit wont drop flat, and keep up shooting in response to sniper fire, they should get rounds to the face from the aforementioned sniper.

Offline Spirit of Kurnous

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #35 on: April 1, 2009, 07:39:57 AM »
I personally think that units with fearless and maybe even stubborn should suffer badly in cover, I refuse to believe a squad that will stick in the fight with a greater demon, take basilisk fire from behind a hill etc, will hide behind trees/walls and do their best to avoid being hit.

Likewise units with good stealth/scouting abilitys should have very poor morale naturally.

In short, if your unit wont drop flat, and keep up shooting in response to sniper fire, they should get rounds to the face from the aforementioned sniper.

whilsti agree with the 1st part i dont with the stealth/scouting ones having poor morale.  they wouldnt be fearless but to go out on your own and scout the enemy without support requires you to be brave.  scouts etc should be elite type units as look at things like SAS, or recon etc all elite troops.
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Offline Phantomime

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #36 on: April 1, 2009, 01:03:19 PM »
it is hugely dissatisfying that morale hasn't played an important part since 2nd edition. Most races should be susceptible to morale damage, not only Guard and non-Ethereal Tau. Personally, I would like to see more general morale attacks, like Fear and Panic.

The increase of special rules that cancel out other special rules is quite unwanted if you ask me.
The point of Instant Death was that powerful attacks should inflict a greater damage; it's not the same to be shot by a laspistol as it is to be hit by Multi-melta, and since GW removed the potential for weapons to cause multiple wounds there is no such way except Instant Death. For me, the only creatures that deserves such a rule as Eternal Warrior is Greater Daemons, Avatars, Tyrants and some special characters (Phoenix Lords etc.). Anyway, I would much rather see that powerful weapons had the potential to cause additional wounds even if they aren't double toughness.

mm, additional wounds... the necromunda las cannon... the heavy bolter... :D

so much has changed from 2nd to 5th. general rules have replaced races. so much depth has simply been ripped right out: granades  :-X Now its more that a 1-2points of str, toughness, ws, bs, init, is really all that sperates races. 'fleet' is simply a better form of the universal 'run.' sure that's not so bad, wraithlords and wraithguard can 'run' to get into cover now, but it makes races much less flavorful. stats and equipment are the biggest differences, the rest just feels more cookie-cutter.

it bugs me that every year it seems eldar and the other races have more and more in common with space marines, or rather, that space marines gain the option to take more abilities that can make them more like anyone else. except generally better. :P

anyways, moral.. my friends have recently started playing necromunda - which has a lot inline with 2nd Ed, a system that, if cleaned up a bit and brought inline with the current racial codexes, would be AWESOME! 2nd has a huge amount of depth, and the modifier system is far superior to the 'all or nothing' system that IS 5th ed.

incidently, that is EXACTLY the problem with moral in 40k. its 'all or nothing,' generally siding with the 'nothing' side of things, but such that when moral actually FAILS, the result is devastating...
pinning = wtf pwned! WHEN it happens.
unit broken = the unit may still have 9 guys left in it, but it's gone!

a modifier system would make so much more sense, and it would allow Leadership to actually become an important stat, rather one that is generally at 9 out of a possible 10 for basicly every race.
(modifiers like, pinning test failed = unit moves as if it was in difficult terrain and takes a -1 to ws, bs, and init - for any additional pinning tests failed by the squad the stat modifers are cumulative.) - its still not good, but its not like 'miss a turn.' it also really plays up units that have 'move though cover' - scouts - who seem the least likely to suffer from pinning.

for moral, you should always be able to test to regroup if you are atleast 12" from an enemy and out of LoS, OR, if you are within 6" of a friendly HQ, or something of that effect.
Moral modifiers could be applied based on the condition of the squad (full strength = +1Ld, under full strength = -1) would make for things like 'fear' to come back into play, especially later in the game, when very few squads will be getting their moral bonus (could also make things like 'stubborn' count as "this unit always uses its base leadership." - its never super good, but its never super bad either.)
« Last Edit: April 1, 2009, 01:18:22 PM by Phantomime »
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Offline edible

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #37 on: April 2, 2009, 06:31:57 AM »
whilsti agree with the 1st part i dont with the stealth/scouting ones having poor morale.  they wouldnt be fearless but to go out on your own and scout the enemy without support requires you to be brave.  scouts etc should be elite type units as look at things like SAS, or recon etc all elite troops.

And do the SAS run screaming at the machine guns or retreat and wait in cover for other units to clear it?

Offline Spirit of Kurnous

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #38 on: April 2, 2009, 09:01:26 AM »
they tend to clear them themselves, but not run screaming at them.  and in a 40k sense I would say they are fearless infiltrators.
just because you are fearless doesnt make you stupid, you can understand the situation but follow it through, just not in a suicidal way
40k:
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Slaanesh Deamons = 2000pts

Fantasy:
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Offline Awfully Dandy

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Re: Stubborn, the new fearless?
« Reply #39 on: April 2, 2009, 02:01:34 PM »
@ Phantomine.

Why? If you like better morale play 40k. Seriously.

Their is a reason those rules work for necromunda. BECAUSE IT IS SMALL SCALE. Try to play a gang of over 50 mdoels. See how long that game lasts. You will see that this is a game for different systems. In 40k it is meant to be quick and brutal. I play 40k for a quick game and not a marathon length game. If your changes were implemented the game would last far too long.

 


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