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Author Topic: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion  (Read 21706 times)

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Offline RezZzeD

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2011, 11:56:12 PM »
They are quite cool though and a fun choice but don't kid yourself - they are the Swooping Hawks of the Necrons codex.

Yea, that's a stretch.  While mathhammer is just on paper, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Terminators have a good chance at taking the terminators in round 3 with one survivor.  While that's in a closed system and doesn't really mean this would happen, it does mean that they have some serious fight in them versus something of equal points, that does have a serious power weapon and invulnerable save.  And that's after 3 rounds, pretty decent if you ask me.  Could lychguard do it better? possibly.  But could the lychguard get to them fast enough a. when it counts, b. without being shot up first by storm bolters?

The key is using them correctly, and their mobility helps you do this greatly.  And while Gutstikk is digging on the voidblades and particle casters, I like the up close force of the rods.

I think discounting these guys as close to terrible would be a mistake if you are up against them.  I'll let you know how my play testing goes.

Offline Benis

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2011, 02:37:43 AM »
Yea, that's a stretch.  While mathhammer is just on paper, 5 Praetorians versus 5 Terminators have a good chance at taking the terminators in round 3 with one survivor. 

Which really only proves my point. Against a unit that is the ultimate target for this squad (Tactical Terminators) they still fail to deliver. Killing a squad of equal points over three rounds while being ruined in return doesn't constitute effectiveness, it is a pyrrhic victory at best. 40k is about damage output not unit resilience, some units manage to rely on resilience but the Praetorians isn't one of them due to their expense. Against more regular targets such as five grey hunters and a wolf guard they actually end up being tied for about as long as the Terminators manage (for almost half the price), it simply isn't effective to require several turns to destroy a target and come through with most of the unit being dead.

The Reanimation Protocols are a great shield - outside of close combat. It is not comparable to an invulnerable save in close combat due to the fact that the models wounded prior to their initiative don't get to fight even if the Reanimation Protocols passes, they have no contribution during the turn they get wounded which is something that is hard for Necrons to afford since they need all the output they can get in close combat.

The key is using them correctly, and their mobility helps you do this greatly. 

Unlike other units which don't require correct use?  ::)

To state that something requires correct application has nothing to do with how useful and effective a unit is. If you do use Praetorians (something I myself have planned to do) they will have uses and sometimes be quite nasty but that doesn't mean they are effective or well-balanced, it just means that they actually have characteristics and weapons. If a Space Marine squad was priced twice its current point cost it would still be a Space Marine squad, but an imbalanced one, it would still be able to do whatever the regular Space Marine squad is able to do.

They are hardly swooping hawks - they are rather hard to bring down, and can get back up on top of that. If you want a fair amount of attacks swap fpr the voidblades and particle casters. Keep in mind they can deepstrike with the particle casters as well, making them a threat to enemy armor if needed. I think the praetorians default mode is to utilize the voidblade and caster combo, and only rely on the rod of covenent for specific plans.

So if your plan is to attack rear armour with deep strike why not roll with some Destroyers which are better at it and nastier against other targets or even Wraiths with particle casters which also surpasses the Praetorians in close combat? They are not literally Necrons' Swooping Hawks, they are a unit with similar balance and performance issues.

I think their best use is hunting Carnifex, join up with Wraiths for combined assaults (whip coils ahoy!) and killing off depleted MEQ/TEQ squads. Neither of these tasks are really worthy of such an expensive unit but it would be fun and they are an interesting unit that will throw out curve balls, against both you and your enemy.

Offline Partninja

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2011, 01:45:17 PM »
In my tests games I'm not a fan of the Wraiths either. Rending relys on a lot of wounds, which needs a lot of attacks. A max squad of 5 is needed for this and still fail to really put out the hurt in my experience. On top of all that, a full squad with coils is very expensive..

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2011, 09:22:49 PM »
They are hardly swooping hawks - they are rather hard to bring down, and can get back up on top of that. If you want a fair amount of attacks swap fpr the voidblades and particle casters. Keep in mind they can deepstrike with the particle casters as well, making them a threat to enemy armor if needed. I think the praetorians default mode is to utilize the voidblade and caster combo, and only rely on the rod of covenent for specific plans.

So if your plan is to attack rear armour with deep strike why not roll with some Destroyers which are better at it and nastier against other targets or even Wraiths with particle casters which also surpasses the Praetorians in close combat? They are not literally Necrons' Swooping Hawks, they are a unit with similar balance and performance issues.

I was taking issue with the literal comparison to swooping hawks - we both know that Swooping Hawks tend to underperform and have a big design issue in that one of their strongest abilities requires not having the Hawks on the table :). Praetorians also work quite nicely with Wraiths since they occupy different force org sections yet have similar implementations. I think they probably play nicer with Wraiths than with Destroyers. Between Praetorians, Overlords+Crypteks with Veils, Wraiths, Monoliths  and Immortals, you could have a very speedy army that can get about the table quickly and do quite a bit of damage in one localized area before flitting off to another specific area, with all units working together to bring down the enemy piecemeal.

Offline Benis

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2011, 09:49:20 PM »
I was taking issue with the literal comparison to swooping hawks - we both know that Swooping Hawks tend to underperform and have a big design issue in that one of their strongest abilities requires not having the Hawks on the table :).

Yep, but in my mind they are also a sort of benchmark for units that are overpriced and lack significant damage output hence their use as a reference for the Praetorians.

Between Praetorians, Overlords+Crypteks with Veils, Wraiths, Monoliths  and Immortals, you could have a very speedy army that can get about the table quickly and do quite a bit of damage in one localized area before flitting off to another specific area, with all units working together to bring down the enemy piecemeal.

I see those capacities as more in the realm of counter-attacks but with enough pressure anything can break. :)

Not the Fast Attack thread but...

In my tests games I'm not a fan of the Wraiths either. Rending relys on a lot of wounds, which needs a lot of attacks. A max squad of 5 is needed for this and still fail to really put out the hurt in my experience. On top of all that, a full squad with coils is very expensive..

Sounds like bad luck, Wraiths should be quite solid against almost any enemy; they have the raw strength, resilience and attacks for it and with rending they can even hold out against Terminators and be quite nasty towards vehicles. As for full squad with whip coils, I doubt that is necessary, in a full squad 2-3 whip coils should do enough initiative dropping for them to work.

Offline enlg

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2011, 09:49:32 PM »
I might also add that (in theory) praetorians gain more from their army's skimmers than swooping hawks do from their army's skimmers. Swooping hawks need to see infantry targets to do the most damage to them. Praetorians can hide behind necron skimmers and then jump out to assault devastators or small combat squads.

As I most often play as Nurgle chaos, I would say that one should not underestimate the power of jump infantry+running to gain distance and the resilience of T5 vs. small infantry squads. Having 5 T5 infantry with power weapons is a pretty brutal thing, especially when you can (through shooting and charging) get 15 power weapon hits on a small squad. That can easily remedy devastators (and long fangs). The only problem is grey knight and terminator units, that will tear them up in CC (but wraiths can help vs. the grey knights, but not vs. THSS termies).

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2011, 02:48:12 AM »
I might also add that (in theory) praetorians gain more from their army's skimmers than swooping hawks do from their army's skimmers. Swooping hawks need to see infantry targets to do the most damage to them. Praetorians can hide behind necron skimmers and then jump out to assault devastators or small combat squads.

Keep in mind that skimmers don't block line of sight, although in my playgroup we do have them provide a 5+ coversave to infantry behind them.

I think a major factor in using pretorians is what army you're up against.  Against armies that lack powerweapons/fists in the majority of their squads they are excellent in they are really durable.  However, a single powerfist in a squad can potentially cost you a lot of points.

Overall, I personally think wraiths are more versitile.  They don't need to hug cover as their save is invulnerable, which also means they don't care if they are up against power weapons or normal infantry and are less likely to be sniped by the odd lascannonr or krak missle.  They also have 2 wounds which makes up for having less toughness than the pretorians.  Finally, 4 attacks on the charge with S6 will devestate weak infantry and rending will help againt more elite infantry.  they also have the option of whip coils if they need the edge in initiative.

Pretorians can be useful but they are limited by lack of invulnerable save and low number of base attacks (some bad rolls on the charge could have them tied up for too long).  I would say they are great for taking out small heavily armored squads or tarpitting large weak squads that lack special CC weapons.  but power fists/weapons in general will really hurt them, in addition to being hit by long range anti-MEQ weapons.

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2011, 09:44:21 AM »
Keep in mind that skimmers don't block line of sight, although in my playgroup we do have them provide a 5+ coversave to infantry behind them.

Skimmers can block line of sight, this isn't a previous edition, true line of sight happens. There is a possibility, depending on the model. Obviously a Valkyrie won't be blocking line of sight but a Monolith for sure will. I can't compare with Eldar vehicles as I hardly see actual models of them on the table...

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2011, 09:50:40 AM »
Ah, I forgot as it was so long ago.  with true LOS we had a huge discussion on if skimmers blocked LOS since some players argued that their infantry could "see under" the skimmers, the skimmer players then threatened to shorten their bases so they would block LOS, in the end, just to prevent arguments in game and excessive amounts of time trying to peak around skimmers to see if there is LOS or not, it was finally decided that that they provide a cover save to units behind them.

Offline Partninja

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2011, 12:25:40 PM »
Ah, I forgot as it was so long ago.  with true LOS we had a huge discussion on if skimmers blocked LOS since some players argued that their infantry could "see under" the skimmers, the skimmer players then threatened to shorten their bases so they would block LOS, in the end, just to prevent arguments in game and excessive amounts of time trying to peak around skimmers to see if there is LOS or not, it was finally decided that that they provide a cover save to units behind them.

This is how we treat all skimmers at my LGS. The game is not static, and skimmers could be hovering low, or flying up higher to move over things. We even do this for ravens and valkries despite their tall stands.

Offline prot

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2011, 02:19:35 PM »
The Praetorian vs Lynchguard debate is interesting indeed. (It's not that I don't consider the Wraiths, just frankly after years of being forced to use them, I don't want to anymore. lol)

I am really torn between these two units. Deflector shields are just a cool idea, though I don't see them getting used in most situations.

Originally I was going to go with the Lynchguard because to me a bid factor is initiative and how it relates to survivability. The shields on Lynchguard obviously help survivability issues.

However, one thing that I've noticed is some are saying the reanimation protocols are a form of invulnerable save... which could be true, except most armies are going to have 5 praetorians/lynchguard if at all. They might all be dead.

The conclusion I am coming to is Lynchguard might be better for a static army. They are better at facing firepower, and it's not the end of the world if they get assaulted. They might be around to come back from the parts box too.

Praetorians might be better suited to multiple army types. I see them obviously being more mobile, but more fragile.

I think I'm going to go with 5 Praetorians with Rods of Covenant.

Offline RezZzeD

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2011, 07:35:57 PM »
However, one thing that I've noticed is some are saying the reanimation protocols are a form of invulnerable save... which could be true

Not quite.  An invulnerable save keeps you up and fighting, RP lets you get back up once you went down.  If you go down in cc you might miss your turn to strike, while an invulnerable save will keep you up and swinging.  But, if you don't have an option of an invulnerable save, RP will do as a close second.

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2011, 09:33:40 PM »
However, one thing that I've noticed is some are saying the reanimation protocols are a form of invulnerable save... which could be true

Not quite.  An invulnerable save keeps you up and fighting, RP lets you get back up once you went down.  If you go down in cc you might miss your turn to strike, while an invulnerable save will keep you up and swinging.  But, if you don't have an option of an invulnerable save, RP will do as a close second.

To add, don't forget the obvious that if the squad is too small (like Praetorians and Lychguard will probably be because of their points) then Reanimation Protocols might not even come into effect because the entire squad has already been knocked down.

Offline BritishBill

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2011, 12:00:38 AM »
Very interesting discussion about Lychguards versus Praetorians. I had started favouring Lychguards but now wonder if the extra movement that Praetorians have doesn't cause me to reverse my decision. But I have question about how the rules would work for a Praetorian with Voidblades and Particle Casters in close combat with a vehicle or model with an armour value.

So I have charged the tank or dreadnought and I get three attacks for charging and having two close combat weapons. So far so good, I hope.

So if I haven't lost any of my guys, I have 15 attacks and lets say I hit with 7 of them. I think what I then do, given that the void blade has Entropic Strike, is to roll 7 dice looking to throw 4 or more, lets say I throw 4 dice at 4+. So against a Dreadnought, I have just reduced its front armour to 8.

Is this the end of what I have achieved in close combat, or do I now get to roll 7 dice (because I got 7 hits) to resolve my armour pentration against a front armour of 8, in which case I might get 3 or 4 pentrating hits. It would take an awfully long time to reduce a vehicle down to an armour value of 0 on one of its faces, so I assume I must also get my normal penetration roll and take my chances on the damage table at some point. But does this happen during the same turn as the entropic effect and if it does, before or after the armour value has been reduced.

I have looked through the codex, and I don't think it is spelled out either way. If I have missed the definitive answer there or in any other GW communication, can you please point me in the right direction. I am sure you can all see the advantages of this logic in dealing with vehicles and dreadnoughts as they approach .... but am I hoping for too much ?

***  Sorry guys, I see now that this question has been addressed in the Rules Forum, but it appears that the community cannot agree on the answer. Probably better not to reopen that deabte again, but a definite answer would certainly influence my decision as to whether I might want to take Lychguard with WarScythes or Praetorians with Void Blades in an Elite Slot.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:20:17 AM by BritishBill »

Offline RezZzeD

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2011, 12:28:25 AM »
I don't know if they should be mutually exclusive.  At a high enough point cost I plan on fielding both Praetorians and Lychguard, as they fill different roles.

Britishbill, a lot of people appear to be favoring the Lychguard with shields and swords for the invulnerable save over the war scythes.  I haven't formed an opinion yet, but definitely check 'em out.

Offline enlg

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2011, 01:54:47 AM »
Another nice thing about Praetorians is that, when behind wraiths, they can get cover and can be a nice non-fast attack assault unit. Also consider the fact that scarabs can be assaulted by strong 1-wound infantry and taken down, while Praetorians can't due to their high toughness. I could imagine dreadnoughts getting utterly ruined by void blades due to only being able to kill 2-3 praetorians at max before getting their armor dropped.

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2011, 06:01:30 AM »
I've settled for the time being on a unit of Praetorians, a unit of Lychguard, and a unit of Flayed Ones. Flayed Ones are the outflanking element of the force which I've grown to consider a key element of my most successful lists, since it tends to corral the enemy into the center of the table. This makes it easier for my units to focus on the enemy in one place, which is important when my gun range and movement may both be less than that of the enemy's.

Lychguard - there's no reason not to rely on these guys if you take a Night Scythe as well. In one turn they'll be set up to attack pretty much anywhere you want, without much fear of losses on the way in. Since you can attach a Lord if you so choose I find the warscythes to be the les exciting option - a full unit of scythes is plain overkill.

Praetorians - This unit is an excellent assist unit which can contribute to other elements of your army, adding a bit of extra punch whether you're sending them at vehicles, monstrous creatures or elite infantry. Heckm they can even do a number on line infantry if need be, due to their resilience and potentially high number of attacks. I prefer the voidblades and particle casters due to increased threat range and higher S on the gunshot, but both options have their place.

Offline Benis

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2011, 06:34:28 AM »
Lychguard - there's no reason not to rely on these guys if you take a Night Scythe as well. In one turn they'll be set up to attack pretty much anywhere you want, without much fear of losses on the way in. Since you can attach a Lord if you so choose I find the warscythes to be the les exciting option - a full unit of scythes is plain overkill.

The problem for this kind of manoeuvre is the one Killersquid mentioned, the risk is awfully high that your unit will end up in reserves and having to walk back on. That is a lot of points being denied to have a great effect. The times it works it will be brutal but against most armies the Night Scythe will be a prime target and sending about 300+ points back into reserves is worth a lot of fire power attention.

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2011, 06:54:16 AM »
A Monolith certainly makes the approach much more reliable. Two nightscythes and a monolith or two isn't a terrible thing to drop into a list, for the points...

Offline prot

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2011, 08:36:51 AM »
Lychguard - there's no reason not to rely on these guys if you take a Night Scythe as well. In one turn they'll be set up to attack pretty much anywhere you want, without much fear of losses on the way in. Since you can attach a Lord if you so choose I find the warscythes to be the les exciting option - a full unit of scythes is plain overkill.

The problem for this kind of manoeuvre is the one Killersquid mentioned, the risk is awfully high that your unit will end up in reserves and having to walk back on. That is a lot of points being denied to have a great effect. The times it works it will be brutal but against most armies the Night Scythe will be a prime target and sending about 300+ points back into reserves is worth a lot of fire power attention.

I keep thinking about this. I also keep thinking that this MUST be a GOOD thing in 6th edition. I am not purposing we talk about 6th edition, but some of the rules, like the Night Scythe rule seem to be highly negative to me. I would much rather have a unit like Lynchguard get out, and stand in a crater, or whatever, than get teleported back to reserve. That could effectively take them out of the game.

I still can't decide though. There are good points for either unit but I feel in my current army set up I can only go one way: Praetorians or Lynchguard.  For me the load out is an easy decision. It's more a battle for me to decide if I want a very slow, but sturdier unit, vs the quicker acting, but less survivable Praetorians and their shooty glory (which I think is better than close combat anyway.)

I do know after playing Termies the other night, you NEED a unit to stop the bleeding.

 


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