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Author Topic: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion  (Read 22935 times)

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Offline Trokair

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 8, 2011, 05:14:25 PM »
I am thinking of using my Tomb Stalker as a count as C’tan Shard and was wondering what two abilities would represent it best.

As for the other elites, I wish that Flayed Ones had kept or gained some special ability as right now all the other choices seem more appealing. Or is there a use I am not seeing?


« Last Edit: November 8, 2011, 05:16:50 PM by Trokair »
Sometimes, the best answer is a more interesting question.

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 9, 2011, 12:33:40 AM »
only real use I see for flayed ones is as a inexpensive melee unit, and even in that roll they arn't all that good.  If you you take Imotekh then you do get the bloodswarm scarabs that let you be more precise in their deepstriking, the only issue being that they are put on a random unit so if you want them to assault a vulnerable long fangs on the back table edge and the scarabs are on the grey hunters who are scrapping it out with your lychguard then it doesn't help much.

Other than that, yea there are just a lot better choices in the army, the 2 initiative really hurts their CC ability unless you're up against really weak models like guard or tau who can't hurt you much.

Overall, flayed ones are one of the biggest dissapointments in the new codex, they give them a really unique background story (they are outcasts even among necrons).  I think it would be cool if they had some nice special abilities but always gave the enemy a kill point at the end of the game (to show the other necrons either killing them or driving them off after the battle was over).

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 9, 2011, 11:28:42 AM »
The rules for reserves and deepstriking have the answers to that, pages 94-95 of the BrB

Reserving a unit is quantified with the line "players my choose not to deploy one or more of their units....." hence a unit in reserve is not deployed
Furthermore, down the page we have the sentence "Once all the units have been rolled for, the player chooses any one units and deploys it"

Deepstriking is simply a special method of deployment in which the unit MUST start the game in reserve so putting all that together:
Units in reserve are NOT deployed, the Deathstrikes choose their foe when deployed and that only happens AFTER they arrive from reserve, which happens to be Deepstriking in this case

Simples ;)

Thanks for explaining that clearly, I knew it was somewhere to be found :)

Ok so I really want to use Deathmarks because they look awesome, would give me a reason to buy a box of Immortals (and convert some leftover Warriors into Immortals with leftover bits) so what would pair well with them? It seems necessary to play to their strengths of "marking" a target for the to wound roll so perhaps adding in a Triarch Stalker to "target" the enemy that is "marked" will most certainly spell doom for them. Now do you want to footslog them or utilize the Night Scythe transport? We all know if the Night Scythe gets blown up before delivering it's cargo, the poor unit inside goes into reserves and has to walk onto your side of the table so if using Deathmarks you'd probably want to deepstrike the Night Scythe, then deploy from it on that turn. Once you deploy, you can pick the target to be marked and hope for the best. But if you're doing this, why not just deepstrike the Deathmarks on their own? You don't "have" to deepstrike on the enemy turn but having that Transport avaliable might be useful to reposition.

What about the optimum squad size? A small unit of five seems to fit well with me on initial thought. This gives them a smaller footprint for deepstrike and hopefully makes them less of a priority target (assuming their marked target is already dead so the enemy doesn't have to worry about protecting them).

Next comes a question about marked targets. Lets say you choose to mark a unit of Dire Avengers with an attached Farseer. If the Farseer leaves the unit, is it still marked? And thus if it joins another unit, is that new unit count as marked?

Offline Log

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 9, 2011, 12:24:41 PM »


Next comes a question about marked targets. Lets say you choose to mark a unit of Dire Avengers with an attached Farseer. If the Farseer leaves the unit, is it still marked? And thus if it joins another unit, is that new unit count as marked?

Using the same example, if that Farseer had Fortuned the Avengers and then left the unit, (it is generally accepted that) he does not take fortune away with him. So I would suggest the same would happen if the unit had been marked, it would stay with the unit.

Offline Zilverscale

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 9, 2011, 12:27:00 PM »


Next comes a question about marked targets. Lets say you choose to mark a unit of Dire Avengers with an attached Farseer. If the Farseer leaves the unit, is it still marked? And thus if it joins another unit, is that new unit count as marked?

Using the same example, if that Farseer had Fortuned the Avengers and then left the unit, (it is generally accepted that) he does not take fortune away with him. So I would suggest the same would happen if the unit had been marked, it would stay with the unit.

Could you mark the Farseer in the Dire Avenger unit?

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Offline croggy

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 9, 2011, 01:43:13 PM »
i agree it would stay with the unit and not transfer to the IC but one thing i will add is if you ar taking deathmarks you really need to take 3 units and mark 3 enemy units with them then systematically gun down each one

even against large ork mobe the death marks will be a great help
(3 units of min(5) would be getting 10 hits and 8-9 wounds a turn now against t4 thats not too bad at all)

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 9, 2011, 03:25:08 PM »
Using the same example, if that Farseer had Fortuned the Avengers and then left the unit, (it is generally accepted that) he does not take fortune away with him. So I would suggest the same would happen if the unit had been marked, it would stay with the unit.

Agreed but then the question comes up as...

Could you mark the Farseer in the Dire Avenger unit?

I think I forgot to put this in my original question. But can you mark an Independent Character that is already in a unit. Even if you can or can't, if an Independent Character is somehow Marked and then joins a unit, will you still gain the benefits shooting at the new combined unit?

Offline enlg

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 9, 2011, 05:37:31 PM »
^If not explicitly stated, generally rules concerning having extra bonuses vs. units are not transferred to squads of mixed models. Instead the rule is used when you are only targeting the model that you get bonuses against.

So you can still target the farseer and therefore wound him/her on a 2+, but only in close combat.

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2011, 11:54:56 PM »
About the Lychguard and Dispersion Shield. What do you think would be a better idea against an enemy unit firing AP4+ weapons at you within 6" range, using your Armor Save against wounds to lessen your casualties or to use the Invulnerable Save to rebound as many shots back at the enemy as possible? Obviously if the enemy has worse armor then the weapon's AP value it might be more worth it but in the end I'm not sure I would risk it considering how expensive the models are.

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2011, 12:47:41 AM »
About the Lychguard and Dispersion Shield. What do you think would be a better idea against an enemy unit firing AP4+ weapons at you within 6" range, using your Armor Save against wounds to lessen your casualties or to use the Invulnerable Save to rebound as many shots back at the enemy as possible? Obviously if the enemy has worse armor then the weapon's AP value it might be more worth it but in the end I'm not sure I would risk it considering how expensive the models are.

It would really depend on the situation.  your troops have a 1/6 less chance of surviving while 1/2 of the shots fired at you will be deflected back.  If you are confident your lich guard can handle them in close combat without a problem (they are guard/tau etc) then I would go for keeping your guys alive.  If the enemy is an active threat to your troops and it's worth risking one or two more casualties to take some of them out then go for it.  think it's on a case by case basis.

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2011, 01:06:52 AM »
It would really depend on the situation.  your troops have a 1/6 less chance of surviving while 1/2 of the shots fired at you will be deflected back.  If you are confident your lich guard can handle them in close combat without a problem (they are guard/tau etc) then I would go for keeping your guys alive.  If the enemy is an active threat to your troops and it's worth risking one or two more casualties to take some of them out then go for it.  think it's on a case by case basis.

I agree. I was trying to come up with some cases in my head where there would be a huge volume of fire to see if it could potentially make up for the possibility of taking more wounds. Even if you had a combined squad of 50 Guardsmen using First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire, you would probably reflect 12-13 shots back at them causing 8-9 wounds but take 12-13 wounds on your own Lychguard...Definit ely not worth it's points. But you probably wouldn't want to assault said 50 Guardsmen in the following turn anyway so let your Warriors or Immortals deal with them at range.

Basically always take the Armor Save! Let the Dispersion Shield try to reflect shots that could actually void your armor (and thus probably also the enemies). In the end though with such a small reflection bubble, most weapons will just try to stay outside of it, it's not like they'll need to get all that close unless assaulting. So make sure your Lychguard move close to units you don't have to worry about getting retaliation from so if anyone trying to stay out of the bubble shoots you, you can still reflect it at someone else.

Offline syth773

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2011, 07:08:49 AM »
do you think deathmarks are worth deepstriking in most of the time.  I tend to have bad luck with deepstriking in general, scatter dice are  usually not too kind to me and my opponents know how to cover decent sections of the board when I have a lot of deepstrike troops to discourage me trying to land too near.
In addition, with their special rule they land on the opponent's turn, which gives your opponent the chance to shoot at AND assault them before they can get a single shot off.

Anyone tried these guys out in practice yet, using their ethereal interception rule?

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2011, 02:15:55 PM »
Triarch stalkers with Heavy Guass cannon....


Having an effective AV of 13 until a pen hit, living metal, and targeting relay... for 165 pts is really quite impressive. In particular, the targeting relay could help a bit. With an average bs of 4, means that getting a re-roll-able 3+ is quite nice. I can see it being especially nice with the Tachyon arrow.

It is a great platform for the Heavy Guass cannon as well, giving it a nice effective range of 42''...

I am looking at having two of these running in a list, could help bring down a high priority target.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Baron Wastelands

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2011, 04:18:31 PM »
In addition, with their special rule they land on the opponent's turn, which gives your opponent the chance to shoot at AND assault them before they can get a single shot off.

Don't forget they don't have to use the special rule; you can still deep strike them normally. But I see the ethereal interception ability as useful, just not necessarily to plonk them down next to the enemy unit, within assault range.

Firstly, it avoids the situation where your opponent is deploying reserves (even deepstriking them) while your reserve rolls are against you. You can bring more to the table at the same time your opponent does.

Secondly, you get to have a normal turn with them immediately following, rather than being restricted by deep strike penalties.

But the real use I can see is tactical deployment to immediately counter your opponent's threat. Assault troops just deep-striked behind your lines, about to get at some juicy target? Immediately deploy a squad of deathmarks within 12", (the other unit can't assault from deep strike most likely), and then have a full turn of rapid fire shooting at them before they can close with anything. A lot of firepower just appeared on a flank, about to tear a hole in whatever you have advancing carefully along that edge? Drop some deathmarks down, and either draw their fire, or be there to return in kind if they choose to go ahead with plan A.

There's a lot of playtesting ahead, of course; but I see this as potentially very useful, if used with a little thought. Enough to convince me to convert up a squad, anyway  :D

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Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2011, 07:11:09 PM »
Triarch stalkers with Heavy Guass cannon....


Having an effective AV of 13 until a pen hit, living metal, and targeting relay... for 165 pts is really quite impressive. In particular, the targeting relay could help a bit. With an average bs of 4, means that getting a re-roll-able 3+ is quite nice. I can see it being especially nice with the Tachyon arrow.

It is a great platform for the Heavy Guass cannon as well, giving it a nice effective range of 42''...

I am looking at having two of these running in a list, could help bring down a high priority target.

Honestly I can't justify spending any points on a single twin linked heavy gauss cannon over a 2 shot multi melta that also is a heavy flamer... Sure you'll gain a bit of range but it's our only melta weapon in the game that is also dual purpose! Luckily for a Walker, the Quantum Shielding will help in combat and even without good Initiative, you can hold up a lot of enemies with less then S7 if necessary.

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2011, 07:22:19 PM »
I don't see the need for melta weapons when we have guass. The short range on meltas, meaning that you'd have to be in the same range as a charge from scarabs - I don't see this melta weapon as being needed. The fact that you only get one shot is really the biggest draw back. But you can use it to snipe at a squad, and then target relay to focus fire on that unit.

For me, units should complement each other, not operate on their own. If I need it to take a tank out, then I will rely on scarabs and guass, which can still benefit from target relay.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Kaiju Senso

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2011, 09:10:26 PM »
Coming from experience, Gauss is difficult to Destroy vehicles with. While teaming up Entropic with other weapons is nice and all, why have the need to waste multiple units of fire when a two shot multimelta can do it once and for good. Plus the multitasking of a Heavy Flamer and a tarpitting walker give the Stalker a great multipurpose role. It just seems a little expensive to keep in the back shooting off a lousy lascannon just to let other units shoot better. That's my take on it anyway :)

Offline RezZzeD

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2011, 10:40:41 PM »
Apparently people on some forums (not so many on our beloved 40konline) have been speaking ill of the Triarch Praetorians because they are slow (low I), do not have many attacks for their points (in comparison) and just don’t match up.  So let’s do a brief look at them in their defense.

For the equivalent FOC slot and point cost of a tactical terminator (because marines are the most common comparison), Praetorians have identical WS, BS, and W.  We have +1 S, T, and Ld.  On the down side, they have -1 A, -2 I, and a slightly worse Armor Save.  Terminators also have an invulnerable save, but we have a matching Reanimation Protocol, which is awesome if the attack does not ignore our armor because they effectively stack (sort of).  That is where our comparison of stats ends.

Now let’s delve deeper into the abilities of the Praetorians.  They are Jump Infantry, allowing us to Deep Strike and giving us movement enough to launch an 18” (12”+6”; not the same turn that we DS) assault, vaulting over terrain and models alike.  This is a much better assault threat range than those terminators we were being compared to earlier.  “But you have such a low Initiative and low number of attacks,” you say?  We have this really cool “rod” that has a short range, matching strength to our profile, armor ignoring shot.  So, if we know how to correctly use our fast moving, resilient, assault-y units, we know that this is equivalent to another cc attack, before anyone gets to even look at their statline initiative and that hits on a 3+, regardless of your WS (which against MEQ’s, in combat we’d hit on a 4+).

So now we’ve shot our target from within assault range, what to do next? Well, we could have that unit of scarabs move 18”-24” to tar pit them, or we can do the assaulting ourselves. We have most likely eliminated part of the opposing unit (yes, I’ve done the math hammer, it’s boring to read), reducing their number of attacks if we do assault, so, being an informed player, make a decision to attack or not on your own.  But please don’t leave them open to assault, tie that unit up with something else if you don’t assault them.  If you are going to put Praetorians in cc, do it on your terms, you are jump infantry after all.

Now, remember, if you do assault, they hit slow but strong.  They’re faster than those power fists and thunder hammers, but slower than those lightning claws, and they don’t get to come back until combat has been resolved.  Fortunately, they won’t be running, even if they lose combat, unlike our lychguard brethren or terminator counterparts.  So Praetorians can’t be swept, but they do have to stand and fight.  This is good or bad, as with any unit, but they have the leadership and armor save to back it up also.

The goal is to cripple the enemy unit in the first assault turn, because after that you are stuck with one attack per model per turn, and it’s not too pretty.

So, other notes. 
  • Give them a Destroyer Lord with Res Orb and War Scythe for some real fun.  Now they get back up more often, have some additional kill potential in cc from the war scythe, still can’t be swept, and can still get the 18” assault (12” + 6”) and Deep Strike. 
    Sure, they still hit slow, but they’ll feel you.
  • No their statline doesn’t show it, but they have 3 attacks on the charge, one just happens to always hit on 3+, regardless of the target’s WS, and before they get to do anything initiative based (because its a shooting attack, duh).  Unfortunately in subsequent rounds they only get to hit once.  So kill them right the first time.
  • “But we have stormbolters with a really nice range,” you say? We have plenty of stuff at 24” too, but Praetorians are jump infantry and can vault terrain separating us and still kill you.  Even if some Bolter shots make it through our armor, Praetorians can still get up.  Praetorians are not a shooty unit! Leave that to someone else.
  • My suggestion is to pair them with some destroyers.  Good strength, good armor penetration, standard range, tough, and equally as fast.  Destroyers can lay down the pulverizing fire while the Praetorians close for the kill.  Not a cheap combo, but looks good to me.
  • Another idea is wraiths.  While wraiths will make you hit first, you still only have one attack in subsequent rounds, so make it count.  I personally like this combo less than the Destroyers unless I’m up against really fast power weapons or poison.
  • What about the voidblades and particle blasters?  A pistol that is equal strength to our rods but with the ap of a gauss flayer? Not so much.  But it does give that extra attack in cc.  Voidblades are nifty and all, but I’d rather spend 25 less points for more entropic strike attacks.  I think Praetorians are over priced to do the job of scarabs and only have a chance of ignoring armor.
So in conclusion, no, Praetorians are not terminators and do not fulfill the same role as terminators, but I think they are definitely worth their value for what they do.  This post is not to say that Lychguard are not worth it, because face it, they’re awesome.  But Praetorians are much faster and a great reactionary unit. And yes, there are other comparisons besides terminators, but it’s an equivalent cost and just simplifies it.



Offline Benis

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2011, 11:02:54 PM »
the Krikkit robots... sorry, Triarch Praetorians really isn't especially impressive, granted they aren't terrible but it isn't a far stretch. They are exceptionally expensive, their combat output is too limited to be able to solve any kind of worthy situation and their ranged attack is also hamstrung by the lack of range or impressive rate of fire. If you want to use their shooting power you risk getting assaulted since no solid target will actually be destroyed by their shooting and if you want to assault you lack the amount of attacks and initiative to get clear of the fight and they simply aren't cheap enough for either case.

Are they terrible? No, but they are severly overpriced with seriously lame capabilities. You could use them as a source of AP2, try removing a few wounds on monstrous creatures and clear up under-strength squads but that hardly is something that 200+ points units should be limited to.  :(

They are quite cool though and a fun choice but don't kid yourself - they are the Swooping Hawks of the Necrons codex.

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: New Necron Codex - Elites Discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2011, 11:13:17 PM »
They are hardly swooping hawks - they are rather hard to bring down, and can get back up on top of that. If you want a fair amount of attacks swap fpr the voidblades and particle casters. Keep in mind they can deepstrike with the particle casters as well, making them a threat to enemy armor if needed. I think the praetorians default mode is to utilize the voidblade and caster combo, and only rely on the rod of covenent for specific plans. I'm thinking of doing some fun things with them and tomb spyders working together. Should be a blast.

 


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