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Author Topic: 3rd world countries: The problem and the answer  (Read 5079 times)

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Offline Zim

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2002, 11:53:59 PM »
Helloooooooooo Red Herring!

Someone's a little bitter.  Everyone is perfectly aware of the problems inherent in the American system.  We are selfish, arrogant, gluttoness, and largely clueless about the rest of the world.  But you know what?  We're also the sole great bastion of freedom in the world.  When you ask a starving Chilean where he wants to live, he doesn't say Italy, or Spain, or even Canada.  He says AMERICA.  We deal out our fare share of bullamphetamine parrot to the rest of the world.  But you know what else?  We're also responsible for the vast majority of the cleanup, and the creation of a world stable enough for your little experiments with socialism.

People who base their assesments of what is "right" and "wrong" with global politics on a very narrow amount of experience.  I have experience with capitolism.  I live in America, in a socially liberal but financially conservative middle class rural New England family, and I'm happy.  I want for very, very little.  I also look very closely at my government, much closer than most people, and I GUARANTEE closer than anyone who doesn't or has never lived in this country.  I have no problem with yours or any other country being socialist.  I just don't want it in mine.  I have known people living under socialized healthcare, socialized utilities, and luxeries taxed to hell and back.  And that isn't for me.  I don't want to be 75 and walk into a hospitol for dialysis and be turned away.

Socialism's a great idea.  In theory.  But it requires two things to be succesful.

1: Brutally efficient but free government, encouraging the individual over the Marxist "good of the people" of which there exists none in the world today.

2: The means to provide for ALL of its citizens, of which there is not enough.

Capitolism, on the other hand, serves as the vessel through which we acquire and grow, to come closer to the day when we may adopt egalitarian ideals.  But until that day, we have to remind ourselves that while we are all created equal, either through circumstance or choice, we are not all equal.  Some of us are born into bondage.  Some of us are born into wealth and power.  I was born somewhere in between.  

While we should strive in every aspect of our lives to close the gap, it should not be by bringing down the powerful, but by raising up the impoverished.  And to do that we need growth, discovery, and production, things which socialism is not very good at.  The greatest motivator that exists is money, the drive to become better than your neighbor.  I didn't write the rules, that's just the way it is.  A nice happy Star Trek inspired socialist paradise may be the destination, but capitolism is the vessel.  And there ain't no shortcuts.

And when did the US ever say that it was encouraging us to "take" these despot-ruled nations?  Or the nations we save from being conquered?  Did we ever say that Requierimento was a good thing? Or the Columbian exchange?  Of course not.  We grew up.  Did we annex Japan, Kuwait, Afghanistan?  No, we made sure that they were free societies.  We don't fight to take, we fight to liberate.  And everyone could use a bit of that sentiment.

End rant.  For now.

Oh, and before I forget, as far as being a malevolent, conquering imperialist, you all can kiss my great-great-grandfather's dirt poor working class French-Canadian immigrant ass.
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Offline Jester

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2002, 08:09:19 AM »
I would like to point out that a majority of the debt incurred by 3rd world nations was done decades ago by corrupt leaders with no intention of ever paying it back. Today the debts incurred are debts incurred to pay the interest on other debts!

Abolishing the Debts and letting them start from scratch is really the only way

I agree that you cna't give them fish, you need to teach them TO fish, but how can they do that when they give everything they have to pay off the sins of people who robbed them blind and are long dead?

(Says the Canadian. Canada no longer has ANY outstanding 3rd world debts, and give No Aid internationaly.)

(for those of you who don't take economics Aid = Load. Canada gives grants which is just hey, look have some money!)

Offline BoyProdigy

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2002, 08:14:21 AM »
Global Socialism will happen one day. I give it around 500 years or so. Capitolism just make the poor people poorer and the rich richer. After a while the poor people will revolt against the rich and win by numbers. It will be like a 100000000 nid point army VS and 500 point SM army.

Offline Helmed Horror

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2002, 08:25:28 AM »
But what if the nids were just the most basic troops and the SM's had the best equiptment known to man they might have a chance. Only if they got reinforcements...
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Offline BoyProdigy

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2002, 08:26:18 AM »
but they wouldn't no matter what.

Offline Helmed Horror

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2002, 08:31:50 AM »
The gods might want the space Marines to win and roll sixs for every thing that needs to be a high roll and the other rolls be what they need to be. But yes I still think they wouldn't win but that scenario would never happen
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Offline Zim

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2002, 11:10:04 AM »
The world will not end up a socialist republic because "the oppressed" rise up against their "capitolistic oppressors."  The "Great Proletariot Revolution" that was supposed to free the world from me and my greedy imperialist bretheren didn't even last a century.  And you know why?  Because they were more interested in fighting our "corruption" than providing their people with luxeries like "food" and "clothing."  If we ever convert to any form of global socialism, it'll be when we can AFFORD to provided for EVERYONE equally, and even then only for the necessities of life.  That means food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, education, mental healthcare (the world would be a better place if everyone saw a psychologist once a month), police pretection, and just enough free entertainment to keep a person from going nuts.  So far the only thing we have is free entertainment.  The rest takes MONEY, something which requires a CAPITOLIST at the helm to produce.

And yes, the world could do no better than to take a page from Canada's book and adopt their policies on foreign debt and aid.  I'd get on my soapbox about this, too, but my government decided to build an orbital pea-shooter instead of paying off our debt.  *GROAN*
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Offline Wraithboss

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2002, 12:48:02 PM »
Q: What do you call a boomerang that never comes back?

A: A "stick".
___________________ ___________________ _

Q: What do you call a loan that's never gonna be repaid?

A: A "grant". ;D


You know, if the U.S. defaulted on the money WE owe other countries, there would be Global Chaos, I'm thinking, even if we simultaneously "forgave" all the nations that owe our country money...

That's just my opinion though, I don't profess to have a degree in international economics. I will say however, that no corporation that ran its "accounts payable", and "accounts recievable", the way that Nations do would stay  in `biz for long.;)


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« Last Edit: March 15, 2002, 01:25:20 PM by Wraithboss »
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Offline Zim

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2002, 01:18:24 PM »
That's because nations have a monopoly on the system, and they get to re-write the rules to best suit their current agenda.  But, hey, it works, we're still here.  And wasting time talking about world-spanning geo-politics on a message board meant to talk about the merits of playing with little plastic men, I might add.
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Offline odinblade

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2002, 03:47:34 PM »
The US government is the most effective and best BUSINESS there is.  It makes however much money it wants with taxes, off millions of people, plus it can raise its salaries whenever it wants.  It has the ultimate ability to launder money through red tape and if anyone tries to stop it then it just calls them dangerous and anti-freedom.  Of course, the people who live here are the most wealthy overall (not per capita) in the world and have many more things than anyone else.  There are many problems, but we are so prosperous we can go on without it.  So the rich get richer and the poor get poorer - Even JEsus said the poor will always be with us, so let's stop giving them fish and they'll either learn to fish or die.

About the global socialism - IMPOSSIBLE!!!  Even if only 2 people were left alive it would not be true socialism becasue one would eventally become the dominant one and the leader.  THe US, contrary to what it wants you to think, is BORDELINE socialism.  Ever really look at how much the government pervades our lives?  It's scary, BUT IT WORKS!!!  I dont like much of it, but oh well.

And that is my opinion on politics and the US.

Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2002, 10:07:50 PM »
the rich get richer, the poor get poorer
the poor should try harder

a rather harsh and blunt statement, yes, but that is what education is for, oppertunities for all. private schools you say? worse than public i say
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Offline Matrinix

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2002, 11:59:40 PM »
Jegod If it were up to me I'd say forget about trying to help all of those 3rd world countries and stay to ourselves.. us an Britian.. Maybe we wouldn't be the center of attention by being the world's policeman, and trying to keep peace everywhere... just keep our lands and our possesions safe. Like look at Austrailia... they stay out of everyone elses buisness and people leave them alone too :-P I betcha they're gonna be a world power one day LOL

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2002, 02:48:18 AM »
...hmmm... but what would happen (long and short term) if all international help was compeletly withdrawn and they were left to fend for themselves?

Offline Matrinix

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2002, 10:00:02 AM »
Ohhh well we'd stop sending funds to other countries and worry about what is affecting us first.. pay off all of our depts to anyone if we have any and call it a day.. Let them handle thier own problems. There's so many factions in the world and we're trying to be goody goody with all of them but there's no way without stepping on someone else's toes.

Offline Niran of Asha An

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2002, 04:53:38 PM »
The problem isn't about teaching someone how to fish, everyone knows how to throw dynamite into the water, the problem is that there aren't enough fish.  While directly supressing local birthrates is much too extreme it would solve many problems.

ps. zim, i'd vote you into office.  you seem to be gainign a lot of online support, ever read Ender's Game?
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Offline Halberd-Blue

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2002, 07:25:21 PM »
I say we... TAKE THEM OVER!  j/k but the reason GW's stuff is so expensive is that they make their stuff in england... not a 3rd world country.  Although, this is just my opinion, but giving stuff to a 3rd world country is like during the Reformation.  People didn't want to pay to fix up a church that they were never gonna go to, so they branched into a bunch of different sub-religions.  Thats just my opinion, but if I donated to a fund for 3rd world country, it would only be if I lived there.  I don't want to sound cruel, but some people are like me (like my social studies teacher).
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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2002, 02:35:07 AM »
again, and put lots of thought into the answer everyone, what would happen if we completely withdrew all our support, stopped going there, stopped getting stuff from there, cut it completely off from the rest of the world. What would happen?

Offline odinblade

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2002, 05:39:36 AM »
At first it would probably keep begging for help.  Then there would be blasts from europe at us.  There might even be some terrorist attacks (which, knowing are country, would probably make us give money again.  I know I sound like the taliban but in general we are weak.  Our politicians care more about their jobs than our country.).  Finally, after seeing that we are not going to help, they might actually do something themselves.  Good for them.

Offline Nevinyraal

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2002, 11:13:10 AM »
" I say nuke 'em from orbit...only way to be sure"

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Re:3rd world countries: The problem and the answer
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2002, 12:53:48 PM »
That's excellent!  :D I was gonna come and post that despite the fact I may be flamed for it.

Great (sick) minds think alike.

The only way of removing people from poverty is by removing the people in poverty.

 


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