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Main => Background => Topic started by: CODE BLACK on July 11, 2012, 11:13:49 AM

Title: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: CODE BLACK on July 11, 2012, 11:13:49 AM
It's never a question I've thought before, but as the title says, who drives space marine tanks?

It doesn't seem to say in the codex, or at least I can't find the answer. They don't seem to say where they fit in the standard chapter organisation.

Obviously the pilots of stormtalons are techmarines, that's explicitly stated.

There's a special character (Chronus) who's a tank commander but not a techmarine, but then the tank commanders that come in the sets are covered in techmarine iconography.

The codex also says that chapters typically have a rhino for every squad, so that would be 90 rhinos at least, but I can't imagine there being 90+ techmarines in a chapter. In fact it states in the codex that the ultramarines maintain 27 techmarines.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: travisb7 on July 11, 2012, 11:29:03 AM
Specially trained Space Marines drive/pilot the Chapter's vehicles. The iconography is of the Adeptus Mechanicus as they are fully trained in the operation of their vehicles by this organization.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: UselessSidekick on July 11, 2012, 12:39:29 PM
I have read somewhere that it's usually the seventh company that drives most of the vehicles I will try and find it probably on wiki or a site like that :-/ so not the most reliable source. But even if it is like you said that's 90+ marines for the rhinos but what about the rest of the armoury? I dont think the 1000 marine cap in each chapter fits the bill anymore especially when each tank needs a commander, driver and gunner at the least
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Benis on July 11, 2012, 04:40:38 PM
It is stated that this task usually falls to the reserve companies (specifically the Ninth) and chapter serfs who failed to become a Space Marine very late in the transformation process.

The Seventh company is specifically tasked with driving Land Speeders but not vehicles in general.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Ludo on July 11, 2012, 05:02:12 PM
Most chapters don't have large armories and the rhinos/razorbacks are for the battle companies 2-5.  I always assumed that they came from the tactical reserve company.  Two squads could drive around an entire battle company.

I also think we field more tanks in a game than most chapters use in regular battles.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on July 11, 2012, 05:11:21 PM
Most chapters don't have large armories and the rhinos/razorbacks are for the battle companies 2-5.  I always assumed that they came from the tactical reserve company.  Two squads could drive around an entire battle company.

I also think we field more tanks in a game than most chapters use in regular battles.

I'm not sure on the actual ratio, but yes - it's important to keep in mind that tabletop =/= fluff. If it did, Space Marines would lose their officers a bit too often, for one thing.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Lachdonin on July 11, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
Certian specialised or highly revered vehicles are sometimes piloted by Techmarines. The Storm Raven, for instance, and i recall from the days of the current gen Land Raider's release it was also stated it was Techmarine driven.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Guildmage Aech on July 12, 2012, 11:58:20 AM
I dont think the 1000 marine cap in each chapter fits the bill anymore especially when each tank needs a commander, driver and gunner at the least

There never was a limit of 1000 marines. Thats just a general guideline for the marines in the main companies. It doesn't include command staff such as the chapter master, captains, the librarians, chaplains, apothecaries, techmarines and tech adepts who're part of the armoury and so on as they aren't strictly part of the fighting body of the chapter.

And marine tanks enjoy a high level of automation, a chimera might have a commander, driver and gunner but a rhino/razorback has a single marine, or possibly two depending on configuration. Similarly heavy tanks like predators and land raiders have automatic everything, so you only need a driver and commander/gunner. Marines are hardcore, they multi-task!
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Ludo on July 12, 2012, 03:12:36 PM
And marine tanks enjoy a high level of automation, a chimera might have a commander, driver and gunner but a rhino/razorback has a single marine, or possibly two depending on configuration. Similarly heavy tanks like predators and land raiders have automatic everything, so you only need a driver and commander/gunner. Marines are hardcore, they multi-task!
[/quote]

Except those pintle mounted storm bolters and multi meltas on land raiders.  They are too much for the machine spirit and require a techmarine to fire them...
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Koval, Master Verispex on July 12, 2012, 03:37:00 PM
And marine tanks enjoy a high level of automation, a chimera might have a commander, driver and gunner but a rhino/razorback has a single marine, or possibly two depending on configuration. Similarly heavy tanks like predators and land raiders have automatic everything, so you only need a driver and commander/gunner. Marines are hardcore, they multi-task!

Except those pintle mounted storm bolters and multi meltas on land raiders.  They are too much for the machine spirit and require a techmarine to fire them...
Not necessarily, although having a Techmarine fire them can be justified from a fluff perspective as either wanting to improve the weapon's accuracy, or wanting to get stuck in while having a good view :P
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Ghostofman on July 12, 2012, 03:58:19 PM
Some of the vehicles that require a higher level of training and experience to operate seem to have some kind of Tech-adept marines at the helm pretty regularly. While these could certainly be tech-marines, it's also possible that there is a middle ground of marines that attend a Mechanicus sponsored school/course that focuses on vehicle operation and basic field expedient repairs and preventive maintenance. You know, pre-flight checks, emergency procedures and oil changes,  but not the full "here's how to completely rebuild the engine". Think of something like Warrant Officer pilots. If nothing else this would explain the mechanicus bits we get... Sort of a "Here, you completed the vehicle crewers course, as a reward you get a mechanicus icon and a small can of red paint. Go nuts."

But as Hymirl said, Tech marines (or the tech marines lite) may or may not count toward the marines chapter "cap." One thing that is clear is that in the Imperium, bureaucracy trumps common sense all the time. The Decree Passive was no doubt intended to strip the church of any military forces to prevent self destructive crusades and religiously motivated infighting. But since the thing said "men under arms" some Ministorium lawyer type came in and was all "oh-ho-ho the Sister of Battle are WOMEN under arms, and that totally different in every way possible... because... you know... boobs... and stuff..." (yes that's exactly how I envision it being worded). So there's precedent for some space marine type saying that since tech-marines are technically "non-combat support personnel that just happen to be able to fight really really well when the need arises, which just happens to be all the time" they shouldn't count against the marine chapter size caps. A slightly more sane argument would be that techmarine vehicle crews are tallied as part of the vehicle inventory instead of formal rosters, since the vehicle can't function without them (aside from the odd land raider of course) and their training too specialized to waste filling out tactical teams.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on July 12, 2012, 04:08:18 PM
Back in the old days, if the Techmarine of a Land Raider was killed in the battle then the vehicle would have to be reconsecrated during the battle before it could be used again. They do say though that vastly abbreviated rituals were used if the battlefield was still, as you say, lively with the full rituals conducted at a later date. Of course, this was also during the time that the Imperial Guard had their own Land Raiders and that Marine Land Raiders were either built by the Adept Mech or by the Marine Chapter themselves at their own forges.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on July 12, 2012, 04:45:44 PM
Quote
in the Imperium, bureaucracy trumps common sense all the time.

I think the various organizations do a good job circumventing the bureaucracy for pragmatic reasons most of the time. ;)
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: myles on July 13, 2012, 02:00:31 PM
... and that Marine Land Raiders were either built by the Adept Mech or by the Marine Chapter themselves at their own forges.

Despite all these other changes, I thought this was still the case? Where else do Space Marines get their Land Raiders now?
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on July 13, 2012, 02:08:16 PM
I thought they were now made only by Adept Mech Forgeworlds rather than by the Marines themselves. My mistake if otherwise.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: myles on July 14, 2012, 02:39:30 AM
Well, I can't be sure, I don't recall seeing anything that says they're no longer produced by the Marines themselves. But that was always a relatively small number to begin with, wasn't it?

I just thought you meant that Land Raiders are rolling off of Hive World assembly lines now or something, I'm glad to see that isn't the case...
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Ludo on July 14, 2012, 06:41:00 AM
I think the more difficult patterns, like land raiders, are only made on certain forgeworlds. Mars is also the largest producer of land raiders in the imperium
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Becarem on July 14, 2012, 09:36:47 PM
Quote
There never was a limit of 1000 marines. Thats just a general guideline for the marines in the main companies. It doesn't include command staff such as the chapter master, captains, the librarians, chaplains, apothecaries, techmarines and tech adepts who're part of the armoury and so on as they aren't strictly part of the fighting body of the chapter.

This.  Chapters were never limited to strictly 1000 men.  Not only would there be graduating classes of scouts of slightly different sizes (marines in all but power armor, say), but command staff, specialists (tech marines, apothecaries, etc), and advisors of all types.  I think that even the most devout warrior would see the pragmatism in having another recruit squad or two, ready if not deployed.

I have always felt that the number "thousand" was to be taken liberally, both in chapters and marines per chapter.  If the space marines serve the Imperium so well, then it would take little convincing to get the governing High Lords to permit some leeway in their recruitment.  Rate of attrition, and all.  Plus, there are chapters who consist of a few thousand, such as Black Templars.  In the Badab War, it only became apparent that the Astral Claws were "violating" this limit when they reached four to five thousand...yet they still thought of themselves as loyal.

Even then, I believe the number "thousand" is supposed to be more reflective of the dark age mindset in the 40th millenium. Rather than try to memorize the exact numbers and dispositions of a largely independent fighting force, citizens and soldiers alike would be told, "thousand", because it is easy to envision.  Most of the fluff is told as interpretation instead of fact, anyway.

tl;dr - Poetic use of the number "thousand" is not necessarily literal.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on July 15, 2012, 10:45:33 AM
Even then, I believe the number "thousand" is supposed to be more reflective of the dark age mindset in the 40th millenium. Rather than try to memorize the exact numbers and dispositions of a largely independent fighting force, citizens and soldiers alike would be told, "thousand", because it is easy to envision.  Most of the fluff is told as interpretation instead of fact, anyway.

tl;dr - Poetic use of the number "thousand" is not necessarily literal.

I'm not so sure of that. If there is one thing the HH book series added to the universe that wasn't arguably ill-conceived, it's the idea that the Chapter had previously existed as a maneuver unit within the legions, a unit of approximately a thousand fighting men, somewhat similar to a battalion or somesuch. Regardless, the idea of a thousand fighting men isn't unique to the 40th millennium.

Again, this is one more way the Imperium limits the capability of its various constituent parts. Imperial Guard commanders do not have access to interplanetary transports. Navy Captains and Admirals do not have access to substantial fighting forces to occupy planets, the Ecclesiarchy wasn't supposed to have access to any military forces (they cheated... but their forces still aren't humongous) and finally the Astartes are limited in numbers.

Fact is, we know that marines aren't incorruptible. If anything, the prospect of a marine chapter going rogue or to chaos is such a terrifying prospect that it's better to keep them somewhat limited in the case of them doing so. Chapters who refuse this are either the subject of much controversy, or supported by ancient claims to their organizational body, or somehow working with some kind of "alibi" against corruption. (the Black Templars' constant crusading and lack of a chapter homeworld might count as this, though they still seem fairly controversial.)

Point is; the numbers 1000 is meant as a standing rule, but at the same time, some leeway and turning of eyes is provided on a case-by-case basis. The Imperium Is A Big Place, after all.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Koval, Master Verispex on July 15, 2012, 12:51:22 PM
I'm not so sure of that. If there is one thing the HH book series added to the universe that wasn't arguably ill-conceived, it's the idea that the Chapter had previously existed as a maneuver unit within the legions, a unit of approximately a thousand fighting men, somewhat similar to a battalion or somesuch. Regardless, the idea of a thousand fighting men isn't unique to the 40th millennium.
The Heresy books didn't add that, Gav Thorpe did in Angels Of Darkness. Astelan talks about being a Chapter Master, so considering that Astelan lived back when there were Legions, you do begin to see the Chapter as a sort of batallion-level structure within the framework of the Legion before the Heresy series took it and ran with it.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Becarem on July 16, 2012, 07:02:21 AM
I'm not so sure of that. If there is one thing the HH book series added to the universe that wasn't arguably ill-conceived, it's the idea that the Chapter had previously existed as a maneuver unit within the legions, a unit of approximately a thousand fighting men, somewhat similar to a battalion or somesuch. Regardless, the idea of a thousand fighting men isn't unique to the 40th millennium.

Again, this is one more way the Imperium limits the capability of its various constituent parts. Imperial Guard commanders do not have access to interplanetary transports. Navy Captains and Admirals do not have access to substantial fighting forces to occupy planets, the Ecclesiarchy wasn't supposed to have access to any military forces (they cheated... but their forces still aren't humongous) and finally the Astartes are limited in numbers.

Fact is, we know that marines aren't incorruptible. If anything, the prospect of a marine chapter going rogue or to chaos is such a terrifying prospect that it's better to keep them somewhat limited in the case of them doing so. Chapters who refuse this are either the subject of much controversy, or supported by ancient claims to their organizational body, or somehow working with some kind of "alibi" against corruption. (the Black Templars' constant crusading and lack of a chapter homeworld might count as this, though they still seem fairly controversial.)

Point is; the numbers 1000 is meant as a standing rule, but at the same time, some leeway and turning of eyes is provided on a case-by-case basis. The Imperium Is A Big Place, after all.

In an age when incense is considered a required component of a toolbox, who is to say what kind of mathematic accuracy we can expect?  :P

The reader-response approach to 40k storytelling (i.e. role-playing as a scribe reviewing files from a crumbling, occasionally inaccurate database) has always been one of the most intriguing aspects of the fluff to me.  This is the reason I enjoy conflicting versions of events in disputed canon.  It allows for discussion and debate among peers as to the "truth".  (Much as might "actually occur" in the era before someone pulls a bolt pistol, heh.) 

I totally agree that a subjective interpretation of "1000 men" is more my own pet theory developed while reading the fluff than concretely supported by text.  I just happen to prefer some subjectivity without imposing on anyone else's world view.  To say there are exactly 1000 men per chapter is a totally legitimate stance, although I would prefer the word "roughly" in place of "exactly".  If there are significant deviations from these dictates, they probably come in the form of a byzantine monitoring structure of how many chapters that exist at any given time; I highly doubt any but the Emperor actually knows how many chapters there truly are per minute. (Why do people feel the need to make 1000 chapter lists? It's just going to change when warp storm Abbadon rolls in, or seasonal Tyranid showers blow through, or whatever!) Off topic, sorry.

As currently being discussed on another thread, the fans are given many guidelines and options in what to favorably interpret as truth.  Anything is possible.  Three friends can have four vastly differing conceptions of the scale and type of conflicts they face, and while each are beholden to their own pet theories, they can all share an exciting game with each other.  The strength of the 40k setting is letting the players fill in the blanks with their imagination.

My answer is tank drivers drive those tanks, who else?  ;D
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Sir_Godspeed on July 16, 2012, 05:17:46 PM
I don't see anyone actually disagreeing with you when saying that the number 1000 is a rough. Oh, and thanks for the soliloquy, I guess.

With that being said; while there might not be exactly a thousand Chapters, I disagree with the notion that they are as fleety as the number of marines within a Chapter. Space Marine foundings are fairly monumental occurences, and the loss of one is quite severe as well. It's true that there have been Space Marine forces that have been thought lost that have returned, but that's something very much out of the ordinary. There's not a Chapter dead every minute, as it were.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: IainC on July 17, 2012, 03:50:25 AM
There are quite explicit references in older fluff sources that the 1000 mrine nominal strength of a chapter does not include supernumeraries like the officers, vehicle pilots, Techmarines and so on. The structure is similar to the Roman legion where the paper strength only counted legionaries and not the Centurions, Optios Signifers etc.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Locarno on September 18, 2012, 08:53:38 AM
Somewhat a thread necromancy, but relevant (honest!).

There is a specific body of marines (not necessarily techmarines) attached to the armoury organisation itself - it's the same body Sgt. Chronus commands in the Ultramarines - a "body of about 30 men, answerable to no-one but the chapter master" or some such wording.

Essentially, the Ultramarines maintain dedicated tank crews - enough to man up at least two or three squadrons of whatever tank pattern is required - without drawing manpower from a company's nominal ten squads.

The current Ultramarines and Blood Angels org charts give you a good feel for the number of supernumaries.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: ozzfann0666 on October 3, 2012, 07:04:01 PM
And let's also not forget that 1000-strong is the nominal number. Look at the Crimson Fists, their numbers are only somewhere between 400-600 if I recall correctly (don't hold me to that) but they still have tanks that are used and need to be crewed. Back in the day, (3rd edition back) vehicle entries actually listed who crewed each vehicle (and If I recall, could possibly get out of the vehicle if something happened to it). The way I have always envisioned it is that a separate group of marines exist specifically to crew vehicles. Just like the 10 companies add up to 1000 men, each company is at least plus 6 for the captain and command squad. The Librarius and Reclusiam have their own numbers. If I recall correctly, the Ultramarines have Tigurius plus around 27 other librarians. Then there's the chapter master and his honor guard. I think even the Techmarines have their own detachment. In actuality, a codex chapter,  even one as rigid as the Ultramarines, has closer to 1100 men at optimal strength, rather than 1000. So it could be either actual Techmarines, or perhaps an unlisted detachment that exists purely to crew vehicles.
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: commissar_bob on October 14, 2012, 03:04:38 PM
Im thinking that the 1000 people is hard to keep so im thinking the extra guys on the side who pass the scouts are put into tanks ..or because they took out the cybernetics rule is the guys with lost limbs and stuff who arnt 100% that are in the tank
Title: Re: Who drives Space Marine tanks?
Post by: Koval, Master Verispex on October 15, 2012, 03:46:38 AM
That's just daft. Driving in the real world often requires all four of your limbs to do it properly. Driving a tank in the 41st Millennium is likely to be similar. Driving a tank with either a missing limb, or a bionic that you haven't gotten used to, is going to be extremely difficult and you'll probably stuff it up at exactly the wrong moment.

As people have said already in this thread, the 1000 Marines thing is just something that sounds good, because it's hard to make "one thousand, one hundred and something" sound dramatic. So naturally the business of driving tanks falls to Space Marines within the armoury, rather than those who actually comprise a particular Company.