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Offline Addinarr

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The Unalienable Rights
« on: April 12, 2002, 11:05:55 PM »
Our Government. Founded by patriots through their sweat and blood. They lived and died for their country and created such things like our UnAlienable Rights, which on the contrary, are quite Alienable. However, ignoring this small flaw and accepting this as an ideal or faith, would it not seem reasonable that these so-called 'rights' be available not only to Americans, but also to ALL people of the world, regardless of race, religion, or national allegience?

If so, how can it be that we are turning a blind eye toward them? Or when we do take notice, it is through tinted glasses? Surely the Aphgan and Palestine people also have these rights? Our ph-so-righteous-and-brilliant-leader would have us believe that they are sadistic dastardly savages, driven to madness and insanity in order to commit the acts we conveniently label 'terrorism'. But are they truly?

How different are they from our Founding Fathers? After all, they're fighting against vastly superior foes. In the Palestinians' case, they are armed with nothing but rocks and home-made bombs! In no way can they compete with Israel's tanks and missiles. Why, recently a Tank force [40 tanks I think] rolled into 10 Palestine cities and wiped them out block by block. Imagine if you will, a small town with building no higher than two stories, filled with people -civilians no less!- and having each building blown up one after another? What other choice do they have? What other way of fighting can they do? Other than bombings?

How much longer will we remain silent?

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Offline Calebone

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2002, 11:17:47 PM »
Yes, they could do something, It might be nice if they lived up to the name some have given them 'defenders of the world'. If you think about it, the only reason america is powerful because of it's economy.

Offline Don't Yell at mE!

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2002, 11:22:35 PM »
these men are NOTHING like our founding fathers.  

first of all, different ideals.  the palestinians and the taliban (NOT the afghan people) have (or had in the taliban's case) views that are nothing like ours.

and in human nature, it is almost basic instinct to fight for our ideals, to quarrel with what we aren't familiar with.  to the palestinians, the U.S. are the bad guys, the people who slaughter their families and destroy their futures.

I think that the U.S. tries to do it's best to help other nations, but, some nations don't like us for what we are, and so, Bush has nothing else to do BUT turn a blind eye to them.  World peace and international rights can't be done while conflicting ideals reign supreme, and I applaud the U.S. government's efforts in fighting for what they think is right.

no, they are not savages bent on evil, but, they are killing things out of hate, and hate-killing (or any kind of mass unrighteous killing) is not okay by US standards, and so, the US stands up and fights for what they think is right.

and, sad as it is, we won't be able to spare or save every civilian that is caught in a war or a crossfire of countries.  War is an ugly thing, and you can't really stop it.

and...what do you mean by remaining silent? the US have been the forefront in trying to stop these acts of destruction.  

Offline Calebone

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2002, 11:33:32 PM »
Well, so far they have said "stop that". If something has happened on this war and I am acting ignorant, please tell me. I haven't watched they news for 5 days.

Offline Cormer Lir

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Re:The Inalienable Rights
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2002, 11:42:02 PM »
Of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  

In the case of the Afghans, we've never gone to war with Afghanistan.  The Taliban, yes, for sheltering terrorist.  Al Qaeda, YES, for BEING terrorists.  Cloak it any way you like, but in this case we've not infringed upon the inalienable rights of anyone in the region.  The WTC bombing WAS carried out by religious fanatics over a matter of solely religious significance.

In the case of the Palestinians, matters are a bit more complicated.  Frankly, to all reliable reports, the Israelis have never in fact committed the sort of intentional mass slaughters that they are regularly accused of (often with no evidence), and what civilian casualties ARE incurred are done so accidentally during military operations.  Whether those operations themselves are in fact just is another matter entirely, but the simple truth is that the Israelis don't drive tanks into towns and start killing anything that moves.  

The various terrorist brigades cannot make the same claim.  

Talk all you like about the founding of the United States, but there is NO comparison.  During the Revolution, despite the fact that we we're facing what was arguably the most powerful army in the world, without any real trained forces of our own, we never indulged in terror attacks on civilian targets.  We didn't sail brigs loaded with gunpowder into British harbors for the purpose of slaughtering the populace.  And secondly, automatic weapons, katyusha rockets, and all sorts of other fun things are present in the Palestinian arsenal.  Not just rocks and bombs.

The various terrorist brigades cannot make the same claim.

Incidentally, automatic weapons, katyusha rockets, and all sorts of other fun things are present in the Palestinian arsenal.  Not just rocks and bombs.  Why did Israel occupy the Golan Heights?  They got tired of having civilians get shelled in the middle of the night.

Are the Israelis correct in their actions?  No.  But they've been pushed a little too much.  You can only poke a bear a set number of times before it gets irritated and eats you.  

Are the Palestinians correct in THEIR actions.  No.  Considerably less so than the Israelis, I might add.  Terrorism will alienate the only people that can help them at this point.  They want support from the West, they need to try something new.  

Non-violent resistance.  At the moment, at least in the US, Israelis are the "good guys".  And every terrorist bomb that explodes in a crowded street makes them look even better.  

As it is, the situation is almost ridiculous.  Palestinians complain about checkpoints.  Checkpoints exist to make life difficult for terrorists.  They complain about retaliatory strikes.  They claim that THEY'RE the ones making retaliatory strikes.  If so, they'd be far better served by going after legitimate targets, rather than buses and night clubs.  They complain that Israel has interfered with their self-governance.  Their officials have basically been proven to have ties to terrorists.  The whole thing is one collosal mess, and while neither side is "right", the Israelis at least have the virtue of restraint.


Finally, there's the matter of intervention.  

And we all know how well THAT works.  

To successfully intervene in any of these situations, we'd need to do one simple thing:  Conquer the countries in question.  Nothing less will suffice.  Smash them flat, and rebuild from the ground up.  And unfortunately, the world won't stand for that.  Hell, I won't stand for that.
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Offline Scars

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2002, 12:06:59 AM »
your government should not meddle in their affairs. but you will. just like you always do. this is not flaming this is facts. your country is based on genocide and yet you worship the people that commited the act. slavery and genocide, with out them you country would be nothing.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2002, 12:28:16 AM »
What would cause the Israels's to rethink? Stop signing the cheques. Stop sending them money. Send the message - no more aid until you abide by the UN rulings.

It is no more complicated that that.

Look at the UN voting record. When ever Israel comes into a vote, look at what country vetos the vote. It does not matter what the vote may be about at the time, it is vetoed.

Stop sending the money and then tell me the US is serious about talking to both sides about peace.
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Offline Don't Yell at mE!

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2002, 01:52:28 AM »
you're very jaded, aren't you, fighting scars?

yeah, you're right, we are a country that meddles in other people's businesses.  Yes, we are the ones that helped the persecuted Jews find a country they could call home.  Yes, we are the ones who go about, prancing around, saying, yes, we stand for truth, justice, and personal rights.

and, fighting scars, you're quite right.  maybe the U.S. should just stop helping any country out.  yes, let's leave those starving middle eastern and third world african countries alone.  let's let israel get ripped apart by the other countries.  Let's let Iraq build up their chemical weapons arsenal and continue to fund terrorist activities.

yes, fighting scars, you seem to know everything.  The US has never condoned the act of wiping out an entire ethnic group or race, but, what the heck? let's worship whoever does.  

Yes, the US is built on slavery and genocide.  We wouldn't be the country of freedom, land of oppurtunity that we are today if it wasn't for that.  Yes, the whole world be WAYYYYY better off if we were never made.

And, uh, I have a very limited experience with message boards, so, I'm not sure if I'm flaming or not...sorry if I am...

oh, and by the way, fighting scars, what country do YOU come from?    

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2002, 02:51:04 AM »
i come from new zealand. you are a american. when you look from the outside in you see a very different picture. im not saying that everything the USA does is bad, some of the things it has done are very good but the americans preach propaganda to other countries and over all meddle in other countries affairs. war in afganistan- your fault, war in vietnam-your fault, the gulf war-your fault. i could go on but whats worse is that you insist on getting other countries involved. Vets in new zealand have medical problems from the wonderful american invention called agent orange and you wont admit that it has messed them up. the only british troops killed in the gulf war were killed by one of your stay bombs. need i go on.......
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Offline Tuisich-Anastari

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2002, 10:50:22 AM »
the fact that we entered into a war to defend one side does not make the war our fault.  where do you get off with such ideas?  WE didn't start the gulf war, for example.  Saddam Hussein did that when he invaded Kuwait.  WE didn't start the war in Afghanistan.  Our presence was brought on as a response to an attack against us.  War has in fact been going on there for years, completely apart from anything involving the US.  And how did we cause Vietnam?  None of these examples are of the US creating war, but of the scope being expanded due to another nation's presence.

we insist on getting other countries involved???  what, did we twist new zealand's arm and force them to send soldiers to Vietnam???  

true, the military is extremely unwilling to admit when they've done something foolish, even when it's our own who are afflicted.

[sarcasm]perhaps you're right, we shouldn't meddle in other people's affairs.  instead we should go back to the isolationalism from before WWII.  in fact, why didn't we just stay that way.  then Hitler would have conquered Europe, and come to think of it, probably killed ALL the Jews in Europe.  that would've been a much better world.[/sarcasm]
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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2002, 11:28:50 AM »
Allow me to paint a picture?

Say you were born in Palestine. From the instant you were born, you existed in a war-zone. For 35 years it has been going on. You grow up ducking bullets and shells. Your friends and relatives die off one by one. You have have little food and money, let alone education. You grow up knowing loss and despair for every waking moment.

Get this in your heads, right now: PALESTINE HAS NO ARMY. None. Zippo. Ziltch. Not even a militia. All these acts of resistence are done by angry civilians. I assure you, they have little to no weapons. Check your newspapers. Everytime you see a picture of an Israel/Palestine fight, what do you see? I will tell you, you see Israel soldiers with automatic rifles and occasionally a tank against....what?.......Students throwing rocks and cocKtails. Why is this?

Why the suicide bombings? Well consider the story I've told above. Add to that your hate. Hate. A very dangerous and often blinding emotion. All your life you've known your enemy. Throughout life, you've learned to hate everything about them. It increases with each person you know killed by them. You would like nothing more than to shoot and kill them all. But what have you got? No pistol or rifle? What you DO have is some rocks and some cleaning solutions.

Simply put, other than chucking rocks at soldiers [which obviously isn't effective] bombing is the ONLY way for them to fight back. Yes, it is 'terrorism'. It is desperate, but it is effective. Only bombing would make an effect upon the Israelies, the only thing that can instill fear into them. If you were pitted up against them, wouldn't you do the same? Remember, these people have nothing to live for. They have nothing to lose, and religion teaches them, perhaps there is a better place after death?

Yes, what they are doing is 'terrorism'. But it also happens to be one of the noblest things a man can do. Defend his country, his ideals, and his family, through his own sacrifice. To them, it is 'Patriotism'. And I assure you, if we were placed in the same position, we'd likely be calling them patriots as well.

Thus, this also applies to the WTC bombings as well. Those fanatics [for likely they are] are likely martyrs. Like the Palestinians, they have no other way of fighting and giving America pause. Oh sure, some of them have rockets, nukes, and other assorted crap, but they CANNOT POSSIBLY compete with American military. Thus, like the Palestinians, they feel this is the ONLY way they can fight back against us. The only way to drive home the thought: Maybe not everything America does in outside countries is done for their benefit.

Ah, and about the Aphgans.....I seemed to have missed a part. Bush does not want to try Taliban soldiers in a Court sanctioned by the UN, but rather in an American Court. Why? Because he doesn't want to be fair to them. What other explanation is there? Why should the Taliban be excluded from this basic right that all others have? After all, what have they done against us? Hid a bunch of terrorists from us. Not enough reason to bomb them to hell and back, and certainly not enough reason to take away their rights.

I should note that Bush has stated that Rights have no place in a time of trouble. I disagree. I say that Rights were created in a time of peace, specifically to be used in troubled times. What use has rights when there are no troubles? That is why they're UnAlienable [supposedly].

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Offline Wraithboss

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Re:The Inalienable Rights
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2002, 11:50:36 AM »

Of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  

In the case of the Afghans, we've never gone to war with Afghanistan.  The Taliban, yes, for sheltering terrorist.  Al Qaeda, YES, for BEING terrorists.  Cloak it any way you like, but in this case we've not infringed upon the inalienable rights of anyone in the region.  The WTC bombing WAS carried out by religious fanatics over a matter of solely religious significance.

In the case of the Palestinians, matters are a bit more complicated.  Frankly, to all reliable reports, the Israelis have never in fact committed the sort of intentional mass slaughters that they are regularly accused of (often with no evidence), and what civilian casualties ARE incurred are done so accidentally during military operations.  Whether those operations themselves are in fact just is another matter entirely, but the simple truth is that the Israelis don't drive tanks into towns and start killing anything that moves.  

The various terrorist brigades cannot make the same claim.  

Talk all you like about the founding of the United States, but there is NO comparison.  During the Revolution, despite the fact that we we're facing what was arguably the most powerful army in the world, without any real trained forces of our own, we never indulged in terror attacks on civilian targets.  We didn't sail brigs loaded with gunpowder into British harbors for the purpose of slaughtering the populace.  And secondly, automatic weapons, katyusha rockets, and all sorts of other fun things are present in the Palestinian arsenal.  Not just rocks and bombs.

The various terrorist brigades cannot make the same claim.

Incidentally, automatic weapons, katyusha rockets, and all sorts of other fun things are present in the Palestinian arsenal.  Not just rocks and bombs.  Why did Israel occupy the Golan Heights?  They got tired of having civilians get shelled in the middle of the night.

Are the Israelis correct in their actions?  No.  But they've been pushed a little too much.  You can only poke a bear a set number of times before it gets irritated and eats you.  

Are the Palestinians correct in THEIR actions.  No.  Considerably less so than the Israelis, I might add.  Terrorism will alienate the only people that can help them at this point.  They want support from the West, they need to try something new.  

Non-violent resistance.  At the moment, at least in the US, Israelis are the "good guys".  And every terrorist bomb that explodes in a crowded street makes them look even better.  

As it is, the situation is almost ridiculous.  Palestinians complain about checkpoints.  Checkpoints exist to make life difficult for terrorists.  They complain about retaliatory strikes.  They claim that THEY'RE the ones making retaliatory strikes.  If so, they'd be far better served by going after legitimate targets, rather than buses and night clubs.  They complain that Israel has interfered with their self-governance.  Their officials have basically been proven to have ties to terrorists.  The whole thing is one collosal mess, and while neither side is "right", the Israelis at least have the virtue of restraint.


Finally, there's the matter of intervention.  

And we all know how well THAT works.  

To successfully intervene in any of these situations, we'd need to do one simple thing:  Conquer the countries in question.  Nothing less will suffice.  Smash them flat, and rebuild from the ground up.  And unfortunately, the world won't stand for that.  Hell, I won't stand for that.


BULLS-EYE.

You know, they've been killing each other on that little patch of dirt for about 3500 years, or so. Is there any reason to believe that it would be any different even if there was NO USA?

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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2002, 11:50:51 AM »
Forgive me for posting again so quickly, but I felt I had to reply to Anastari's post.

Quote
the fact that we entered into a war to defend one side does not make the war our fault.  where do you get off with such ideas?  WE didn't start the gulf war, for example.  Saddam Hussein did that when he invaded Kuwait.  WE didn't start the war in Afghanistan.  Our presence was brought on as a response to an attack against us.  War has in fact been going on there for years, completely apart from anything involving the US.  And how did we cause Vietnam?  None of these examples are of the US creating war, but of the scope being expanded due to another nation's presence.

we insist on getting other countries involved???  what, did we twist new zealand's arm and force them to send soldiers to Vietnam???  

true, the military is extremely unwilling to admit when they've done something foolish, even when it's our own who are afflicted.

[sarcasm]perhaps you're right, we shouldn't meddle in other people's affairs.  instead we should go back to the isolationalism from before WWII.  in fact, why didn't we just stay that way.  then Hitler would have conquered Europe, and come to think of it, probably killed ALL the Jews in Europe.  that would've been a much better world.[/sarcasm]

Ah, we did not start the Gulf War, but we did aid it. There was a time when Suddam was a "good guy", and fought for us against Iran. We gave him weapons, and trained his soldiers. In a way, we are responsible for his eventual invasion of Kuwait. Aphganistan? No, we did not pay them much attention before. However, as I mentioned before, all they [Taliban] are truely guilty of is hiding terrorists. For this, we've leveled their land. Ah! But surely the WTC isn't our fault as well? Huh.....do you really think that those terrorists came all the way here to hurt us just because they hated freedom? Pshh! Likely, they came from one of Middle-Eastern countries who've been bombed or infringed upon by us in one way or the another in the past. Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and [yes....even] Palestine come to mind. And these are just a fraction!

Vietnam? Oh yes, we've had little to do with that initially [for this we can blame other countries like France]. However, I still can't find a legimate reason why we were there in the first place. So....

As for Isolationism.....wh y is it that people like to run from one extreme to another? From being totally involved in other people's businesses to locking ourselves away completely? No. Somewhere in the middle would be preferable. If you'd like, try envisioning this as your every day lives. Say the nations were families, wars were arguments, and allies were friends. Now, if some other families were having an argument, would you step in and punch everyone on one side? Of course not [or atleast I hope not]! No matter your own opinion on the matter, you would try to create a compromise. Giving one side knives to counter fists is NOT compromising. Further, if another family was hiding a thief in their house, would you go and attack that family to bring him out? Listen less to what others tell you, and try to think logically.


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Offline Wraithboss

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2002, 12:02:56 PM »
Ummm...we DID give the Taliban an opportunity to turn over the Terrorists. They refused, knowing full well the consequences...

In all seriousness Sandman, this is an extremely complicated an Volitile situation. How would you solve this problem if you were the President, or U.N. Chairman? There doesn't seem to be a simple-n-easy answer. :'(

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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2002, 12:28:51 PM »
Aye, that is true. There is no simple answer. However, I think it should be obvious which answers are the wrong ones.

I do not claim to know the right answer [which is perhaps why I have interest in politics.] but I do claim to know that some of our answers will only exacerbate things.

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« Last Edit: April 13, 2002, 12:29:38 PM by The_Sandman »

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Offline Cormer Lir

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2002, 02:49:03 PM »
In regards to America being at fault when it comes to war...  not really.  In Vietnam, it was originally a French and later a UN problem that we got sucked into, in Iraq we were responding to an invasion and gave ample warnings as to our intentions.  Saddam Hussein was instructed to pull out, and he refused, thinking that the US didn't have the will to fight a war.  The Taliban were instructed to give up Al Qaeda and bin Laden, and hemmed, hawed, and outright lied until their time ran out.  And we never did send in any significant forces.  We bombed the Taliban forces in the field, but we didn't "level their land".  For the most part, the Afghanis did that to themselves.  And now we're helping them rebuild.

In regards to things like friendly fire and Agent Orange... well...  I don't mean to sound callous here, but in war, amphetamine parrot happens.  

And Sandman, can you not see one simple truth?  Israel is hard on Palestine because Palestine sends suicide bombers in to kill women and children.  If Palestine stopped sending bombers, Israel would stop sending tanks and troops.  You can say that Palestine is reacting, but there's a part of the picture you're missing.

Palestine lost a war.  They're not in a position to dictate terms.  And while this is probably going to be an unpopular statement, there are only two reasons why the rest of the world cares at all about the Palestinian plight.  First, the fact that there is an ongoing religious conflict in the region, and the Israelis AREN'T the side with the gigantic oil reserves.  Second, because the Israelis are Jews.

The funny thing is that here in the US, the Middle East provides only something like 15-20% of our total oil supply.  Unlike various countries in Europe, who rely much more heavily on Mideast oil production.  If OPEC and other concerns decided to shut off the flow of oil, we'd be hurt, make no mistake.  Europe would be hurt a lot MORE, of course.  Food for thought.

Suicide Bombers will never solve anything.  All they accomplish is to make the country endorsing them look like fanatics.  

The Sandman: Sorry, wrong button. See my reply.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2002, 04:48:32 PM by The_Sandman »
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2002, 03:14:09 PM »
The act is important, not the identity of the person who committed it. Jew? Muslim? What does it matter when it comes to innocents being killed for the mere fact they were in the way.

What is the difference between someone being killed by an explosion because they were on the right bus at the wrong time or a person being killed by a missile because they walked down the right road at the wrong time?

There should be one rule for all. Not a rule for me and another for you. What is irresponsible for one country is irresponsible for all. By sitting back and allowing one country to run over innocent people with steelcapped boots means we are giving our agreement to the act. When the situation comes up again, what right have we to suddenly decide that what we're seeing is wrong when we accepted the same act as right before?

In the current situation one side is not right as both sides are certainly wrong.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2002, 03:15:13 PM by Cimex Digitus »
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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2002, 03:36:24 PM »
Well, one huge problem is that the government in Palestine is a sham. There is no Order, period.
It will never be possible to bring about peace to those two groups until the Palestinians can get on the same page, themselves!
How many times has Yassar Arafat had some sort of "Summit" with (Insert Israeli Prime-minister here), only to have another round of car-bombs, suicide bombs, etc. DURING the negotiations?
Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but I mean, this crap has been going on for my entire life-time. ???

Jeez, if it'll solve the problem, give the Israelis the State of Mississippi ! It would solve the mid-east problem, and triple that state's collective I.Q. at the same time! 8)

Again, I have to agree with Cormir Lir about the Palestinians: If they beat the Isrealis with a stick, they have no right to b!tch if the Israelis up the ante, and respond with a two-by-four...

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2002, 04:22:49 PM »

If they beat the Isrealis with a stick, they have no right to b!tch if the Israelis up the ante, and respond with a two-by-four...


...and vice versa.

Just a point to remember, HAMAS, those who claim responsibility for the worst of the bombings this year were created by the Shin Bet as an alternative to the PLO. Divide and conquor and all that. Except it would appear the attack dog slipped the leash and now chooses its own targets. In the same manner as Bin Laden was trained and equipped by us to fight the Russians and would now appear to have his own agenda.

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Offline Addinarr

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Re:The Unalienable Rights
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2002, 04:49:19 PM »

In regards to America being at fault when it comes to war...  not really.  In Vietnam, it was originally a French and later a UN problem that we got sucked into, in Iraq we were responding to an invasion and gave ample warnings as to our intentions.  Saddam Hussein was instructed to pull out, and he refused, thinking that the US didn't have the will to fight a war.  The Taliban were instructed to give up Al Qaeda and bin Laden, and hemmed, hawed, and outright lied until their time ran out.  And we never did send in any significant forces.  We bombed the Taliban forces in the field, but we didn't "level their land".  For the most part, the Afghanis did that to themselves.  And now we're helping them rebuild.

Somebody isn't reading my posts.....I've already spoke about two of those points. As for 'significan forces', does it matter? Did they even have a single jet to defend themselves with? No? Then they are out-matched completely.....Why are we talking about this? This is obvious. The Taliban could not compete. Simple. Rebuilding is a gesture of reconcillation, but I see little of what it has to do with the subject.
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In regards to things like friendly fire and Agent Orange... well...  I don't mean to sound callous here, but in war, amphetamine parrot happens.  

And Sandman, can you not see one simple truth?  Israel is hard on Palestine because Palestine sends suicide bombers in to kill women and children.  If Palestine stopped sending bombers, Israel would stop sending tanks and troops.  You can say that Palestine is reacting, but there's a part of the picture you're missing.

...Duh. Yet another blatently obvious fact. Of course Israel is cracking down on them because of the bombings. No sane people would react otherwise. However, what you're suggesting is similar to saying "If the Colonists didn't stop be-atching about the tax, Britain would stop sending soldiers". Re-think your logic.

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Palestine lost a war.  They're not in a position to dictate terms.  And while this is probably going to be an unpopular statement, there are only two reasons why the rest of the world cares at all about the Palestinian plight.  First, the fact that there is an ongoing religious conflict in the region, and the Israelis AREN'T the side with the gigantic oil reserves.  Second, because the Israelis are Jews.

War? What war? There was never a war. There is a conflict, yes, but there was never a war. As for your other points....again, they don't seem relevent to this discussion, however true they may be. I should note that there is a large number of Jews in the US, and venture a guess that they somehow are influencing Government choices?
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The funny thing is that here in the US, the Middle East provides only something like 15-20% of our total oil supply.  Unlike various countries in Europe, who rely much more heavily on Mideast oil production.  If OPEC and other concerns decided to shut off the flow of oil, we'd be hurt, make no mistake.  Europe would be hurt a lot MORE, of course.  Food for thought.

Huh? Why are we talking about this? That could be. Still, I think US is hoarding our own oil reserves, so we are depending on Middle Eastern oil until they run out. I could be wrong on this.
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Suicide Bombers will never solve anything.  All they accomplish is to make the country endorsing them look like fanatics.  

Ah! On the contrary! It does 3 very important things for them. 1. It inspires their fellow countrymen, hardening their resolve. 2. It brings fear to the Israels. 3. It brings the conflicts to Global attention. Of course, it also makes the Israelies more aggressive, but considering the consequences of staying passive, it seems perfectly reasonable.

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When right, to be kept right.

 


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