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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 138488 times)

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Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #80 on: July 4, 2003, 07:00:11 PM »
Yeah I think that the 12" one works, ill add it to the army biulder file now.
And on that note I am working down the list and I have finished adding all the old troops and I am up to the Flight Belt Troupe in the new ones. So it should be finished in a few days
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #81 on: July 4, 2003, 11:40:21 PM »
Great Von!  I can't wait to see it.

Rasmus: Regarding the Looted Vehicles, you should make it so that the final one is "Filthy Xeno Construct!" or something of the sort.  Not all of the vehicles are human so Mon-Keigh doesn't apply.

Regarding Masque of the Last Laugh I don't believe you made it to not affect WL, which I believe you should.

Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #82 on: July 5, 2003, 12:42:32 AM »
i still think you should be able to pay extra points for eldar and darkeldar craft that work fine
(gifts, but like... +25% of their cost, or +30, something like that)
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #83 on: July 5, 2003, 09:35:19 AM »
That seems reasonable.  Maybe it should be +20% as +30 is too rigid (think vyper...) but +25% seems too much to me.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #84 on: July 5, 2003, 09:39:02 AM »
I have a few ideas about that. Let me do the math and I'll make another update within a few hours.

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Offline Poueblo

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #85 on: July 5, 2003, 02:18:24 PM »
wow, nice list! I've been watching this list progress over the past while, and its gotten a lot better! I'll see if I can get one of my friends to use proxies for the harliquins, to fight my eldar.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #86 on: July 5, 2003, 02:21:21 PM »
Great! Welcome back with your comments and results!

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Offline Poueblo

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #87 on: July 5, 2003, 02:31:20 PM »
wow, that was a quick response, I'm still readind over parts of the list, but I'll give you some feedback in a day or so.
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Offline Archon Gahraktael

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #88 on: July 5, 2003, 05:55:22 PM »
First of all: Mask of the Last Laugh is too expensive.  It needs to be 10 flat per squad or maybe 11.  This is returning to the Catalyst argument, which is 10 for 32, but requires a psychic test.

The thing is Rasmus, is 18" too much?  Many of these armies will be racing forward at full speed, never that far apart.  And if you use Veil, its a moot point--you are all arriving at the same close spot.  Maybe it should be something small like 9". (I know thats odd, off the top of my head.)  That way, getting the mask would be off balanced by the fact that you have to bunch up.

they can get away with giving an ability like that away to nids for a cheap flat cost.  The ablility may be the same, but it is giving an extra attack to a harlequin, not a gaunt.  the results will be much more effective, thus, they should be more expensive.
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #89 on: July 5, 2003, 07:31:43 PM »
Not necessarily, because you can have 3 times as many gaunts in a squad which WILL defeat Harlequins in CC.  In this game, unfortunately numbers beat quality all too often.

Offline Inquisitor Daedalus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #90 on: July 5, 2003, 10:34:25 PM »
Rasmus: Regarding the Looted Vehicles, you should make it so that the final one is "Filthy Xeno Construct!" or something of the sort.  Not all of the vehicles are human so Mon-Keigh doesn't apply.

A Mon-keigh is not just humans to Eldar. A Mon-keigh is a lesser life form, or basically anything that is not Eldar.

I like the 12" Masque thing. It would be much easier to calculate and stuff.
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Offline Rilmanqualë

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #91 on: July 6, 2003, 01:48:33 AM »
Looks good, I'll hafta try it out.  One thing though - whats the point in including the "running off to join the circus" rules?  Its actually quite funny, I laughed out loud when I read that part, but it doesn't really make much sense in terms of game play.  If you can take guardians and scorpians and banshees, and especially wyches, whats the point in playing Harlies at all?  Why not just play Biel-Tan and take a few Troups and a DJ or two along for the ride?  I guess I don't understand the need to include the other eldar forces.  I know all about how they recruit from the other three groups of Eldar, but they give up those ties when they join the Masque, except mebbe a bit of style (ie I have harlequins models stuck on DE Skyboards with guns slung underneath instead of using jetbike models).  Mebbe you could expound on why those options were included?

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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #92 on: July 6, 2003, 05:13:53 AM »
Quote
One thing though - whats the point in including the "running off to join the circus" rules?  Its actually quite funny, I laughed out loud when I read that part, but it doesn't really make much sense in terms of game play.  If you can take guardians and scorpians and banshees, and especially wyches, whats the point in playing Harlies at all?
I just figured that since Harlequins could be part of the forces of CWE/DE there was nothing ideologically "wrong" with doing it the other way around. Just as a single squad of Harlequins can brighten a Biel-Tan Swordwind, so can a squad of Wyches add flavour and uniqueness to a Harlequin Masque.
Adding CWE/DE allies does not make the Harlequins less unique, I think. And running a single, or even a double, squad of Scorpions with the Great Harlequin, Shadowseer, three squads of Harlequins, Mimes and DeathJesters makes it a unique Harlequin Masque, don't you think?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #93 on: July 6, 2003, 10:43:47 AM »
First off: C'Tan Man: They can also take DE and Eldar vehicles, so thats why that term doesn't fit.

Secondly: Rasmus
The problem is that I envision it being more along the lines of having a craftworld, for example, gift the harlequins  with a squad of aspects in return for helping purge a planet of orks.  Therefore, I'm not quite sure if the title is a good representation.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #94 on: July 6, 2003, 02:17:21 PM »
Just as little as the Harlequins join in battle with the CWE/DE for the honour of it (being gifts or such) neither can I see the opposite occuring. Whatever Eldar wish to fight side by side with the Harlequins, therefore, will do so without the consent of their respective leaders.
Mostly this is to minimize list-friction, as will occur when cheese-mongers will opt lists with CWE/DE wargear on characters to make the Harlequins something they are not.

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Offline Pyro

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #95 on: July 6, 2003, 08:10:03 PM »
I don't have much in play-testing to offer, as I don't actually play harlequins, but please take my advice, as I am interested in them and I have played 40k all of 3rd edition (so Im quite experienced in this new addition, and the armies of it)

Alright:
Dismount rules are awesome, why they never had em before boggles me. Flipbelt rules are new and have problems you will see with jetbikes.
Mime disruption is... odd... but because I have advice for your mimes as well, I shall leave disruption until then.

The weapon additions on the jetbike are nice, but your new flipbelt rules present a problem with a lack of saves for models with jetbikes in cc. I'll deal with it when we come to the jetbike squad.

The stormgolve is the replacement for riveblades I guess? I like the name riveblades better personally. :P

The main issue with your wargear I have is the flight belt. The flight belt is too much of a compromise between the phase field and the jetbike. Why take a phase field when you have more assured (and further) movement with the flight belt. I think that the flight belt should be dropped (again). It seems that the flightbelt was added just to add another FA choice to the harlies, which I will deal with later. The phase field is much more 'unique' than the flightbelt, so it should stay.

I think that familiar groups should be armed with S.pistols with bio ammo, not fusion.

You should not be able to 'move' the webway exit each turn, thats silly, you are already giving them something that can be arguably better than a waygate anyways.

In the last laugh, does the model attack back with just a normal attack, or does it use its special attacks if available? (does a power weapon model who dies strike with a power weapon attack?) If thats the case, you may want to make it say 10 points more, Im not sure...

The laughing god masque should keep deamons summoning to 12 inches, so its actually useful, but might need to cost more (its impossible to judge masque costs without testing)

Red death is like withdraw right? Sweet

Shifting shadows is IMO, the ones harlequins need the most, and the most thought out one, good job.

The IoY spell needs a range, me thinks, to stop possible abuses of it.

Master mime needs to cost more points, as he is better than a callidus assassin, who has similar rules. Im thinking maybe 85-95 points... at least. (master infiltrator is a godly power)

The warlock group seems... odd and out of place. Just another group of followers in the army. The powers are too simple, and the rest of the squad too much like other harlequins, dump them.

Eldar allies should be at 0-1(to prevent abuse of other armies choices, and keeping the army still mostly harlequins), and maybe not allowing aspect warriors. Aspect warriors have chosen a path, and probably wont just leave it to go join another band. Guardians, rangers and basic DE units make sense though.

Mimes... I am not fond with the mimes you have put up. Frankly, finding a harlequin that can pass the ritual is hard enough. I think they will give them friggen holosuits so the dont just die soon after they join. Mimes as you have them are probably one of the easiest units to kill, period, we can't have that... Since they are new to the masque, make them have lower stats, but the same wargear. Give them WS - 4 and A - 1, to represent their lack of training. Give them flip belts and holosuits though, harlequins are screwed without them. Make them cost maybe 15-18 points?

Jetbike squads do not get 4++ saves in cc with your rules. This is... odd. I advise you have a special rule thats is throughout the ENTIRE harlequin army (except maybe mimes if you are feeling cruel). If I did this rule, I would give the ENTIRE army a 5++ save in close combat (yeah, wyches get a 4++, but they are hyped on futuristic speed). Independent characters (HQ/Elite characters, and DJs) in the army however should recieve 4++ cc saves because of their extra experience/training whatever. How about that?

I propose that your FA venom should be more heavily armed than your transport version, as it is a full choice. How about...

Asp - 55 points
Armor: F: 10 S: 10 B: 10 Ballistic Skill: 3
Armed with a shrieker cannon and TL shuriken cats. Can upgrade shrieker cannon to a shuriken cannon at +5 points, or a bright lance at +15 points, or an EML at +20.
Can have a holofield for +20 points
Transport: The Asp can transport a single Independent character

Somehow the idea of a skimmer flying by and a harlequin jumping it for a quick ride seems sweet to me.

Um... yay DJs are heavy support... that makes so much more sense.

The idea of a looted vehicle seems odd to a 3rd editioner like me, who thinks of us Eldar as total elitists, but what if...
I think you should only be able to take other races skimmer type vehicles. The looted vehicles need to be able to keep up with the normal vehicles, after all. Plus, you dont want ever freaking harlie player from here to london using a land raider with a holofield, now do we?

*rests hands* Thats all, I think.
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Offline Rilmanqualë

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #96 on: July 6, 2003, 09:13:06 PM »
Good points Pyro, mebbe you SHOULD play Harlies!

I agree that the flight belts seems a bit odd, especially as it sounds almost just like Swooping Hawks (especially with the grenade packs).  If yer gonna allow aspect warriors to join, keep it to one type of squad to keep the confusion down.  And I agree that making the allies a 0-1 or 0-2 is a good idea.  Rasmus, I appreciate your replies to my question, and I do agree that fluffwise it sounds fine.  Very creative and well thought out.  However, I can just imagine what people would do with a list like this.  Basically yer allowing us to take any of the elitist squads we want from three army lists and field them all together!  Think of the abuse that would recieve.  And people complain about Demon Hunters being an uber-army...  You've got to limit it somehow.  Mebbe you did and I've just forgotten, in which case whoops sorry!

Pyro, in regards to what you sed about aspect warriors joining the Masque, it does sound odd, but its not unheard of.  In the CJ #44 revision of the rules it states sumthin about DJ's "who were once Exarchs of that [swooping hawks] shrine" carrying Hawk's talons.  So maybe they see joining the Masque as the dramatic fulfillment of the Path of the Warrior, joining the elitest warband dedicated to fighting their ultimate enemy.

Its still funny though, "running off to join the circus..."  hee hee

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #97 on: July 6, 2003, 11:09:28 PM »
Also, Fire Dragon Exarchs would take their Firepikes and become DJs.

Pyro--I have a couple things

Regarding Familiars with Bio-Ammo, that is just unfair.  two plus to wound and hit along with easily 4 templates is just obscene.  This, for only 65 points, with an addition psychic power, and the other benefits makes it just unfair.

Regarding the Venom: There is no reason to upgrade it.  In fact, now that I think about it, I think it should be removed as a choice for non-transport all together.  It seems more realistic that they are taken as transports.  To balance this, you could make it that Venoms taken to transport troupes can transport any troupe choice you have.

Re: 5++ save in CC
This is not good enough.  I've played GK with these rules you get slaughtered anyway 5++ will just make it more so.

Warlock squads are like Wyches, do you think that Wyches should be dumped from the DE army?  It is an identical principle.

Mimes are not supposed to be able to hold their own in CC!  They are meant to be infiltrators who go back and tie up enemy heavy weapons so you can advance in peace.  They are not meant to kill and survive!

The Laughing God Mask does not need to be changed, 6" is when people will summon daemons so they can do something.  No sane chaos player (who does not play Tzeentch, and that is the least powerful god) will try and summon Daemons 12" away!

Looted Vehicles may not be given Holofields, so that is a moot point.  Also, it is better to take 9 DJs than 1 Land Raider and 6.

Rasmus, I played another game against Armored Company.  I discovered that when vehicles blow up, Harlequins die!! I lost more of my army to 6s than anything else.  Are we allowed to take cover saves on this??

Offline Pyro

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #98 on: July 6, 2003, 11:39:17 PM »
Blargh! I wasn't thinking about the template destruction it might cause, yeah definitely scrap that, heh.

About the venom to asp upgrade. I thought since he had the venom there I might as well offer a suggestion. The vehicle I created was unique with the one model transport capacity, and I kind of liked it so I included it. If the choice was removed all together from the FA section, and put only as a transport, I wouldn't complain. I just didn't know why he had a venom as an FA choice, so I did a little altering.

The 5++ save in CC: Could you please explain how this happened. I know people that beat the crap out of everybody with no-save harlequins, so explanation on why a 5++ save would be so bad. I mean, I quite enjoy the 5++ on my terminators.

Warlock squads give a bad feel compared to the rest of the list to me. If I saw some fluff on warlock squads, I might like em more, but right now they are very out of place to me. They are only slightly more expensive than normal troops, and are elites. Elites is already a bulging category in this new list, and could use trimming, so people wouldn't pack the elites section like they do with vanilla Eldar (because they want to use as many of those various choices as possible). And while the UNITS of warlocks and wyches may seem similar. Because DE and harlequins are different lists, the usage of each type differentiates them. Warlocks are shown to be all different in the way they are described, but in stats, and tactics for them, they are really just slightly better harlequins. If the writer of this list REALLY likes em, they might be good as a HQ bodyguard unit, instead of elites.

I stand by my mimes comment. Mimes die as fast as grots, and last time I checked, eldar are a freaking dying race, and harlequins are even rarer.

The laughing god change was just me wondering, its nothing special or revolutionary, so whatever.

Quoting from the list that is linked...
"Options: The looted vehicle may be given any weapons options permitted from the parent army list, but not wargear. The vehicle may be fitted with a holo-field at +25 points. This distorts its shape and prevents the enemy from targeting its most vulnerable locations. Whenever your opponent rolls on the damage table for the vehicle, they must roll two dice and apply the lowest result."
yes, a LR can get a holofield.
 
 
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #99 on: July 7, 2003, 03:41:49 AM »
Quote
The weapon additions on the jetbike are nice, but your new flipbelt rules present a problem with a lack of saves for models with jetbikes in cc. I'll deal with it when we come to the jetbike squad.
The jetbikes still retain a 3+ save in cc. I fail to see the problem in this. Have I missed something?

Quote
The stormgolve is the replacement for riveblades I guess? I like the name riveblades better personally. :P
Stormglove is the older name. It therefore took back its place.

Quote
The main issue with your wargear I have is the flight belt. The flight belt is too much of a compromise between the phase field and the jetbike. Why take a phase field when you have more assured (and further) movement with the flight belt. I think that the flight belt should be dropped (again). It seems that the flightbelt was added just to add another FA choice to the harlies, which I will deal with later. The phase field is much more 'unique' than the flightbelt, so it should stay.
Here, again, the Flight belt is older, and if something should go, it would be the Phase field. The flightbelt gets the mobility restored in another part of the list which is missing.

Quote
You should not be able to 'move' the webway exit each turn, thats silly, you are already giving them something that can be arguably better than a waygate anyways.

In the last laugh, does the model attack back with just a normal attack, or does it use its special attacks if available? (does a power weapon model who dies strike with a power weapon attack?) If thats the case, you may want to make it say 10 points more, Im not sure...

The laughing god masque should keep deamons summoning to 12 inches, so its actually useful, but might need to cost more (its impossible to judge masque costs without testing)

The IoY spell needs a range, me thinks, to stop possible abuses of it.
I will look over all of this. Thank you for pointing this out. Maybe the wording is unclear. I will look into it.

Quote
The warlock group seems... odd and out of place. Just another group of followers in the army. The powers are too simple, and the rest of the squad too much like other harlequins, dump them.
It is the restoration of the Warlocks, which were in the old list, and as another HQ choice is not something the list needs.
If you find the powers too... pale, what would you suggest?

Quote
Eldar allies should be at 0-1
I have considered this as well

Quote
Mimes... I am not fond with the mimes you have put up.
It is not my idea. It is GWs idea. It was in their older list, released to the web in 1998 I think. I have seen its place filled well, and not seen any reason to change them.

Quote
Plus, you dont want ever freaking harlie player from here to london using a land raider with a holofield, now do we?
Why not? It would look sweet! Actually, the first looted vehicle illustrated by GW in the first RT-list was - you guessed it - a landraider!
I have a Leman Russ. It is very very colourful. It is in the Harlequin-section of EO, if you want to look at it.

Thank you for your feedback, and I will look at the stuff you mentioned, to see if anything can be altered, made better.
« Last Edit: July 7, 2003, 03:54:13 AM by Rasmus »

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