Topic: Battle Force box despairty

[General Canderous Fayler]

Since starting my new chaos space marines project, I've been looking at all the different battle force sets that GW offers for the armies.  Some of these are ridiculously great deals, some of them not so much.  Lets take a look shall we?

Note: if it is not possible to get a certain number of models in the battle force as opposed to the correlating squad box, then I will average out the price from the squad box (squad box price divided by number of models in the box multiplied by how many are in the battleforce)

Chaos Space Marines-  Contains 8 Khorne ‘zerkers*, 15 chaos space marines (1 10 man squad box and a 5 man squad box), a Chaos Rhino, and a 5 man possessed squad.
Cost of models if bought separately: $140
Savings: $50

Dark Eldar- Contains 20 warriors, one raider, 5 jet bikes and plastic trees!
   Cost of models if bought separately: $140
   Savings: $50
I don’t know how much the plastic trees can cost, if you can even get them now.

Eldar – Contains 1 Guardian squad with heavy weapon platform, 5 man dire avenger squad, one wave serpent, and a war walker
   Cost of models if bought separately: $115
   Savings: $25

Imperial Guard –
   Cadian Battle Force- Contains 20 guardsmen, 3 heavy weapon teams, a leman russ, and a set of plastic ruins, oohhh goody!
      Cost if bought separately: $110
      Savings: $20
   Catachan Battle Force- Contains 25 guardsmen, 3 heavy weapon teams, 2 sentinels and some trees!
      Cost if bought separately: $128.75
      Savings: $38.75

Necrons- Contains 28 warriors, 7 scarab bases, and 3 destroyers
   Cost if bought separately: $141.67
   Savings: $51.67

Orks- Contains 20 boyz, 3 warbikes, and a trukk
   Cost if bought separately: $109
   Savings: $19

Space Marines- contains 15 tactical marines, 5 scouts, 5 assault marines, and a metal boxe…erm, Rhino…
   Cost if bought separately: $135
   Savings: $45
I realize that I did not include some of the other space marine battle forces such as the space wolves and the dark angels box, but if you want to do this, feel free to add them!

Tau Empire- Contains a devilfish apc, a crisis suit, 12 fire warriors, 12 kroot, and 3 stealth suits.  Drones are included respectively.
   Cost if bought separately: $136.25
   Savings: $46.25

Tyranids – Contains 16 guants, 8 genestealers, 3 warriors, and a carnifex.
   Cost if bought separately: $145
   Savings: $55

Average Savings on a battle force set: $40.07

I was a little surprised to see that the tyranid battle force was the best deal.  Not surprisingly, both flavors of SMs are pretty good deals, along with the Necron and Tau sets.  The Dark Eldar one looks pretty good, but I don’t know how dated these are and whether they are worth the money or not.

Orks don’t seem to be getting any love from GW, having the lowest savings of all the battleforces.  The Imperial Guard Cadian box doesn’t seem to get as much as other boxes do as well.  Also, why the IG sets are the only new sets to have terrain included in them is beyond me.  I’d gladly trade the ruined buildings in the Cadian set for 5 more men.  At least the Catachan box is close to the average savings for a battle force.  Eldar also fall in place with the worst deals.

I would very much like to get help from people to figure out some ball park points values to whats in these battle forces to see if that is how GW decides what to put in them.  The Cadian battle force has a points value of around 400 points, depending on how you equip it, and the Catachan battle force would have around 350 pts.

Thoughts and opinions?

***If I made any errors, please post them and I will work as fast as possible to correct them.***

[Daedalus_Mk_V]

The Tau battleforce is pretty much 500 points (equipped reasonably it comes out to about 560). It's also a perfectly functional army, which is nice.
The Necron Battleforce can easily be used to make a 750 point army, and can be pushed up as far as 900 points if you have half-decent conversion skills.
The Tyranid battleforce depends heavily on biomorph choices, but can make at least 700 points worth of models without going too crazy. More if you convert one of the 'Stealers into a Brood Lord.
The Chaos Battleforce sadly is not really capable of making a legal army, but comes with about 650 points worth of models.

That's it for the armies that I have codices for. It also makes a few points very obvious: The Necrons and 'Nids have by far the best Battleforce boxes in the lineup, being the best savings, biggest points numbers and (most importantly of all!) fully functional armies. They also contain a really high quality selection of units that makes it entirely possible to do something like make a working (and in the 'Nid's case actually highly effective) 1.5k army just by buying two of them.
The older boxed sets suck big time. While the DE one is a great deal, it also has about the worst model selection out of any of them- no Dark Eldar player I've ever talked to uses 5 Rever Jetbikes at a reasonable points level. It also doesn't come close to making a legal or effective army. The Catachan one is a little bit better, but still won't make a real army and has the absolute least number of points of the lot. The Cadian one has a great selection of models, but it happens to be about $75 off a legal army.
The only real exception to the "newer is better" trend is the Orks, who have what happens to be a really crummy Battleforce almost on par with the Cadian set. Of course, anyone who starts Orks can just grab AOBR for the best "battleforce" on the market at about half price...

[General Canderous Fayler]

Yes, the DE battle force is a little absurd.  I forgot to add that, but it would have been pure conjecture on my end, since I've never played or had much experience with DE before.  As you mentioned, some of these boxes are off the charts if you have decent converting skills.  I did this with the Cadian IG box, hacking on more heavy weapons (didn't need a command squad) to the regular Cadians.  Simple and effective.

It seems a little ironic that the boxes with the most savings have the most points and either are or close to being playable right out of the box, though I don't think that is the point of a battle force.  It would be superb if it was, but it would make buying several battle forces a little redundant if they all had HQs in them, though the parts for conversions would be welcome.

 It amazes me that GW lets this go, which is why I thought it would be interesting to post this onto 40konline.  I would like to know how they decide what goes into a battle force and why some of them have such a huge disparity in prices and points in the box *looks at the new Ork battle force*.  Does any one remember what was in the old battle force?

*** The old Ork battle force was 16 boyz, 5 warbikes, a trukk, and a war buggy ***

[Fafnir]

Sure, the Ork and Eldar battleforces suck, but at least they have one. The Inquisition and Deamons get none.

[Slaaneshislave]

In addition to being the best deal, the nid box is the sole battleforce that produces a legal army to play. 
(and a pretty decent one at that)

[moc065]

In response to our thread on the Battle boxes... None are amphetamine parrote, as they can all save you some cash... If you want your army to go in that direction.

Here is a Link to a thread I did on how to use an Eldar Battle box to make a 500pts force. Add a Farseer to the Battle box ($123.00 Cdn)

Here is a Link to a thread I did on how to use a Necron Battle Box to make a 1000pts force. Add a Lord to the Battle Box aand be careful on Scarab placement ($123.00 Cdn)

Both legal and the same cost; but vastly different in points...

I would not purchase a Space Marine or Ork Battle Box unless I wanted those specific figures, as the Assault on Black Reach is an even better deal (buy two with a friend and you each get a 1000pt force, a rule book, dice, and templates each... with about $400.00 worth of figures for $75.00 each).

Oh and you missed some little trinkets like the

• Ravenwing Battle Box:

6 Bikes ($100.00)
1 Attack Bike ($50.00)
1 Landspeeder ($35.00)
Saves ~$80.00 Cdn...

Anyway, I think all the Battle Boxes can be a decent deal as they can save you cash if they are the direction you want you army to go in.... at the very least, you can usually trade out undesired parts anyway.

In response to the Nids being the only battle box to offer a totally Legal army, I beg to differ...

• Tau using the Crisis suit as a Shas'o or Shas'el HQ is totally legal as well with 2-3 troops choices in there to boot.
• Necrons using a single Warrior (added Greenstuff for a cape, or Orb, etc) as a Lord is also totally legal with 2 Troops choices and severl FA choices.
• Ravenwing builds the Attack Bike into a Captain on Bike, and they can now have 2 Troop choices in Bikers, and a FA slot as well to be totally legal as well.

And I know there are other good ones out there, so there not that bad overall. I do wish that you could simply make a list, give it to GW and have them cut you a deal based on overall sales though.. and I also wish that prices were based on points cost a little, as some armies are insanely expensive...

While were here though, maybe we should touch on the other box sets too, like the IG Tank Box (good deal in here), SM Uber Box, Apoc Boxes (can still be direct ordered); as well as any of the larger army box sets.

CaHG

[Powerslave]

I have to say that if I was asked which Battleforces were the best, then I would say - the Nids battleforce, and the Ravenwing one.

But let me tell you something interesting. Since I am European, I am used to buying my GW stuff here in France (although I come from Ukraine) and paying in Euros. So normally, for a battleforce I would save a certain amount (as it was posted above), but often some units in the sets could be considered force-fed to us. But, these boxes begin to shine when you take into account the economy and that the pound has become weaker than the Euro. Recently, I saved an extra 100 euros on my purchase of a whole SM Army. I bout two SM Battleforces for 46 pounds, which was converted as 49 Euros. Here in France, the same box costs 80 Euros. So on two battleforces, I saved 62 euros in addition to the savings that were pointed out in the posts earlier (!!!).

I think that the boxes are an amazing deal when you have the economy playing advantage for you - but often some of the units inside these sets are very poor or even useless.

With all this said I think that most useful and cost effective battleforces are: The Nids Battleforce, The Tau Battleforce, The Necron Battleforce, The Ravenwing Battleforce, The Space Marines Battleforce.

Orks are not so bad, not so good.... while the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard could all use a serious revamp. And of course, the Inquisition needs its own starting battleforce.

If you do not take the economy into account, then by all means the assault on black reach is one of the most cost effective products ever released, especially if you have a buddy who plays the opposite army in the set.

But I do agree - GW needs to try to balance out each box to have at least very similar points and usability levels.

Just some personal input, Vish out

[BrassScorpion]

Yes, there is disparity between the Battleforce boxes. Similar disparity exists between the Battalion boxes for Warhammer Fantasy. Just look at the savings in a Dwarf Battalion and compare it to an Ogre Kingdoms Battalion and you'll see what I mean. I've often wondered why some of these boxes have less than a $20 or $30 savings (US) on them while others have more than double that. One would think that they all would save at least $30-$35 to make them roughly equal deals or at least ensure that they are all attractive deals.

As for the Cadian Battleforce and the Ruined Building Sprue, that item was removed when the Battleforce was revised in 2008 so that it is now packaged in a GW tank box rather than the large square box it used to come in. The Ruined Building Sprue is no longer available. All Battleforces and Battalions are being repackaged to fit in tank boxes (Land Raider type box).

[Lucky_Jackal]

In addition to being the best deal, the nid box is the sole battleforce that produces a legal army to play. 
(and a pretty decent one at that)

Tau and Nid can both make legal armies.

Nids ues the Warrioirs as HQ's.
Tau makes one of the suits it's HQ.

[Jerseyboy381]

Yes, for a starter, the Tau and Bug boxes are the ebst place to start as they have an HQ in them.  Most of the other ones at least have useful units in them.  The one I look at as odd is the CSM box.  They have cultist troops from one demonm and 5 posessed...some of the least used models in the codex(though I fielded them last week as an experiement and they did terrific...rolling a 6 for their gift was a nice help though)  Honestly drop the Berzerkers and the Posessed for something like a Defiler or maybe Raptors...something that's used more often.  Most other box sets come with things that are usually useful somehwere in the army.  The other boxes have mostly things that find use somewhere in the average army list and provide a decent foundation at least.

[Lucky_Jackal]

Honestly drop the Berzerkers and the Posessed for something like a Defiler or maybe Raptors...something that's used more often.

Only problem with that is if you put in a Defiler, that's two vehicles (Including the rhino) and Raptors are Metal.

Maby if you droped the Berzerker, possessed, and 5 man CSM team. Then replaced them with Bikers, and a Heavy support choice. (I'm thinking Vindicator, Thow a Defiler would work too.)

 I'm thinking one of these two.

10 CSMs, Rino, 3 Bikers, and a Vindicator.($150 all seperate.)
Or
15 CSM, 3 Bikers, and a Predator(Or Vindicator). ($140 all seperate,)

Would keep it in line, and offer mostly god neutral stuff to work with. And personaly the 2nd would probly be best. Since a pred could be opted to be made into a normal rino. (The 2nd would also be two troop choices, 1 fast attack, and a Heavy support. Meaning you just need a HQ. Meaning you could make a legal army with it.)

[Daedalus_Mk_V]

Yes, for a starter, the Tau and Bug boxes are the ebst place to start as they have an HQ in them.  Most of the other ones at least have useful units in them.  The one I look at as odd is the CSM box.  They have cultist troops from one demonm and 5 posessed...some of the least used models in the codex(though I fielded them last week as an experiement and they did terrific...rolling a 6 for their gift was a nice help though)  Honestly drop the Berzerkers and the Posessed for something like a Defiler or maybe Raptors...something that's used more often.  Most other box sets come with things that are usually useful somehwere in the army.  The other boxes have mostly things that find use somewhere in the average army list and provide a decent foundation at least.

OTOH, if you like Khorne Berzerkers and Posessed (like me), the Chaos Battleforce is not so bad. Compare with the DE battleforce which is about 50% Reaver Jetbike, which any DE player will tell you is a subpar unit and which certainly means only a crazy person would buy more than one of the box. Besides, do you really think that GW would put a Defiler into a Battleforce box? That would be kind of like dropping the Destoyers in the Necron set for a Monolith...

[FifthWindDieGermanator]

OTOH, if you like Khorne Berzerkers and Posessed (like me), the Chaos Battleforce is not so bad. Compare with the DE battleforce which is about 50% Reaver Jetbike, which any DE player will tell you is a subpar unit and which certainly means only a crazy person would buy more than one of the box. Besides, do you really think that GW would put a Defiler into a Battleforce box? That would be kind of like dropping the Destoyers in the Necron set for a Monolith...

Hey, if they will put a Carnifex in the Nid box...

Though some Battleforces are worth more, at least you are still saving money, assuming you find a use for all of the units.

[blinky jungle(REM)]

well in the cadian box set you get a lemon russ

[Unleash Mayhem]

Actually, you get a lemAn russ, which has already been mentioned previously.

[Skankin_Catachan]

mmm... lemon russ. probably cheaper than a cheese falcon if you play your cards right

the cadian box set does allow for a whole platoon, which is nice.

[typhon]

 it's a little late to add to moc065's statement on the ravenwing box but you can upgrade the speeder to the master of the ravenwing speeder which adds about another 20 bucks so that puts it to
100.00

[Heretek]

Sure, the Ork and Eldar battleforces suck, but at least they have one. The Inquisition and Deamons get none.

That's because they don't have enough (or any, in the Inquisition's case) plastic kits. I believe the only criteria for a battleforce or battalion is that it includes three different plastic kits. Playability is not the goal, so much as giving players the means with which to expand (or start) an army and save a little money.

[Ailaros]

Right, so any battleforce is going to be good if you want to fill out your army more, due to the whole buying in bulk thing, but is that the point of a battlebox? Bulk rate discounts?

I always assumed that it was designed to provide the core of a good army, not the accesories. As such, it's not quite so important what the savings is, or the number of models, so much as your ability to kickstart a playable force.

Like the necron mentioned before. 2x troops, 1 HQ, 1 HS and 1 FA can easily be made from the box. As mentioned, you get a 900 point legal army that needs only one more purchase to be playable at the 1000 pts. level. Clearly a good value.

Then you look at the Cadian box set. What do you get? 1 HS choice and a 1 Troops (assuming you like heavy weapons). Not only do you not have a legal army, but you don't even have 400 points (unless you put a rediculous number of worthless upgrades on the Russ). As such, I need to buy TWO of them, and I STILL don't have a legal army, and I STILL don't have anywhere near 1,000 points.

As such, I'd easily classify the guard box as being less than 50% the quality of the necron battleforce. Yes, they both give out a bunch of models, and yes, they do give you a nice discount, but only one of them gives you a legal army and the ability to play a full-sized game basically out of the box. I really hope that they come out with a new guard battleforce, especially given that guard infantry are allegedly going to get 33% cheaper, which means I'd need to buy THREE of them to get the same value as one of most other box sets.

[BeastNurgling]

The Necrons seem to have gotten a lot of love in their boxed sets from GW...  Besides their battleforce, look at that Warrior Phalanx thingee that came out to "commemorate the release of 5th edition" .  Incredible deal.