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Author Topic: New marine 'dex overpowered?  (Read 10006 times)

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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #40 on: November 6, 2008, 12:31:57 PM »
Yea except for they just take null zone and now our rr 4++ isn't so good. Their 3++ is BS.

Except you take runes of warding and now his null zone isn't so good. Its all swings and roundabouts you know...

Once you get past the OMGWTF?waaaa!!!1! stage of looking at stormshields its worth realising that they really aren't that great. They do nothing to help against attacks which don't ignore a 2+ save... for the points cost terminators more vunerable to small arms fire than tactical marines. Plus in order to get them they give up any possiblity of shooting, or on other powerarmoured units pay about the same points as buying an extra space marine.

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Vanguard have a free Power Weapon, making them cost roughly 10 points more than a basic Veteran Assault Squad, despite having Combat Tactics,  Heroic Intervention, and the option to equip as many members as wanted with more weapons than are available to their counterpart.

Except that points cost isn't inclusive of jump packs, which means that Vanguard are one of the most overpriced units in the book.

And you seem to be simultiously complaining that the DA/BA codexes where bad because they didn't have enough options and that GW listened to that complaint and stopped making armies without enough options. Or is it that you'd like everyone to have a codex without enough options so that its 'fair'?
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Offline The Exile

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #41 on: November 6, 2008, 01:01:09 PM »
The book is not overpowered per se,  but it has some annoying aspects to it.  I don't like the points cost for alot of the wargear.  The storm shield 3++ is fine for Termies and anything else, as it doesn't effect the game too much.  What really ticks me off is the cheapness with which it can be given to a captain.  Now Character to Character combat will be horribly in the space marines favor.  My chaos lord with a demon weapon will come in and hit a captain and the captain will go "ting" "ting" "ting" and laugh then hit me back and kill me cause my 5++ save is pretty worthless.  WTF?  What happened to my 10,000 years of experience?  IC combat is supposed to be fun if not fluffy.  Now its seems a bit one-sided. 

 

Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #42 on: November 6, 2008, 04:04:31 PM »
Yea are pretty much all SM HQs now 2+/3++ (at least the named ones?) ? I dont have the dex but all that ive played against are...

Offline Dinendal

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #43 on: November 6, 2008, 04:32:56 PM »
Yea are pretty much all SM HQs now 2+/3++ (at least the named ones?) ? I dont have the dex but all that ive played against are...

I like it when they miss a save from a Bright lance though. Look at their face.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #44 on: November 7, 2008, 07:02:03 PM »
WTF?  What happened to my 10,000 years of experience?  IC combat is supposed to be fun if not fluffy.  Now its seems a bit one-sided. 
so...  it's ok when you're the one kicking the crap out of the enemy, but when the tables turn its not so fun?  imagine how marine players felt before this upgrade where they either were immune to instant death or had a 4++ save.  Now they get a 3++ (which is pretty close to being both combined) and so can survive against the beefier combat armies. 

I remember that marine characters were laughed at their combat effectiveness when vs chaos or nids... now they go toe to toe and people stop laughing and label it cheese...





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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #45 on: November 7, 2008, 07:24:22 PM »
I wouldn't call it cheese. I'm not even miffed that a Space Marine Commander can go toe to toe with a Hive Tyrant and crush it miserably, despite the fact that said Hive Tyrant should by all rights ruinise said commander, and will in all likelihood cost more points for the privilege of losing. It's the inevitable consequence of having a Codex that is nearing 5 years in age versus a brand new one.

But I can see the point that the new SM Codex basically re-writes how Space Marines work in comparison to other armies. Chaos Space Marines are the fighty ones. That's how it works. It's the reason they gave Lords WS 6 against the old SM Commanders having WS 5. But not any more. I wouldn't mind seeing GW keep some internal consistency with their codices is all I'm asking for.
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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #46 on: November 8, 2008, 09:59:20 AM »
But I can see the point that the new SM Codex basically re-writes how Space Marines work in comparison to other armies. Chaos Space Marines are the fighty ones. That's how it works. It's the reason they gave Lords WS 6 against the old SM Commanders having WS 5. But not any more. I wouldn't mind seeing GW keep some internal consistency with their codices is all I'm asking for.

Yes, I really liked how chaos lords better better at killing things while marine commanders where better at commanding. It wouldn't have been as bad had the it only been the chapter master with WS6 instead of them being idential except for one having a surface-to-orbit radio..
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #47 on: November 8, 2008, 10:02:26 AM »
Quote
Now they get a 3++ (which is pretty close to being both combined) and so can survive against the beefier combat armies. 

Don't most have eternal warrior on top of this? They get a better invul and that, that's what's so hard about them...

Offline Vilamus

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #48 on: November 8, 2008, 11:11:28 AM »
But they only have 3 wounds. Shoot them to the Warp and back, then mop up with closecombat.

Or, ignore them. The SM commanders can only kill so many when they get in close combat.

Offline mikesusername

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #49 on: November 8, 2008, 11:41:04 AM »
personaly i think what will be really telling about the marine codex is its combat squads option.  for instance other army builds are running around with say 11 kill points and 3 or 4 scoring units, marines, because of combat squads can drastically alter thier scorring/kill point situation depending on mission and i think this is going to be one of the most powerful parts of the codex as time goes on and people get used to the flashier 3++ and varios ignor cover items

futhermore the leaderhsip thing i think will aslo be similarly powerful.

oh also, mention on here of the old codex being underpowered.... im not so sure about that and i hardly think it should be given.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2008, 11:42:33 AM by mikesusername »

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #50 on: November 8, 2008, 11:57:39 AM »
combat squads isnt new... dark angels had it first so that is a moot point, people arent complaining that dark angels can combat squad
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Offline mikesusername

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #51 on: November 8, 2008, 12:02:39 PM »
yes but dark angels had combat squads before 5th edition, ie who's to say its not really powerful now, nobody complained about it then really because what did it matter, but i imagine now general complaint gets lumped in with marines, regardless i don't conceed that general complaint levels are a good measure of brokeness.  futhermore darkanges dont have the rest of the marine codex awsome backing them up.  but look, in not nessisarily saying that its broken, overpowered, yes, obviosly, every* new codex is overpowered, but without playing more games vs marines i cant really go and say they're broken yet, but i think its fair to say that being able to drastically alter your stategic make up, ie tailor your list to the scenario, before the game is a pretty devestating ability.



*there are obviosly a few exceptions.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2008, 12:03:47 PM by mikesusername »

Offline Boboose

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #52 on: November 8, 2008, 02:49:50 PM »
***cough*** tau...
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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #53 on: November 8, 2008, 05:39:17 PM »
Quote
Now they get a 3++ (which is pretty close to being both combined) and so can survive against the beefier combat armies. 

Don't most have eternal warrior on top of this? They get a better invul and that, that's what's so hard about them...

Err, no. None of the Space Marine HQ choices have Eternal Warrior bar two, highly expensive and very specialised options. They don't even have the option of gaining it any more, since the Adamantine Mantle has gone the way of the dodo.
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Offline Changeyname

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #54 on: November 8, 2008, 06:09:19 PM »
i was running lysander with a termie squad yesterday actually and i have to say, the cushion of being able to chuck those lascannon shots onto lysander, knowing that even if you fail his 3++ he'll only take one of his many wounds is nice

that said in future i think he'll be running around with the sternguard as bolter drill on those guys is a frightening prospect ;)
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Offline Straker

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #55 on: November 8, 2008, 10:45:27 PM »
Well I'm glad to hear it's only 2 with EW; didn't realize that :)

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #56 on: November 9, 2008, 02:07:49 AM »
   Indeed, they have only TWO of them, what a relief. Can't wait to challenge any of them SM IC with one of our overpowered Phoenix Lords - At least a challenge worthy of these! [rubbing hands together]

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #57 on: November 9, 2008, 01:05:22 PM »
to throw in my 2 cents,

I feel like the new marine dex OVERALL is not that bad, BUT there are points of abuse that I find disheartening.

Drop pods where perfectly fine at their DA point cost, and are now an ABSOLUTE steal at their current price.  The fact that they get a squad where they need to go more reliably then anything in the game, and that the new "drop pod assault" rules makes them even more worth their money now is simply absurd. 

There is absolutely no reason to take a rhino over a drop pod, expecially given the point that you can litterally double up on your first turn units in a dawn of war game by simply feilding them.

Now granted, I have NO problems with drop pods, or their rules.  Only their price and the fact that if you want to get a squad somewhere on the board, there is LITTERALLY no better transport option then the drop pod, and it just happens to be their cheapest option.  The balancing math behind that just seems flat out wrong to me.

And also, I have a personal gripe about the return of hero hammer.  I personally don't have an issue with the special characters or their abiliaties, nor do I think you should need your opponents permission to use them, but I do feel having NO restrictions on them means that you see them more often then you see normal characters, and I feel that what is included to give army's "flavor" is instead simply making army's bland.  Instead of building a configuration of a standard character (albeit there where some archetypes for those as well.) at least its a bit more variaty then seeing Elderad being droped in every eldar list, and many other special characters condoning game altering benifits.

Personally, I was a big fan of the PRE eldar dex way of doing it in 4th ed, given minimal point totals to certain characters and their engagements in order to "curve" their impact.  As I am seriously getting tired of seeing characters like Elderad  be able to relocate an entire army in low point engagements, while characters like shriek, kanto, or other chapter masters allow you to take (an hq choice and then some) for nearly the same cost as a generic hero.  I think it just de-insentisizes customization and variaty in favor of using these "archetypical" power houses.  And while the marine codex is not the only one that does this, I am disapointed to see the trend continue, and if anything, only be pushed into more of an extreame with the new dex.

I personally don't have an issue with any rule that is there in the current dex, but there are some gross imbalances in the points costs of some of the units that I feel is a bit unfair.  But this is just for units like the new discounts to assault squads, and the like.  Rule wise, I think its a great dex, i just think it needed ALOT more play testing for points balancing.

Offline Camo

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #58 on: November 9, 2008, 05:09:15 PM »
Since certain characters that were used lots in previous editions were lowered in power I can't see how the new one is overpowered. Chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine all less capable in combat,

There are more options, but that's all really.
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Offline Draza

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Re: New marine 'dex overpowered?
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2008, 08:40:26 AM »
Quote
Since certain characters that were used lots in previous editions were lowered in power I can't see how the new one is overpowered. Chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine all less capable in combat,
Mind you, many of those characters can simply be replaced by the more powerful special characters. Equivalent example. Farseers got nerfed heavily in the Eldar codex. They maintained their psychic dominance through Eldrad instead.

Quote
Indeed, they have only TWO of them, what a relief. Can't wait to challenge any of them SM IC with one of our overpowered Phoenix Lords - At least a challenge worthy of these! [rubbing hands together]
Two have eternal warrior and one other has toughness 6 (base), which is almost as bad

Quote
Now granted, I have NO problems with drop pods, or their rules.  Only their price and the fact that if you want to get a squad somewhere on the board, there is LITTERALLY no better transport option then the drop pod, and it just happens to be their cheapest option.  The balancing math behind that just seems flat out wrong to me.
The lack of mobile moving cover (they come in immobilized), instant half victory points to the enemy (tournaments) and the fact that the squad loses all mobility once they land are factors to consider. With a rhino rush you can go in all at once. With drop pods, only half of your force is going to come in to begin with.

Quote
I personally don't have an issue with any rule that is there in the current dex, but there are some gross imbalances in the points costs of some of the units that I feel is a bit unfair.  But this is just for units like the new discounts to assault squads, and the like.  Rule wise, I think its a great dex, i just think it needed ALOT more play testing for points balancing
Yeah, my Seraphim are looking a little over costed at the moment. Talking of rules screw ups, how the hell did the Legion of the Damned get the worlds most expensive heavy flamer. Slow and purposeful+expensive heavy flamer = fail

Quote
I wouldn't call it cheese. I'm not even miffed that a Space Marine Commander can go toe to toe with a Hive Tyrant and crush it miserably, despite the fact that said Hive Tyrant should by all rights ruinise said commander, and will in all likelihood cost more points for the privilege of losing. It's the inevitable consequence of having a Codex that is nearing 5 years in age versus a brand new one.
Depends on what the Commander has. I still think implant attack would completly cripple a Commander in combat, but gotta say, WS6 doesnt feel so special anymore

 


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