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Author Topic: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?  (Read 6435 times)

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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 03:15:37 PM »
That would seem to imply that Beams, Novas and Focused Witch fires of any kind would also require some vague roll to hit... despite saying that they automatically it.

Smite rolls to hit using firer's BS, because it has a weapon profile specifying a number of shots

Eldritch Storm scatters as a blast, reducing the scatter by the firer's BS, because it has a weapon profile specifying it as a blast weapon with a number of shots

Destructor hits as a template, because it has a weapon profile specifying it as a template weapon with a number of shots

Psychic Shriek targets a unit, rolls 3d6 and subtracts their leadership, and then applies the result. 

I don't see any way to apply any sort of roll to hit.  Arguing that there is would also force Beams, Novas and Focused Witchfires to roll to hit, despite specifying in their rules how they work.  It's a poorly worded section, for sure, but I'm quite certain that when they say that the psyker has to roll to hit... it's assuming the power has a weapon profile.  For those that don't, they are resolved as per their description.


Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2015, 04:55:02 PM »
Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Psychic Phase; Types of Psychic Powers; Witchfire
... a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it has the Blast special rule...

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Psychic Phase; Types of Psychic Powers; Beam
All units under the line ... are hit ...

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Psychic Phase; Types of Psychic Powers; Focused Witchfire
They follow all the normal rules for witchfire, but you can choose the specific model ...

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Psychic Phase; Types of Psychic Powers; Nova
... automatically targets and hits all enemy units ... within the psychic power's maximum range.

There really is no argument what so ever, and trying to pass the buck by saying my point would require other witchfire types like beams and novas to roll to hit is just wrong.  Those powers all specify exactly how they hit target units. 

When looking at the rules for Witchfire, does it say anywhere that you roll to hit only if the power has a weapons profile?  No, it says that you roll To Hit.  The first line of Witchfire says that they are shooting attacks, so you use the Roll To Hit rules found on page 32.  They don't specify that you only roll to hit when the attack has a weapons profile.

To sum this up, Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power.  Witchfire powers require that you roll to hit.  I am not looking at Beams or Novas because Psychic Shriek is neither of them.  Follow only the rules listed under Witchfire.  So if you can find me something in the first paragraph under Witchfire that would allow you to not roll to hit, then I will concede the point.  I have a feeling you won't be able to, though.
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2015, 12:22:32 AM »
Alright, how many shots does it get?  Do I roll 3d6, subtract their leadership and then roll that many to hit dice?  Do I just roll one?

You say that Beams and Novas don't count because they specify how the target is hit. I would say that Shriek does as well.

In fact, I'll do better.  It doesn't even say that it needs to hit or anything.  It just flat out says the target unit takes X amount of wounds, period.  The only thing incumbent upon the spell is targetting the unit (and being successfully cast).

Claiming that it needs to roll to hit (with its none shots), would be like saying that it needs to roll to wound... yes hits need to roll to wound, but this spell doesn't work that way.  It doesn't have any shots, so doesn't roll to hit, and it doesn't cause any hits, so doesn't roll to wound.  The target unit simply experiences wounds according to the power.  Wounds simply manifest.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2015, 01:03:37 AM »
Are you even bothering to read the page references I am giving you which flat out tell you how to resolve a witchfire attack?  Or are you just sticking to your guns because you don't like the answer?  Can you provide me a page reference that says Psychic Shriek hits automatically, or that the leadership test is your to hit roll?

Tell you what, I'll break the whole sequence down for you.

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Types of Psychic Powers; Witchfire
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks
Right there, the first line of the rule for Witchfire is saying the power follows the rules for shooting.

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Types of Psychic Powers; Witchfire
Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons
Emphasis mine.  There are many witchfire powers that have ranged profiles, but not all of them.  They all still follow the rules in this paragraph.

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 27; Types of Psychic Powers; Witchfire
Just like when shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit ... Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit unless ...
Right there, despite certain witchfire powers not having a ranged attack profile, such as Psychic Shriek or Laugh of Sorrows from Phantasmancy, they still are required to roll to hit.

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 198; Telepathy Discipline; Psychic Shriek
Psychic Shriek is a witchfire power with a range of ...
That line there tells you which rule to reference, and in this case you can find it on page 27.  As I demonstrated above, the power does not have a ranged profile, nor does it need one; and the power does require a roll to hit.

Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; Page 198; Telepathy Discipline; Psychic Shriek
Roll xD6 and subtract...
This is not telling you that this is how you hit.  This is the power's effect.  At no point in the description of Psychic Shriek does it ever say that the attack hits automatically.

So now that I have laid this all out for you, you no longer have an excuse to not read the page references because I have quoted the rule verbatim.  This is not a case of differing interpretation.  You are wrong, and no matter how much you wish to argue this, you will still be wrong.

For this discussion, I have gone over every rule that applies here and there is not a shred of evidence to support your claim.  If you wish to keep debating, then please provide a page reference to support your argument.
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2015, 03:01:32 AM »
Well, I've read the rulebook, I'm familiar with the passages you are quoting.

How do you resolve it, then? Expend warp charges, opponent gets a chance to deny, then one to hit roll, and, if successful, resolve the power?

How does this work for an infantry model firing at a FMC?  How does this work for a Hemlock firing at anyone?

Edit: I've reread the passages several times, and I'm starting to lean toward your interpretation, but Psychic Shriek is literally the ONLY Witchfire without a standard weapon profile (other than focused witchfires), so you can see why people might think it gets resolved differently.  Honestly, I've never played against anyone who though you did roll to hit.  That said, assuming we continue saying it should roll to hit, as it seems it should... that implies that psykers manifesting Shriek at swoopers are snap shooting... which severely deteriorates its usefulness.  This may, or may not be the right way to do it.

A further question then still stands for the Hemlock.  Flyers can choose whether or not to use Skyfire in their shooting phase.  What mode is the Hemlock (or a Grey Knight Stormraven, for that matter) in during their first psychic phase?  Do they get to manifest witchfires at all?  If we allow them to make a choice in the psychic phase, are they locked into that mode of fire for the following shooting phase, too?  If we don't let them choose during their initial psychic phase, and instead force them to wait until their shooting phase (as per RAW), are they then unable to change modes in the following psychic phase before the next shooting phase?

Further edit: Apparently Grey Knight Stormravens aren't Psychic Pilots... so this is literally only a question about the Hemlock.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 03:38:07 AM by Nythrulas »

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2015, 03:05:12 AM »
Well, I've read the rulebook, I'm familiar with the passages you are quoting.

How do you resolve it, then? Expend warp charges, opponent gets a chance to deny, then one to hit roll, and, if successful, resolve the power?
Yes, that is exactly it.

How does this work for an infantry model firing at a FMC?  How does this work for a Hemlock firing at anyone?

That is also answered in the first paragraph under Witchfires, 9th line down.
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2015, 03:48:06 PM »
Did you see the questions in my edit?

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2015, 04:42:47 PM »
No I didn't.  The edits weren't posted until for another half hour after I made my post.

Edit: I've reread the passages several times, and I'm starting to lean toward your interpretation, but Psychic Shriek is literally the ONLY Witchfire without a standard weapon profile (other than focused witchfires), so you can see why people might think it gets resolved differently.  Honestly, I've never played against anyone who though you did roll to hit.  That said, assuming we continue saying it should roll to hit, as it seems it should... that implies that psykers manifesting Shriek at swoopers are snap shooting... which severely deteriorates its usefulness.  This may, or may not be the right way to do it.
Psychic Shriek is the only Witchfire without a standard weapons profile in the core disciplines.  Phantasmancy (the Harlequin Discipline) has a witchfire that requires a pair of leadership tests to do damage.  It is odd that you don't include focused witchfires as they are identical in how they operate to witchfire except that they can select a specific model to allocate the damage to.

A further question then still stands for the Hemlock.  Flyers can choose whether or not to use Skyfire in their shooting phase.  What mode is the Hemlock (or a Grey Knight Stormraven, for that matter) in during their first psychic phase?  Do they get to manifest witchfires at all?  If we allow them to make a choice in the psychic phase, are they locked into that mode of fire for the following shooting phase, too?  If we don't let them choose during their initial psychic phase, and instead force them to wait until their shooting phase (as per RAW), are they then unable to change modes in the following psychic phase before the next shooting phase?

Further edit: Apparently Grey Knight Stormravens aren't Psychic Pilots... so this is literally only a question about the Hemlock.

That is actually answered on page 85 under special rules.  It is very clear when they are able to use Skyfire and how long that choice is in effect.  So no, a Hemlock would not be able to use Skyfire for its psychic powers.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Ibushi

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2015, 04:45:43 PM »
I'm glad I saw this thread just now!

Key takeaways:

1. Heavy D-scythes CAN shoot FMCs. (But not Flyers.)
2. Psychic Shriek ALWAYS rolls 1 dice to hit, and can ONLY Snap Fire against Flyers/FMCs

WOW I had been playing this literally backwards the whole time.

In conclusion, the Hemlock cannot Shriek Flyrants as effectively, but UTTERLY DESTROYS them with Heavy D. Win for the Pointy Ears!

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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2015, 05:28:41 PM »
Yeah, and I'm still not sold on Shriek having to roll to hit.  Not that red shirts are authoritative or whatever, but they are necessarily very knowledgable, and the local redshirts near me have universally stated that Shriek does not roll to hit, and actually thought I was crazy for suggesting that it might.  Also, I've never played against someone who thought that it did roll to hit, whether that was in their favor or not.  The only conversation I've had where it was suggested that it didn't, was here with GML.  Now, GML is very knowledgable himself, and has certainly risen to a point of prominence within the community, but that doesn't make him an authority per se.

After scouring the internet, I have found that many tournament FAQs do specify that Shriek rolls to hit (at the very least, this establishes that the confusion is reasonable, and no matter how you personally think it works, the other guy isn't an idiot for disagreeing with you).  However, these tournaments also do things like force ranged D weapons to have a -1 on the table... so it's hard to tell if making Shriek roll to hit is strictly their interpretation of RAW, or a balancing measure they have decided to take above and beyond RAW.

I guess the Shriek (and, I suppose Laugh of Sorrows, as well) debate is one that can't really be finalized without some official word from GW... which we can be well sure will never come.  I'd say, have your LGC make a decision and play it that way.

Personally, I don't think it's overpowered to say it hits automatically.  Much of the time, it gets no wounds, and the short range and low casting cost means it can be fairly easily denied, and retribution can be exacted in return.  No one has finished a game with me and said "Psychic Shriek just tabled my army, it's so broken."

But... play it how you will.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2015, 06:18:08 PM »
When those redshirts told you that it does not roll to hit, did you question them and provide them the page references to counter that point?

I mean, there is nothing in the rules that supports automatically hitting.  Absolutely nothing.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2015, 11:20:36 PM »
I imagine that the biggest issue is that, without a weapon profile, people are simply referring to the rules within the power, and applying what they see there.

Around my garage buddies, we discussed it and decided that it's a power with potential, but that forcing a roll to hit made it painfully useless. We're finding we need to tweak the Psychic rules to make it worth taking Psykers at all, but we seldom have more than 4 power levels on the table at one time.

I must agree, that since no specific permission is granted to avoid the need to roll to hit, that in a permissive ruleset you must abide by a general rule [roll to hit with Witchfire] unless that condition is specifically revoked by a more specific rule. In this case, it isn't. So RAW, roll to hit is required.

We don't play that way, but we're stepping away from RAW these days. Only took us 20 years. :)

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2015, 12:09:23 AM »
I imagine that the biggest issue is that, without a weapon profile, people are simply referring to the rules within the power, and applying what they see there.
And I think that is where the problem is.  People are reading the "witchfire" part of the line and taking it just as a description, ignoring the entire rule that tells them how the power is actually used.

If people are going to ignore the part of the witchfire rule that says they need to roll to hit, then they may as well ignore the part that says the power follows the other rules for shooting (line of sight, can't be locked in combat, etc).

You either play by all of the rules, or you ignore them all.

Now granted, people are allowed to play by their own house rules.  If they are doing that, however, they must be aware that they are playing the rule incorrectly, and providing advice based on that incorrect ruling online is not fair to the people who do not follow those house rules.  Kind of why we enforce a RAW-only policy here.  If it can't be proven in the book, it doesn't belong in these rules forums.
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2015, 03:04:17 AM »
Yeah, but we can do that with lots of things... like can two seer council Farseers both cast Fortune?

Since the Psychic power section of the rules was written by a drunk man in Sanskrit, that was then translated to English by another man who only speaks Swahili... I can see how pretty much anything goes, particularly in the psychic phase.

It's a genuine confusion.  No one's intentionally not reading anything.  We all have the same book, and have read it.  The wording leaves some things to interpretation.

GML is free to play it his way with his opponents, with no challenge from me.  Indeed, I see his reasoning, and think it's sound.  I just think there's enough wiggle room that something else may have been intended. As Arbor noticed, forcing it to roll to hit takes a marginal power and makes it useless.  It's not like people are dominating 7th with psychic powers in general... least of all Shriek.

I'm just glad I'm not the only one (outside of my fairly extensive gaming circle) who plays it as hitting, so thanks for the shout, Arbor.  In any case, I guess this is just one of those "agree to disagree" threads that ends up getting linked to the next time someone asks the question.

Basically, Hemlocks rock.

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Re: Hemlock Wraithfighter Skyfire?
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2015, 10:51:17 AM »
Yeah, but we can do that with lots of things... like can two seer council Farseers both cast Fortune?
That is a poor example because they do not actually define what a psyker unit is.  Also when you have two individual psykers join a unit, they somehow lose the ability to both cast a power.  That is a rule that makes no sense because it is taking something away from characters in a way that doesn't make sense. 

It has nothing to do with this debate.

Since the Psychic power section of the rules was written by a drunk man in Sanskrit, that was then translated to English by another man who only speaks Swahili... I can see how pretty much anything goes, particularly in the psychic phase.

It's a genuine confusion.  No one's intentionally not reading anything.  We all have the same book, and have read it.  The wording leaves some things to interpretation.

GML is free to play it his way with his opponents, with no challenge from me.  Indeed, I see his reasoning, and think it's sound.  I just think there's enough wiggle room that something else may have been intended.
Or it was written by an Englishman in England and translated into other languages from English.  You keep saying there is room for interpretation and that there is wiggle room, but where is it in the rules?  At no point in this entire discussion have you been able to provide any proof of vagueness, just anecdotal evidence on how it is confusing and that your "extensive" gaming group doesn't believe it needs to roll to hit.

Is there anything in the rulebook that actually supports your side of the debate?  How is there any room for interpretation when the rule says, verbatim, roll to hit?

As Arbor noticed, forcing it to roll to hit takes a marginal power and makes it useless.  It's not like people are dominating 7th with psychic powers in general... least of all Shriek.

I'm just glad I'm not the only one (outside of my fairly extensive gaming circle) who plays it as hitting, so thanks for the shout, Arbor.  In any case, I guess this is just one of those "agree to disagree" threads that ends up getting linked to the next time someone asks the question.
Our experiences with Shriek must vary greatly, because I have never found the power to be marginal, and making it roll to hit has actually balanced out the power.  Remember that the average roll on 3D6 is 10.5, and that the average leadership in the game is 8.  With the range it has, the power has a standard threat range of 24", 30" if the psyker is mounted on a bike.  So a 24" attack that is doing an average of 2 wounds with no armour no cover, and you think it is fair that it hits automatically?

I can toss in anecdotal evidence as well by stating I play this game against some very competitive people, many of which who are considered to be some of the top gamers in North America, and none of them think it hits automatically.  These are the guys that play at the tournaments that draw several hundred gamers and never have they encountered people claiming it hits automatically.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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