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Offline Pulse

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2006, 02:56:05 PM »
But anyways, each to his own I say. Don't tell me what religion to have or not have, and I'll be just fine.

True, but its nothing wrong with pointing to texts in a religious mans own holy book and ask for an explanation

I never said there was, and I agree whole-heartedly.

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2006, 03:14:16 PM »
oh, ok then :)
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Pilotseer

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2006, 03:00:09 PM »
I'm going to answer the most important one first. The rest aren't in order of importance, just the convuluted way my mind got round to them  ;D
But anyways, each to his own I say. Don't tell me what religion to have or not have, and I'll be just fine.
Am I trying to evangelise you guys?
YES
Why am I trying to evangelise you guys?
Because God has changed my life, and I honestly believe that if every one of You gave Him the chance, your life would be more meaningful and fulfilled (although certainly no easier).
That said, in real life I try not to be a stuck record (and the fact that I still have my non-Christian friends hopefully means that I'm not too obnoxious), but if you come to a thread about belief I'll do my best to convince you that God is there, and that He wants to get to know you better.

Basically, the problem is that without God, there can be no morality whatsoever, so if you ask why there is evil, you implicitly assume the existence of God, and therefore can't use the question to try to disprove His existence.

Another problem is that that statement is just your belief, not fact, so the question is valid.
I have not seen any successful attempt to define an objective morality without reference to God. The problem is that in a naturalistic universe, the concepts of good and evil are just human inventions. This means that no event is actually good or evil, it is just that we as humans have decided to think of some as good or evil. The argument from evil is
1. If God is all-powerful, He can stop any evil
2. If God is all-good, then He will want to stop any evil
3. Evil exists, therefore one or both of the previous statements is untrue
The problem is that the Naturalist cannot make statement 3, because he doesn't believe that evil exists. It is not possible to close the argument without assuming the existence of an objective moral law. The argument then goes like this:
Atheist: Look, if God is all-good and all-powerful, then why is there so much evil in the world?
Christian: So, you admit that there is evil in the world?
A: There is no such thing as evil, it's just a term that humans made up to describe stuff they don't like.
C: So if there is no evil, then why do you say that God is not all-good and all-powerful?

The Bible was not written by angels, but it was written by people who knew God, such as Matthew and John, who lived in close contact with Jesus for about three years.

Maybe they were inspired by god, but the problem here is that their writings doesn't always match up. If you read matthew 28:1-7 and John 20:1-18, you will see that the two stories of the same event (Mary Magdalena finding Jesus empty tomb) doesn't match.
The two accounts are not verbatim equivalents, but neither do they contradict one another. They both mention some events in common, and each has a few details that the other leaves out. This is in fact exactly the pattern that is found when two eye-witnesses relate an event (in court, for example). If the stories were highly polished, it would be evidence that there had been collaboration, which would cast doubt on the facticity of what is related. I have not yet come across any outright contradictions or factual errors in the Bible (and I have read the thing a few times). But if you want to go into detail on every proposed problem, then we should start another thread.
So why did God inspire four different people to write accounts of Jesus life? He doesn't say, but quite possibly because it's the most important event in history, and so the weight of evidence and the four different points of view are to help us gain a fuller and more reliable understanding of the events.

Like with god, he either exists or he doesn't. Yes, there is also the option of more than one god, but not when you talk about the christian god.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. In the 10 commandments it says that you shouldn't pray to any other god, which implies the existence of other gods. While we can say that this means not praying to imaginary gods, we have - at least to my knowledge - no written proof of this interpretation. And even if we have them, the 10 commandments come directly from god so as long as it doesn't say "well there's a mistake - check the 10 commandments errata and FAQ!" one could argue that it doesn't need to be true only because some christian man wrote into the book - who is he to contradict almighty god after all?
God describes himself in several places in the Old Testament as "the True God", and Jesus clarifies that as "the only True God" in John 17:3. Evidence that the Bible can use the word "god" to speak of idols or even as a plain figure of speech is found in phrases such as "yet they are not gods at all" (Jeremiah 2:11) and "their god is their stomach" (Philippians 3:19).

Its easy to reconcile timelessness and temporality, God simply cannot use knowledge that doesnt exist at any particular time. Knowledge of future events does not exist, it is not knowable, so when God interacts with the timeline at Tn he doesnt (at that time) know what will happen in the timeline at Tn+2 until he has finished interacting.  
He can still make prophecy come true by guiding things personally or even by making good predictions based on his knowledge of the present (though it may indeed be innaccurate thanks to quantum indeterminacy).
I have a problem with the idea that knowledge is bound to time. God is not in time; He created space-time. God is able to act in the absence of time (which we cannot) and I think it is perfectly reasonable to extrapolate that He can know in the absence of time. Psalm 139:16 says, "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." Assuming that we take the Bible at it's word, this either means that God knows the future or chooses to ordain it to the finest detail so that He is able to record it in advance. From our point of view, they both amount to the same thing: God knows what will happen before it does.

Quote
Quote
God could not be swayed by prayer, no religion will say you'll get a rocketship if you want one. All that prayer can do is allow the person to open up to God's will and guidance.
Actually, the Bible portrays God as being open to prayer, and even changing His course of action based on the prayers of humans. What it does not say is that You'll get anything you ask for just because you want it.
What stuff has given because of prayer? I thought it was just guidance?

Cheers!
When Jesus was asked about prayer, He gave the formula that we now call the Lord's Prayer. The prayer is essentially a series of requests; for God's will to be done in the earth, for physical needs to be met, for forgiveness, for freedom from temptation and for deliverance from evil events. The book of Acts contains the most spectacular answers to prayer in the Bible, including visions, healings and people being miraculously sprung from prison.

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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2006, 03:47:09 PM »
Am I trying to evangelise you guys?
YES

Finally someone is dropping the political correctness, thank you!

The problem is that the Naturalist cannot make statement 3, because he doesn't believe that evil exists. It is not possible to close the argument without assuming the existence of an objective moral law. The argument then goes like this:
Atheist: Look, if God is all-good and all-powerful, then why is there so much evil in the world?
Christian: So, you admit that there is evil in the world?
A: There is no such thing as evil, it's just a term that humans made up to describe stuff they don't like.
C: So if there is no evil, then why do you say that God is not all-good and all-powerful?

You got it a little wrong there. Christians claims that god is all-powerful, all-knowing and that evil exists. Naturalists doesn't claim any of the three. What they DO claim is that the three statements that the christians make can't coexist. Christians believe in evil, so the naturalist had his full rights to claim this inconsistency.

But if you want to go into detail on every proposed problem, then we should start another thread.

Ok, here
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=112190.0
« Last Edit: April 15, 2006, 04:06:14 PM by mrspungebob »
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline The Hive Custodian (Retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2006, 04:53:17 PM »
I have not seen any successful attempt to define an objective morality without reference to God.

Successful by whose standards? Yours?
Calculus is an art, but algebra is attrition.

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2006, 07:05:31 PM »
I see one major problem with this logic.

God is omnipotent, therefore he CAN do anything. But WILL he?

You must also remember God's nature. God is love, and by making humans, he wants us to love him. Now, if we were forced to love someone, that's not love at all. You must choose to love. If God didn't give us free will, we'd be little more than organic robots, which is not what God intends. Therefore God gives us free will, which is not inconsistent with his omnipotence. However, we chose evil.
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Offline The Hive Custodian (Retired)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 07:29:43 PM »
If free will doesn't automatically lead to evil, then God would have created us with free will, but we would not be evil. This does not appear to be the case.

If free will automatically leads to evil, then does God have no free will?

If there's no evil in heaven, is there no free will either?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2006, 07:39:31 PM by The Hive Custodian (Mostly Lurking...) »
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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2006, 02:21:35 AM »
If free will doesn't automatically lead to evil, then God would have created us with free will, but we would not be evil. This does not appear to be the case.

If free will automatically leads to evil, then does God have no free will?

If there's no evil in heaven, is there no free will either?

That's not the case here. Free will doesn't automatically lead to evil, but through free will, Adam chose evil over good, therefore corrupting the entire human race. Therefore, we have an inclination to evil.
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Offline Pilotseer

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2006, 08:33:03 AM »
And so we're back to the argument about evil  ::).
If you want my fuller opinions on this, check out this thread.
The short answer is: the Christian doesn't have a problem (philosophically; emotionally is another matter) because he doesn't claim that all-loving means that God will not allow any evil. The atheist cannot bring up the objection, because in doing so he must recognise the existance of evil.

I have not seen any successful attempt to define an objective morality without reference to God.

Successful by whose standards? Yours?
Well yes, but I try to keep my standard informed by intelligent thought. The problem is still that if morality is defined by humans, it is purely subjective. If you want a universal morality (which is necessary for an objective evil) then you need someone who has authority to declare what is right for all humans. And who could have the authority to tell humans what to do...?
If you know of a successful attempt to establish an objective godless reality, I'd be interested to hear it.

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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2006, 09:03:41 AM »
The atheist cannot bring up the objection, because in doing so he must recognise the existance of evil.

Of course the atheist doesn't have to recognise evil! If i say all Borgs are stupid, and later say that all Borgs are smart, then you don't even have to know what a Borg is to recognise my contradiction!

If you want a universal morality (which is necessary for an objective evil)

The point again is the its christians who believes in an objective evil. Most atheist ot naturalists doesn't believe in evil in such a way.

The problem is still that if morality is defined by humans, it is purely subjective.)

And the problem with that is?
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Pilotseer

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2006, 09:55:42 AM »
The atheist cannot bring up the objection, because in doing so he must recognise the existance of evil.

Of course the atheist doesn't have to recognise evil! If i say all Borgs are stupid, and later say that all Borgs are smart, then you don't even have to know what a Borg is to recognise my contradiction!
Er, I'll have to think about that one [just sat here for 20 mins, trying to work out what to write. I'm not convinced that you're right, but I don't know why (if) you're wrong yet]

The problem is still that if morality is defined by humans, it is purely subjective.)

And the problem with that is?
The problem in the context of this argument is that if it's all subjective, then none of it actually exists. You can say "there's so much evil in the world" and I can say "no there's not" and then we are at an impasse, because there is no reason to prefer my invented morality over yours.

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Il porcupino nil sodomy est

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2006, 10:04:49 AM »
The problem in the context of this argument is that if it's all subjective, then none of it actually exists. You can say "there's so much evil in the world" and I can say "no there's not" and then we are at an impasse, because there is no reason to prefer my invented morality over yours.

Atheists wont say that there is much EVIL in the world, we say that alot of bad things happen. From my atheistic point of view there is nothing wrong with bad things happening, i would be surprised if it didn't. But christians claim that there is much evil in the world, like satan.

Er, I'll have to think about that one [just sat here for 20 mins, trying to work out what to write. I'm not convinced that you're right, but I don't know why (if) you're wrong yet]

I'm looking forward to your answer
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline flibbertigibbet

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2006, 01:07:39 PM »
Found a couple of passages.

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God, but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. (3Jo 1:11 )

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. (variations in Mar 19:17, 10:18, Luk 18:19)

Cheers from the atheist preacher. Damn you guys are sloppy. :D

wow, I actually first heard all this from a Calvinist.

Once again, atheist.

My personal beliefs spring from the knowledge that religions have come and gone, and frankly not all of the could have been right.

Now, on to my major point.

God does, for all intents and purposes, exist. Hows that? It's simple.

Even though there is no divine entity out there tweaking things to make the world better or worse, the idea of a God has been used for so much, has healed and killed and strengthened and weakend so many peole and institutions, that history has acted as though god were there. Basically the entire argument becomes moot.

I can go on to say that by the very fact that it is possible for something to have had deific effects upon the world without actually being a deity is a great blow to all of the religious folks out there. Basically it boils down like this:

I reject any concept of God turning folks into salt. Sorry, no matter how much people think it happened, it didn't.
If any similarly ridiuculous claim is rejected and you show only the actual effects that God has had(by actual I mean anything that has been shown throughout history, including: kings claiming divine backing, leaders having visions, ordinary people changing their lives 'cuz they found jesus, and anything like either of those in any way) then what you are left with could very easily have been brought about just by the belief and not by divine intervention. Thus, God is belief itself, not a deity.

wow, that's got to be the first boiled down version of something that was longer than the original.


keep in mind that I'm not out to change any minds here, just to give a shout out and something to hmmm... over.
Clippity Clop Clippety Clop Clippety Clop BANG BANG BANG ClippityClop ClippetyClop ClippetyClop ClippityClop...

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Offline Pilotseer

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2006, 02:00:29 PM »
[Trying to be quick - going out for dinner in 15 mins...  :-\]
Er, I'll have to think about that one [just sat here for 20 mins, trying to work out what to write. I'm not convinced that you're right, but I don't know why (if) you're wrong yet]
Right, here goes...
The classic argument from evil cannot disprove the existence of God, because it needs to assume that which it attempts to disprove (vis. the moral law-giver). The fact that the alleged contradiction cannot be meaningfully stated shows that it is spurious. A parallel Borg argument is.
1. If the Borg exist, they must all be stupid
2. If the Borg exist, they must all be smart
3. I have met a stupid Borg, therefore the Borg do not exist
This argument is evidently flawed, because I have seen the Borg which I am denying. The argument from evil (just like the argument from Borg) can cast doubt on the character of God. I think that escaped my notice somewhere. Anyway, that's a further argument, and takes us into the free-will thing again.

Quick points about the Bible: John says that he who does good is of God. Jesus says that he who is good is God. Note Jesus does not say "I am not good", but "only God is good". In the context of the other things that He does at various points (eg. forgiving sins, accepting worship) the force of this rhetorical statement is not "hey, don't call me good", but "you just called me good, have you thought about who that means I am?".

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2006, 06:19:57 PM »
The point again is the its christians who believes in an objective evil. Most atheist ot naturalists doesn't believe in evil in such a way.

If it doesn't exist, why even bring it up? Recognizing the existence of evil acknowledges the existence of God.
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Offline Seer Fox

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2006, 06:57:19 PM »
What sort of perverse logic is that?

Evil need no source to spring up from, other than in the hearts of men. This in itself does not mean that God exists.

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How bothersome.

Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2006, 04:46:32 AM »
[Trying to be quick - going out for dinner in 15 mins...  :-\]
Er, I'll have to think about that one [just sat here for 20 mins, trying to work out what to write. I'm not convinced that you're right, but I don't know why (if) you're wrong yet]
Right, here goes...
The classic argument from evil cannot disprove the existence of God, because it needs to assume that which it attempts to disprove (vis. the moral law-giver).

The argument about evil isn't supposed to disprove god! Its supposed to prove than one out of the three "God true good and love", "God is all-powerful" and "Evil as chrisitans define it exist", has to be wrong, but makes no assumption as to which one.

And there is nothing wrong in assuming something you think is wrong in order to disprove it. This is actually how most of the physics theories are worked out. Someone put up a theory, then you assume it is right and try to find scenarios were its gives the wrong answer. Then you go and improve the theory or throw it away.

But i'm not sure i quite understood the rest of your argument pilotseer, sorry. Could put it in different words? For me, it looks like you just took my example, changed it a little, and came to the same conclusion as me, but i don't think that was your intention.

If it doesn't exist, why even bring it up? Recognizing the existence of evil acknowledges the existence of God.

If you read my post then you would notice that i specificly said that (assume you remembered that i'm atheist of course) that i DO NOT recognise evil. I recognise that bad thing happen, but i don't think its because of the divine evil that christians think.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

Offline Pilotseer

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2006, 05:46:02 AM »
And there is nothing wrong in assuming something you think is wrong in order to disprove it. This is actually how most of the physics theories are worked out. Someone put up a theory, then you assume it is right and try to find scenarios were its gives the wrong answer. Then you go and improve the theory or throw it away.
That's a fair point. I am hereby giving up on the "contradictory question" thing, until such time as I can answer your objections.

Meanwhile back at the Problem of Evil...
1. God is all-powerful, therefore He could create a world without evil.
2. God is all-good, therefore He will prefer to create a world without evil.
3. Evil exists, therefore 1 or 2 must be false.
The Christian actually agrees with this argument. Statement 2 is not a Christian belief. Rather, God prefers a world with free will and evil over a world without free will and without evil.

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Offline mrspungebob

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2006, 06:03:20 AM »
Ok, the free will = some evil, is an, don't like it but, fair point. But i really don't see why you couldn't have free will AND no evil. Of course, it depends on how you define evil, but say if i make a white lie to save someones feeling (not neccesarily from something i did wrong, could have been someone else) from getting hurt, and it totally backfires and the person is hurt even more. I would consider that more of a screw up than evil, and is bound to happen. I guess the christian definition of evil is more like mass-murderers and people who do bad things for no apparent good reason (as in not just a screw up). But those people are going to burn in hell anyway (depends of course on whether or not hell exists, but lets assume for a few seconds it does), so they wont be very happy to have been alive, as its just pain and agony for eterinty for them. So why couldn't god just do everyone a favour and not let these people be? Nobody, even themselves after they end up in hell, wants them to do what they do, and i can't really see anything good coming from it.

I've sort of forgotten what the initial topic were here, and i can't look that far behind when i'm writing this, so i hope i didn't go too much off topic.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

"You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and i came through the parking lot. And you wont believe what happened! I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357! Can you imagine? Of all the license plates in the state, what was the chance that i would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" - Quote from Richard Feynman (physicist)

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Re: Apatheism
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2006, 06:23:16 AM »
If you read my post then you would notice that i specificly said that (assume you remembered that i'm atheist of course) that i DO NOT recognise evil. I recognise that bad thing happen, but i don't think its because of the divine evil that christians think.

Well then it doesn't matter does it?  ;)
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