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Author Topic: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles  (Read 1657 times)

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Offline Agelmar

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1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« on: April 3, 2008, 12:26:42 PM »
I made this list to see how well I could do with a no vehicle, no Monstrous Creature list.  This is 1850 points.  I decided to go with a more elite list rather than a horde style list.  I've played 6 games so far and have completely eliminated my opponent in all the games.  I didn't think I'd do that well with the list, but it is working rather well.  Does anyone have input on how I could make the list better?

Eldrad   210
10x Scorpions w/ Claw   187
10x Harlequins w/ Kisses, Shadowseer   250
10x Dire Avengers w/ Dual Catapults   137
10x Dire Avengers w/ Diresword, Defend   157
3x Jetbikes w/ Sh Cannon, Warlock, Destructor, Spear   134
6x Warp Spiders w/ Powerblades, Dual Death Spinners   159
6x Warp Spiders w/ Powerblades, Dual Death Spinners   159
2x Vibro Cannons   100
5x Dark Reapers w/ EML, Fast Shot   217
4x Dark Reapers   140

Total - 1850

The points may be slightly off as I'm doing everything from memory.

Eldrad usually hangs with the Scorpions and gives them Fortune, but can also be used to Fortune/Guide the Dark Reapers.  His placement will depend on what enemy you are facing and what the terrain looks like.  I tend to like close combat and therefore, have the power weapons in many of the squads.  I haven't tried this list in a game with escalation yet, but I think it could still perform well.

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #1 on: April 3, 2008, 04:25:20 PM »
I like the looks of this one. I've used footslogging lists before, mostly in campaign settings [as my tourney-style lists tend to be hybrid]. My craftworld fluff limits the use of Seer and Exarch powers to one per fig, and disallows Avatars and Wraiths of any kind [as well as the spiders] so I have some experience in this department. They can be pretty effective, you just have to play with a little more caution.

This being said, from your games, which elements of your list seem to be performing very well, and which seem to play little part or underperform? These would be the areas I would consider altering first, before making any drastic changes, and then possibly only a unit at a time so as not to fiddle with the gestahlt too much.

Your list has been selected for inclusion in the Big List of Eldar Lists project! You will be receiving a score from me using the 5/5 system as outlined in the Big List of Eldar Lists in the stickies on this board. Following is the critique I have given:

Background: .5
Your list certainly has a good track record, but it would be helpful to others to know what sort of opponents [army race and style] you were facing, and the sort of strategies you ahd to implement, especially as the elite infantry Eldar army is a little less common than other configurations. It would also be helpful to know how you would like to improve the list, which may require outlining some of the situations where specific parts of your army were underperforming or struggling. It's good that you included your theme and restrictions though, as that will help narrow the kinds of suggestions you receive.

Composition: 1
Although the troops are a little lighter than I'd prefer at 1850 you still have a good spread of points across your FOC as a whole. Two mainline assault units with several additional powerswords coupled with Eldrad's support powers makes for a decent assault phase, while your shooting comes in good volume with mid-strength weapons [though you lack an AT presence. Even though you have no vehicles you still have decent speed through jetbikes, spiders and harlies. You should be all right in most game phases. Almost all units are scoring units [Eldrad as the exception]. Nicely done.

Utility: 1
All squads are in even numbers except for the one reaper unit and Eldrad; this helps with regrouping and scoring. With the exception of the Reaper team with an Exarch, the bike team's warlock, and the Avengers with Defend, all of your upgrades are chosen for a single purpose and suited to the unit's main task. Not many wasted points with purpose in mind. This is a pretty efficient set of unit selections, which, if fielded right, will do their job very well.

Flexibility: .5
This is where your list struggles a bit; the second reaper team has a few targets beyond its measure, the Avengers of course are only suited to fighting infantry, the spiders may suffer for closing with the enemy as they can't extricate themselves from combat once engaged unless they win [which may be difficult for them]. The scorpions suffer a little in combat and may take some time closing with the enemy [stalker will keep them moving at the same speed as Eldrad if he chooses to join them, otherwise the whole unit slows down a bit!]. Additionally it will be relatively easy for some opponents to discern which squads are the biggest threat and eliminate it, hampering your overall strategy. Not bad, but there may be times you suffer for your precision unit roles.

Ingenuity: 0
A little description of your general strategy with passing mention to a lack of experience in escalation. If this list is working as well as it has been, you should really expand on this area a lot, and have been penalized for not doing so. Since this is a less common Eldar build, many people might open their minds a bit about the need [or lack thereof] to include the more cookie-cutter unit selections and give this a try - but they need to know how to use this army, especially since you've got a bit of experience with it vs a few different enemies [I assume]. When armies work well, people want to know why. You should share your experience so that others [such as myself  ;)] might benefit from it.

Total Score: 3, for a good army list
Really, the main areas you could improve a lot on are explanation of how this army works and where [and against who] it's been working. Many players look to a footslogging list but then go for the obvious power of the holofalcon. You could single-handedly help to stop that trend! I'd like to see you generate some more discussion in this thread, outlining in a new post how you've used this army and what the general tactics in a few games against different opponents were, and any problem areas you noticed. I'll be waiting  ;).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2008, 12:19:29 PM by Gutstikk »

Offline Hammerskull

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #2 on: April 3, 2008, 05:22:14 PM »
Hmm...not much anti-tank capability here.  I'm guessing your opponents to date have not fielded much in the way of high armor value?

Offline Agelmar

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #3 on: April 3, 2008, 06:44:46 PM »
I haven't had a problem yet, even with the marine list that had 7 vehicles.  Since I don't remember the exact circumstances, I'm not sure if I just got lucky.  In general, I don't worry too much about vehicles with higher armor because a couple lascannons don't really bother this list.  I think I might be in trouble with a Tau or Eldar skimmer heavy army, however.  I don't get to play either of these very often, so I'm trying to get some feedback on opponents other than Meqs.

Offline moc065

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #4 on: April 4, 2008, 08:14:36 AM »
Would you mind if we rate this list, as I see some serious areas for other to learn from in it.

Here is a link to the systems we use and what we look for in a List


Eldrad   210
10x Scorpions w/ Claw   187
10x Harlequins w/ Kisses, Shadowseer   250
10x Dire Avengers w/ Dual Catapults   137
10x Dire Avengers w/ Diresword, Defend   157
3x Jetbikes w/ Sh Cannon, Warlock, Destructor, Spear   134
6x Warp Spiders w/ Powerblades, Dual Death Spinners   159
6x Warp Spiders w/ Powerblades, Dual Death Spinners   159
2x Vibro Cannons   100
5x Dark Reapers w/ EML, Fast Shot   217
4x Dark Reapers   140

Total - 1850

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential: There is soem good dedicated anti-tank and lots of support with side/rear armour potential, so ovearll I would say that its, Good (.8 )
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: P-Claw, Rending, AP=3 shooting, mass fire and Doom all add up to covering this are pretty well, Very Good (.9 )
3.. Anti-Horde potential: Vibro's, mass shooting, Doom, e-storm, etc all ad up to covering this area fairly well, it cousl use some more mobile firepower for those altra fast hordes; but otherwies its, Good (.8 )
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: Yup, a good mix of short/mid/long ranged fire power, so its Average (.6 )
5.. Assault potential: 2 Assult units, a couple Holding units, but loads of support all add up to decent assault, Good (.8 )
6.. Scoring Units / point level: 10 scoring at 1850 without Min/Max is, Very Good (.9 )
7.. Durability or Resilience: It has decent saves all around, and loads of bodies to put the wounds on, plus its has some key combo's available to it, so overall its, Good (.8 )
8.. Flexibility: I can see it suffereing form certain lists like highly MEQ or Mech combo's that can either hit it on mass, or work the parimiter; but in general its, Good (.8 )
9.. Mission Capability: I actually can't think of too much that would bother this list, aside from if the terrain is sparce (and this should be addressed in house), so overall I think its, Good (.8 )
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: Footslogger with no MC's, well thats what it is, could it work together ? It sure could. the trick it Set-up and table contorl; but even that is not overly difficult to figure out as the units are pretty well done. Good (.8 )
 
Rating = 8/10 Others may score it differently; but I can se this list doing well in most environments and even making it thorugh many tournament lists if the terrrain was decent, etc.

CaHG.
« Last Edit: April 7, 2008, 12:35:36 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Agelmar

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #5 on: April 4, 2008, 03:24:29 PM »
Go ahead.  I always welcome what other think of my ideas.

Offline Agelmar

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2008, 09:10:41 PM »
Thanks everyone for the input.  As per Gutstikk's request, I'll include what I can remember of the games that I played.  I've only played this list against MEqs.  I don't remember all of the opponents, but I know they were MEqs.  Of the ones I remember:
A Deathwing list (lots of Terminators, whirlwind, scout bikes, dev squad with lascannons, Dreadnaught)
A Ravenwing like list (3 Speeders, a couple bike squads, Land Raider, Special Character on bike/speeder)
Assault heavy marine list (Librarian and Chaplin with assault upgrades, Assault squad, HQ squad with cc weapons, Terminator squad with 2 assault cannons, devastator squad)

I don't remember all the specifics, but in each game we had random missions and level.  None of my games were escalation.

The first thing I will mention about this list is that terrain is very important.  I always play with at least 25% coverage.  It is essential to keep units hidden at various times.

The Dark Reapers and the Vibrocannons provide the long range shooting in this list.  They are there for two reasons.  First, they can cause quite a bit of damage to any squad that tries to sit back and just shoot at them.  Secondly, they are area and game control.  I don't usually expect any of these squads to earn their points back.  They are there to suppress the opponent.  I use them as area control to block certain avenues of approach and to bait the opponent into coming where I want them.  If I do get good shooting, then they perform the second roll anyway.  The vibrocannons tend to intimidate the opponent into placing their tanks in the very back or opposite board side.  I will gladly us 100 points to stop a tank from being a threat because of where they placed it.  The Dark Reapers perform the same function against infantry squads.  I usually set them up in somewhat exposed places to make sure they have good shooting lanes and stop the opponent from setting up where infantry will likely get shot early and often.  Once these are done, I will use Divination to move the squads into good firing lanes, noting the final setup.

My Dark Reapers and Vibrocannons also help out the assault units.  Usually my opponents choose to send their assault units to deal with my fire base instead of trading shots with them.  This helps the Scorpions and Harlequins get into assault earlier.

The Dire Avengers usually work as a single group, with the Defend squad in the front.  They always advance towards terrain that blocks sight to them on the first one or two turns.  After that, they will either advance on firing lines or do a fallback while shooting at advancing enemies.  With these, I'm most worried about Dreadnaughts and Monstrous Creatures getting into combat with them.

The Warp Spiders will also work as a single group most of the time as well.  The second squad is used to ensure that casualties are great for any infantry they are going after, or to add additional shots into tanks.  This squad usually hunts light tanks first and then moves onto infantry.  I don't use their assault jump much because I don't want them to get too far away from support.

The Scorpions and Harlequins will change rolls depending on what the enemy does.  If the opponent has much assault, they will hold near the fire base to be counter charge units.  I tend to always set up where I can get the charge.  If the opponent stays back, then they advance together along a flank to start combat with a firing line.  The two units usually provide enough cover and threat that they can deal with most any single squad.  Most of my opponents never try to overwhelm them with 3 or 4 squads when I advance, so they survive for the most part.

Eldrad has a number of uses in this list.  He will first use Divination to help me make the most of my firing base.  When the game starts, terrain will determine the first powers he uses.  If I can hide the Scorpions well enough, then he will Fortune the Reapers and probably guide them as well.  Otherwise, the opponent usually gives clues as to whether he fears the Scorpions or Reapers more and then whatever he fears most will get fortuned.  The first turn he usually doesn't join a squad.  In subsequent turns, the opponents movements will dictate different powers, but I tend to always have at least one squad fortuned and one enemy doomed.  My favorite use is to put him in with the Scorpions and go on the offensive.

The Jetbikes are the one squad I will let go by themselves.  Mostly, this is because nobody seems to care about the small squad.  I like to use them to go after tanks.  Their speed and lack of apparent threat lets me get closer than I should before any attention is given.  Against a horde list, they would probably stick close to the Warp Spiders and then flamer choice targets and then try to get away.

Now for how things went in my games.

The game against the Deathwing army was scary.  I knew he would be deep striking his terminators into the battle and that the scout bikes would get them in choice locations.  I tried to bunch most of my squads into a corner to prevent some of the damage.  As it turns out, the terminators didn't do much that game.  They shot at Fortuned Reapers in hard cover and then died to massed fire and Harlequin assaults.  The Vibrocannon took out the vindicator after a few turns.  The two problems I saw were the scout bikes and the Dreadnaught.  After taking out the terminators my assault units were out of position and the bikes attacked my fire base.  They took out the Vibros and a squad or Reapers before I could get back with Scorpions.  The Dreadnaught was advancing as well and I had to send the Harlequins in to stop it.  That combat lasted a number of turns and I lost several before I finally killed it.  This was a point where I had the tools to do what I needed, but he pulled me out of position and got quite a few kills in.

The Ravenwing game didn't cause me any issues.  The Warp Spiders and Vibrocannons took down the vehicles while the Dark Reapers took down the bike numbers.  I used the Dire Avengers as a speed bump against his assault squads in order to get good position with my Harlequins and took out most of his force.  I don't think this game could have gone much better for me, but a big part of it was that my opponent didn't respect the lethality of most of my units.

Against the assault based Marines, I also had a very easy time.  The Dark Reapers pounded him on the way in and when he made it into assaults, my squads had no problems taking down the last guys.  I didn't lose many models in this game and I think the biggest issue was that my opponent was too hasty and didn't use terrain to cover himself enough on the advance.

And now there are a few things that I would consider on this list.  The first change I might make is to replace the smaller squad of Dark Reapers with another set of Vibrocannons.  This will limit my MEq killing potential a little, but will make me better against vehicles.  I'd also get a few more points to get Withdraw on the Warp Spiders.  I might also consider using a squad or two of guardians instead of the Dire Avengers.  This would give me a few more bodies and some more long range threat, but I'd lose the tar pit of the Dire Avengers and their higher range guns.

I would like to get some experience against none MEq armies, but that is usually what I play.  I think this list could still do very well, but I don't know yet.

And now that I'm done, I hope it all makes sense.   :)

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: 1850 List with no MC no Vehicles
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 06:10:12 AM »
An excellent write-up on a nicely themed army that doesn't see enough use. Hopefully others will benefit greatly from the detailed explanation you have offered. I myself have been mcuking about with an all infantry force using pretty much the same guidelines [no tanks and no MCs, though I'll use Vypers or Vibros or Walkers], but with less success, which is why I had the interest in seeing how it came together. I'll let you know if this gives me a bit more of an edge.

And now you kinda see how the Big List project should work. Eventually, there oughta be a link to all kinds of Eldar armies from that thread, and there'll be explanation on how they're used. The crits prod people into elaborating on their idea, or considering it from different angles. And in the end, there's an unbelievable wealth of information gathered.

 


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