News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Why no FNP on Riptides?  (Read 4389 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Galef

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: 00
Why no FNP on Riptides?
« on: February 7, 2014, 12:44:19 PM »
I see so many lists with Riptide that have no Stimulant Injector.

I get that it is expensive, but FNP on a unit that is already hard to kill can make him dang-near invulnerable. Especially since you may need the FNP to protect against those failed Nova charges. (and yes you can make FNP against a failed Nova for the same reason you get FNP vs. Perils of the Warp: it isn't a save).

So what is stopping people from taking it?
Glenn's GW model Blog: Glenn's GW Models

Current Armies:
Aeldari: Glenn's GW Minis: Eldar and Dark Eldar

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #1 on: February 7, 2014, 01:14:56 PM »
Cost efficiency.

The Riptide is already so hard to kill that people barely bother trying to kill it--most firepower is wasted on it, and no matter what you do it's going to take a couple turns of concentrated fire before it goes down, so why bother? It's biggest threat is from instakilling weapons, and FNP doesn't protect from that. Even if you use your Nova generator every single turn, the odds of it actually saving you from a wound being caused by overheat during the course of a game is only about 55%.

The cost of the Stim Injector on the Riptide is almost as many points as a whole additional crisis suit. You can get a stealth suit for that much. Almost 4 firewarriors. 5-6 Kroot. The majority of the cost of a piranha. 3 drones scattered around.

The Stim Injector is buying an insurance policy you just don't need. You don't want the thing to be invincible--you want it to soak fire, and nobody will shoot at an invincible thing.

Playing 40K with the attitude that you don't want any of your units to die is coming at the game in the wrong direction, in my opinion. The Riptide can be killed, but it takes a significant investment from the enemy to the point where, even if they do kill it, it's death has been worth the price. Throwing on a Stim Injector isn't as much protection as it seems on the one hand, but is sufficient protection to remove it from your enemy's target list, which is a bad thing. You just don't need it, and it's too expensive for what it does.

Offline Galef

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: 00
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #2 on: February 7, 2014, 02:42:35 PM »
I guess if I were running 2+ Riptides, I'd feel the same.  I don't play Tau (at least not as a primary detachment), but when I face them I either ignore them and they Nova charge themselves, or I charge them and kill them in 1-2 rounds (where FNP would make a difference) with Daemons.

My perspective is coming from an assault army, where FNP is a big benefit.  I guess most Tau players don't expect to be charged.
Glenn's GW model Blog: Glenn's GW Models

Current Armies:
Aeldari: Glenn's GW Minis: Eldar and Dark Eldar

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #3 on: February 7, 2014, 09:15:22 PM »
Well, a couple things (I, also, play daemons, by the way):

1) Number of Riptides really has nothing to do with it. Were I running multiple Riptides, I *still* wouldn't shell out for it--it's a bad buy, full stop.

2) Feel No Pain would make very little difference in assault with anything. Any Tau unit in assault is a dead unit; FNP would only drag it out, and who wants that? I'd rather my Riptide die in a single turn of combat so I can then blow the victorious unit off the map next turn. Besides, instakilling weapons are the *most* common in assault, which, again, bypass Feel No Pain. One dude with a cheap Axe of Khorne kills my Riptide with his expensive Stim Injector, one way or another.

3) Riptides have almost no excuse getting in assault with anything. They have long range weapons, a jetpack, and ought to be hanging around with other units for Supporting Fire. If that can't keep it out of assault, nothing will. I'm certainly not going to bump my Riptide north of 200 points just to *still* die in assault to your Bloodthister.

Seriously, there is no good reason to buy a stim injector for a Riptide outside of sheer paranoia. If you want the thing durable, use a Nova Shield. If you want to get away from something, Nova Boost. If you take a wound from the Nova Reactor, shrug--the thing has a bunch of wounds and a great armor save and an invul--it's still *really* tough.

Offline Galef

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: 00
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #4 on: February 7, 2014, 09:46:03 PM »
From an outsiders point of view, I would taker FNP everytime. Then when those 30+ Flesh hounds get close (and they WILL) I would either charge, or make the Riptide the only viable choice to be assaulted.

Tarpiting assault units has its merits too, afterall. You can use the turn or 2 that the Riptide is stuck in combat to move away and shoot up the rest of the army.
------------------------------------------------------
From the Tau players point of view, I see what you mean. Putting FNP on the Riptide does little to protect against shooting, and only Daemon & Nids have a chance at getting any CC units near the Tau deployment zone. So the 'all-comers' approach would dictate a more cost effective, no FNP, list.
Glenn's GW model Blog: Glenn's GW Models

Current Armies:
Aeldari: Glenn's GW Minis: Eldar and Dark Eldar

Offline GaleRazorwind

  • Hormagaunt
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1419
  • Country: 00
  • Ziltoid Lives!
  • Armies: Nids, BA, CSM
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #5 on: February 8, 2014, 02:33:15 AM »
As a Tau player, I started out by going Velocity Tracker and Stims, and it was just too expensive and it wasn't doing enough good. I swapped it out for interceptor and while I certainly miss the FNP at times, I've gotten a lot more mileage out of being able to peg flyers and DSers the turn they come in.
Ziltoid is so omniscient, if there were to be two omnisciences, he would be both!

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #6 on: February 8, 2014, 09:07:29 AM »
As a Tau player, I started out by going Velocity Tracker and Stims, and it was just too expensive and it wasn't doing enough good. I swapped it out for interceptor and while I certainly miss the FNP at times, I've gotten a lot more mileage out of being able to peg flyers and DSers the turn they come in.

This.

If you get 30+ Flesh Hounds close to my Riptide, I've already lost the game, since to do that you've already gone through everything else I have. Riptides aren't a frontline unit. If people use Riptides as a frontline unit, they deserve (and should expect) to lose it, regardless of the presence of a Stim Injector.

Offline Galef

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: 00
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #7 on: February 8, 2014, 10:41:36 AM »
It has been my experience that Tau have no 'frontline' or 'backfield'. It probably has everything to do with my list having units that move 18"-24" in a turn, so it seems that all their units are as far back as possible.

Even in the games I have lost against Tau, I trap their whole army in a back corner of the board.

There have been situations where my opponent could have won much more easily if he charged my Hounds with his Riptide. Hounds can only wound Riptides on 6's and the Riptide can insta-kill them with smash. Having FNP would help insure that the Riptide at least ties the combat (but more than likely win).  My Pile-in moves would ensure that I could not get a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince into base.

With my super-fast units tied up, the rest of the Tau army can destroy my MCs & troops.
-----------------------
BUUUTTTTT, that only applies if the Tau are fighting a mixed-Daemon Hound-run/Flying circus hybrid list. Admittedly I have only seen 1 such list played...by me.

I guess I get it, but I would still want FNP from time to time.  If I were running Tau primary, I would either have 2 RTs without FNP, or 1 RT with.  Obviously having 2 is better.
----------------------
Slightly off topic, does the same logic apply to Broadsides?  Having 1 unit of 3 XV88 with 2 Stim-Injectors (placed at the front of the unit) would give a ton of survivability to the unit and cost less then putting 1 Stim-injector on a Riptide.

Personally I use Target locks on my XV88s, but in my allied detachment I am using the unit as an anchor with some Marker Drones.  My Drone controller Iridium Commander joins the unit, so I need the Target locks so the Marker lights can hit 1 target and the Commander & XV88s can hit different targets.
Glenn's GW model Blog: Glenn's GW Models

Current Armies:
Aeldari: Glenn's GW Minis: Eldar and Dark Eldar

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5254
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #8 on: February 8, 2014, 02:33:48 PM »
Pretty much all the points I spend go towards offense. If it doesn't kill the enemy somehow, then I'm honestly not interested. The single exception is disruption pods on Devilfish, and then only because I want my mounted squads to hit the enemy simultaneously, and DPods are the best way to make sure that happens.

I don't buy Iridium Armor, Shield Generators, Stim Injectors, Bonding Knives, Vectored Retrothrusters, Counterfire Defense Systems, Automated Repair Systems, Flechette Dischargers, Point Defense Targeting Relays, or Sensor Spines. I occasionally spring for a shield drone or two and the occasional Disruption Pod.

No defensive upgrades you give Tau will allow them to survive combat any better than they do already. You survive combat by not getting into it and taking *so many guns* that the enemy doesn't live long enough to assault you. I can't remember the last time I was successfully assaulted by anybody (well, I had one ork boy make it once, and then he was clubbed to death by Kroot). Granted I have not faced a beast-heavy list like Daemons, but I'm reasonably confident my strategy would work better than wasting points on defensive upgrades that are only marginally useful.

To take the Flesh Hound example you keep bringing up, let's run some numbers on likely scenarios.

Okay, so a unit of 10 Flesh Hounds is in position to charge a Riptide--very possible. That there are still 10 of them alive in your assault phase I will grant you pro bono, though understand that such an eventuality is extraordinarily unlikely in most reasonable scenarios where the rest of the Tau units aren't shooting the fast assaulters first (maybe they've got their own teams of 10 flesh hounds to worry about, who knows?).

Anywho, 10 Hounds Charge. Riptide overwatches (assuming no supporting fire--again, a large assumption) with a SMS and a Ion Accelerator:

SMS: 4 Shots Twin-linked = ~ 1 hit (though, were I facing Flesh Hounds, I'd be running Ripple Fire, so that doubles the hits)
Accelerator: 3 shots = probably nothing, but odds are skating *near* two hits.

2 hits --> ~2-ish wounds --> 1 Dead Hound

So, 9 Hounds (or so) hit the Riptide.

(No FNP): 27 Attacks = 18 hits = 6 wounds = 1 lost wound
(FNP): 27 Attacks = 18 hits = 6 wounds = 1 lost wound with a 33% chance to recoup.

Odds are the Stim Injector does nothing.

I hit back, may as well Smash.

2 attacks = 1 hit = ~1 wound = ~66% chance of a dead hound.

In either scenario, the odds favor me winning combat, with the only major difference being whether the hounds lose by 1 or 2. Instability could even take another couple. Next round, my odds for stomping them only improve.

In the scenario where the Riptide loses combat, it is only likely by about 1, with or without the Injector. I'm testing at 66% odds (or so) to stay in combat.

Considering that the Riptide is packing a instakilling large blast and lots of small arms fire to kill off hounds, the chances I'd willingly charge are really low. One volley from a Ripple-Firing Riptide has good odds of killing 4-5 Hounds, which is honestly better than any amount it would kill in combat.

Accordingly, the Stim Injector really adds very little to this scenario--the Riptide can do the same job every bit as well but for far less of an investment without it.

One of the traps of the Tau, in my opinion, are their wargear upgrades. They're cool, sure, and some of them are legitimately handy (Early Warning Override, Velocity Tracker, Disruption Pod, Puretide Engram, etc.), but the majority are more-or-less pointless. Fun, sure, but the points invested quickly add up to a loss of net offense. The Tau cannot support a loss of offense--their complete ineptitude in the assault phase means they need as many guns on target as often as possible.

Feel No Pain is an upgrade best served on units with low armor saves and high toughness. Nothing the Tau bring to the table really fits the bill. Even broadsides should be able to get by without it.   

Offline Oliver009

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 74
  • Country: gb
  • Armies: Tau
Re: Why no FNP on Riptides?
« Reply #9 on: February 9, 2014, 11:50:10 AM »
I think most of the Stim injector frenzy when the codex came out was down to the Nova generator. They saw it's drawbacks and thought it would be the answer. This was probably before play testing. After some games they have probably come to the same conclusion as Wyddr in terms of the Stim injectors.
They are the solution to a problem that isn't there.

 


Powered by EzPortal