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Author Topic: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)  (Read 2937 times)

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Offline azelexx

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1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« on: December 31, 2009, 05:23:36 PM »
Happy new year everyone!

I'm putting together a 1750 list for 2 upcoming tournaments. I'd like everyone to take a look and feel free to comment.

HQ: 273
Farseer (RoWa, SS, Guide, Fortune) 140
Farseer (SS, Doom, Fortune, Singing Spear) 133

Troops: 396

5x Dire Avengers (60)
5x Dire Avengers (60)
4x Guardian Jetbike (138)
with Jetbike Warlock (Embolden)
4x Guardian Jetbike (138)
with Jetbike Warlock (Embolden)

Elites: 410
5x Fire Dragons (205)
Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers, SS)
5x Fire Dragons (205)
Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers, SS)

Fast Attack: 140
2x Vyper Squadron (Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon) (140)

Heavy Support: 530
Falcon (Scatter Lasers, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones) (175)
Falcon (Scatter Lasers, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones) (175)
3x War Walker Squadron (Twin Scatter Lasers) (180)

Author's Name
Azelexx

Army Theme
Mechdar

Army Size
1749 points, 4 scoring units

Strategy
Resilient Firepower.

Eldar is definitely not the cheapest army to play (both point-wise and pocket wise), any Eldar player trying to roster a competitive list would no doubt spend a decent amount of time trying to optimize their point allocations, meanwhile struggle over the little "either this or this?" situations. At the end of the day, I believe it's up to playstyle more than anything.

My list attempts to fill in the short comings for Eldar, which is obviously (1) Overpriced army (2) Ineffective anti-tank options and (3) Fragile survivability. Feel free to disagree.

Regarding to overpriced (point-wise) army, we're talking about almost every unit in the army. Therefore my list is constructed based on the best price:effectiveness ratio.

(HQ) Farseers as HQ is probability the most beneficial choice as Eldar psychic powers are just that awesome. Especially when any Eldar army will most likely split/spread their forces during the course of gameplay, having two cheap Farseers will make sure your other units get the psychic love they deserve. I put them in falcons so they almost impossible to kill.

(Troops) Scoring units are increasingly vital in 5th Edition tournament missions. At 1750 level I'd say 4-5 is a good number, 3 is kind of pushing it. I chose 5x Dire Avengers in Falcons because it's the most resilient option in the Eldar Army. Sure, you could have guardians in wave serpents or 5x Dire Avengers in wave serpents for a CHEAPER option, but no offense, wave serpents don't really shoot well and are vulnerable at range. Falcons provide S8 pulse lasers and another weapon of choice, allowing it to be a decent threat yet hard to take down at long distance. But then again, BS3 for Eldar vehicles are pretty fail...

As much as I like to have heaps of small squads of Dire Avengers in tanks, the point system does not allow it and the next best option in my opinion are Jetbikes. Putting them in reserve for as long as possible. If they DO come on early, I'd just turbo boost them on my table edge as far away from enemies as possible. However they ARE vulnerable to barrage enemies such as Whirlwinds (URGH hate those things), those threat will try to be neutralized by outflanking walkers.

(Elites) Fire Dragons are the anti-tank life savers of Eldar. Nothing is more point effective than Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents. Amen.

(Fast Attack) See, this is where controversy and the whole "either this or this?" situation comes in. Some people dislikes Vypers and have suggested to me alternatives such as some seer council or close combat specialists (Harlequins) as that's what I'm apparently lacking. However I tend to disagree. Vypers, like War Walkers, are cheap Eldar Mech that are loaded with good weapons. Sure, open top AV10 is weak, but vypers can be where you want WHEN you want (thanks to being a skimmer). At 36" away from the enemy shooting scatter lasers, opponent could waste long range heavy weapons on it..... or deal with the bigger threats such as Fire Dragons zooming your way and walkers dishing out 3 times the scatter laser shots. Therefore vypers are fairly insignificant, but provides synergy with the army.

(Heavy Support) Falcons you could argue that it doesn't fit with my "cheap" army. Because to be honest they ARE pretty expensive. But then again they are your toughest infantry/HQ carriers.

War Walkers is like the biggest bargain in my opinion for the Eldar army. It's like walking into the mall on Boxing Day sale. 180 points for 8 scatter lasers REALLY??? Either put them behind cover (if going 1st turn) or have them outflank. I always put them behind cover, and have a farseer in falcon beside them casting Guide and Fortune... and that's about as annoying as Eldar gets.

Tactica
Tactics wise, if I'm going first turn, I'd deploy falcons and wave serpents and position the walkers where they can start grinding away the enemy, if enemies are in tough mech, then outflank them to deal with long range threats to my jetbikes. Jetbikes are on reserve ALWAYS. Vypers are put on reserve depending on the opponent... but most times they do end up in reserve to see how the battle flows in the first turn, then come up as a supporting unit. Psychologically opponents will be so focused on the 4 annoying skimmer tanks, that they don't pay much attention to the 2 little flies that pops onto the board (unless it's kill points)

Jetbikes just hang around away from the enemy until the time is right to commit (not fight, but capture or contest objectives). If the game doesn't end at turn 5, unfortunately Jetbikes get shot at, assaulted, watnot and hardly survives, so turn 6 and 7 becomes Eldar's favourite "contest-hammer". But thanks to Dire Avengers in Falcons, at least half the scoring units are still safe.

Fluff
Hmm....was never good at stories. But since my army is pretty much a "mirror list" (two of everything), it'll be pretty cool if there was a craftworld where they believed in order and structure so much (because looked how free ambitions and emotions got them into....YES THAT'S RIGHT THE DAMN WARP) that the entire society was based on symmetry and synergy. Patterns and co-operation has become their way of life to the extent that it has become ritualistic. The Mirror Craftworld believed more in technology and firepower more than the wonders of the warp, in fact they try to reduce the usage of warp psychic powers as much as possible. Full mech army was aimed at delivering deadly blows and ending battles quick and swiftly so Farseers could minimize their connection with the warp.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 05:48:58 PM by azelexx »

Offline moc065

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 05:44:16 PM »
The list is somewhat unique, and I appreciate the writeup that came with it... please modify the points costs to be for units only (do not seperate, JB's and Warlocks, etc)... and then I will get it rated for you.

oh and if you have pics of the army, we would love to see them.


HQ: 273
Farseer (RoWa, SS, Guide, Fortune) 140
Farseer (SS, Doom, Fortune, Singing Spear) 133

Troops: 396

5x Dire Avengers (60)
5x Dire Avengers (60)
4x Guardian Jetbike (138)
with Jetbike Warlock (Embolden)
4x Guardian Jetbike (138)
with Jetbike Warlock (Embolden)

Elites: 410
5x Fire Dragons (205)
Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers, SS)
5x Fire Dragons (205)
Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Lasers, SS)

Fast Attack: 140
2x Vyper Squadron (Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon) (140)

Heavy Support: 530
Falcon (Scatter Lasers, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones) (175)
Falcon (Scatter Lasers, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones) (175)
3x War Walker Squadron (Twin Scatter Lasers) (180)

Army Size
1749 points, 4 scoring units

Strategy
Resilient Firepower.

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential FD's are good but their ride is soft, so it could be targeted early, leaving only the Falcons with Str=8 and some side/rear armour options.. thus I rate the AT as Average 0.6
2.. Anti-MEQ potential Plenty of High str shooting to carry down, and Doom might help, but again there is limited dedicated A-MEQ or combo's possible.. .thus I rate it as Average 0.6
3.. Anti-Horde potential Now this section is actually well covered aside from the lack of Tempalte weapons... there are several items to deal with the big bumps in a horde army, and plenty of small arms fire and combo's to help with the masses.. thus I rate it as Above Average 0.7
4.. Ranged Firepower potential Loads of str=6 shooting with the scatters and cannons, etc... its mobility will also help, so ranged firepower is actually Good 0.8
5.. Assault potential Almost non-existant, as the JB's are not that durable, nor do they put out that much offense; if any one area needs to be looked at, this is it... thus I rate it as Well Below Average 0.3
6.. Scoring Units / point level 4 Scoring units at 1750 is quite good, especially with 2 that are tough as nails to get rid of, and 2 that are late game arrivals and highly mobile, considering the rest of the army can also contest..... thus I rate this area as Good 0.8
7.. Durability or Resilience I do see the JB's as a weakpoint; but at the same time, if their in reserves or well hidden, they could become the scoring factor... Thus the playstyle of the army will be critical, as well as Target Priority... I think it has the potential to do really well, or really poorly, so I will only rate it as Average as too much depends on the Players/Opponents ability 0.6
8.. Flexability I see a few decent tactics being viable (flank rush, refused flank, Ground and Pound)... but without an Autarch to make Reserves a little more dependable, without any real assault potential, etc.. this list is not that Flexible... Shake the Vehicles, target the Vypers and Walkers one unit at a time, then pick off the Scoring units... this list will get put down... Espcially if you face a very fast opponent with serious assault potential and AT. It does have some neat shooting things in its favour though... thus I rate it as Average 0.6
9.. Mission Capabiliy It should do well enough for Mission Objective games; but holy cow... 14 KP's at this points level is not great (especially when a couple are real soft)... thus I rate it as Average (at best) 0.6
10. Dynamics and/or Theme I like the unique mix of some units; but at the same time, I am not a fan of so many Min/Max units... I find Eldar can do well with this; but more often, Quality is better than Quantity... Anyway, its certainly peeked my interest so I will score it as Very Good for its unique items to deal with... 0.9

Rating = 6.5/10:  Others will rate it differently, and I can see many people actually scoring it lower than I did... I do see this as a "Fun" list and would be hesitant to take it to tournies... But at the same time, it can crank out 60+ str=6+ shots if used well, and that could seriously hurt many opponents.


Cheers
« Last Edit: January 2, 2010, 06:37:19 PM by moc065 »
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Offline azelexx

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 05:54:44 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I've updated the points (is that they way you want it?).

Regards to pictures.... I've only started playing 3 months ago and my army is still mostly black... haha so in due time I'll try practice my painting so it's good enough for display XD

Rating and suggestions and perhaps your views on how to use the army are all very appreciated.

Offline Ail-Shan

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 07:19:47 PM »
First off I'm sorry to say that I hate every one of your troop choices. I stand by the philosophy that if it is not contributing to the game every turn that it is on the table (positioning counts as doing something) in some way it is not worth taking. Your troops only contribute on the last 1-3 turns of the game, where as even something that does no damage but just takes a beating is at least drawing away firepower.

So now that I've gotten that out of the way:

I would suggest dropping the vyper shuricannons and either upgrade the Falcons to having EMLs (if you want them to hang back) or to give the falcons a second shuricannon (if they will be closer to the enemy). One option gives you more ranged anti tank that is very useful against transports while the other gives you more anti infantry and allows your Falcon to be useful longer since it will take more weapon destroyed results to effectively silence it. If you'd rather you could drop the dragon serpent weapons from lasers to shuricannons which will give you the same amount of points but will likely detract from your army less (I'm guessing that you flat out with vypers the turn they come in to position them and then move them less than 6" to fire both guns correct?). The list is interesting, but it may be more beneficial to combine your seers (one with ss, RoWa, doom and guide) and use the extra points for an autarch to benefit your reserves, making your vypers more reliable. Since your infantry are all small squads and vehicles are hard to get cover saves for without flatting out you shouldn't need fortune too much (you may experience otherwise). The problem with fortuning war walkers is that 50% of them has to be hidden to get the save, which is hard to get with (at least my) terrain, especially since most of the war walker is higher up, so if it is obscured it's also likely not all the guns can see. This means that fortune wont benefit them too much, especially if your opponent takes first turn and gives you a low cover side of the table. If you have them outflank there's a decent chance that they come on to late (when combined with your vypers and jetbikes that is 596 points not helping you for at least one turn).
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Offline OneMeanChicken

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 07:28:34 PM »
Quote
My list attempts to fill in the short comings for Eldar, which is obviously (1) Overpriced army (2) Ineffective anti-tank options and (3) Fragile survivability. Feel free to disagree.

#1: ya some things could use point alterations but thats true in pretty much every codex
#3: True but you can also have one of the most resilient armies out there.. Its all how you field it.

I disagree with number 2... Eldar have some of the best anti tank in the game. Its just different then every other army in the game. Name another squad in this game that ever model has a melta gun and a melta bomb... Bright lances are expensive and sometimes ineffective but ask any land raider player what weapons he fears most of all (Except Tau) and he will point to your lances over melta guns, lascannons, ect ect ect. And lets not forget the warlock squad able to smash multiple tanks in one assault phase... And your skimmers can flank and hit back/side armor more easily then any other army out there...
No its not the standard point and shoot every other army is used to but its still very effective anti-tank. (Being a tau and eldar player I would argue eldar is number2 on the anti-tank in the game... Still nothing beats a rail gun and I have proven that time and time again!)

Sorry about the rant...
As for your army its very unique and I like it! My only concern is Kill point games... You have 17 kill points and 5 being walkers/vypers which are incredibly ez to kill.... And you jetbike squads even if you jump around can still be brought down rather easily. You run up against an orc mob army with a few rokkits or really any low KP army with some firepower and you will most likly lose. A mech army will smash that in KP also because u small dragon squads are really you only effective antitank and those need to be up close and personal to do anything...

Just my opinion though. It matters what type of armies you play against in the tourny.

Offline Ail-Shan

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #5 on: January 1, 2010, 12:24:53 AM »
Not sure how you're adding, but if those vypers are 1 squadron it's only 14 kill points, and the vypers and walkers only form 2. I don't think KP missions would be too bad considering the jet bikes will be in reserve (possibly along with the vypers) and the rest of the infantry will rarely leave their vehicles which are tough to kill.
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Offline azelexx

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #6 on: January 1, 2010, 02:09:59 AM »
@Ail-Shan: Jetbikes are probably not doing much until late game, however Falcons are shooting at range per turn. And some opponents tend to try and shoot it down (usually failing to do so) thus it is an awesome fire power absorber (which i think you've kinda mentioned). What would you take instead? Guardians and Rangers that gets beaten in CC and templates?

Playing around with vehicle weapon combination is definitely something I am keen to play test one by one to see the results. As for cover, my local GW terrain has buildings here and there to turbo-boosting behind, getting walkers behind cover has never been a problem for me either. But you're right, maybe in proper tournaments the terrain may vary.

As for autarch....I really don't see how he fits into the army, let alone out-perform a farseer... please elaborate?

@OneMeanChicken: Bright lances are 40 points.... way too expensive for a BS3 based army. Fire Dragon needs to go up close and personal (and die next turn), warlock squads are way way too expensive and not effective at small numbers.

A good player will hardly let you shoot his rear armor.... he/she can easily anticipate how far skimmers can move and swivel his/her vehicles. I think a marine army with BS4 lascannons (some being twin-linked) are much more reliable than what Eldar has against tanks. And they get it for much much cheaper for many more different units (which in MEQ case are tougher to kill). Warpspider with heavy weapon anyone? That'll be mean.

Regarding to jetbikes I've realised one critical problem. And that's their commitment on turn 5 (random game end). If all goes well and I'm able to contest + capture enough objectives with my falcons and other skimmers, then I would usually wait until turn 6 or 7 to turbo boost my jetbikes onto objectives. However when it's a draw or enemy will potentially win after turn 5, committing jetbikes is a really dangerous move. To temporary solve this, I often to prefer going second, so that I can move without a definite reply of fire before game ends.

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone!

Offline Ail-Shan

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #7 on: January 1, 2010, 06:43:36 PM »
The falcons are good and I have no problem with them. I however am not a fan of the 5 DAVU avengers in each. But, you don't seem to have any other good way to incorporate troops in your list, so they actually should be fine. The jet bikes however are expensive units that are not doing much in your army other than capturing/contesting objectives. However I'm not exactly sure how you would remedy that. I'm not a fan of guardian jet bikes in the first place though.

My main concern was that if you were keeping the vypers and jet bikes off the table you would be fighting short quite a few points in the first few turns, especially if you had poor reserve rolls. As a remedy for that I was suggesting you exchange a farseer for an autarch for the reserve bonus. What I don't see in your list is what the fortune/doomseer is doing in your list. If you could explain that that would be helpful.
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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #8 on: January 2, 2010, 12:45:18 AM »
If you are putting your Farseers in your DAVU Falcons, I don't see the point in taking doom...Two guide seers would be more optimal (to guide the Falcon's poor BS). With putting everything in reserve, and not having any real infantry that need to drop out to shoot something other than the Dragons (where doom is not needed as it doesn't work on vehicles) Doom is wasted. Save for the Dragons, nothing should really be getting that close to the enemy to require doom, let alone even be in doom range.

I would drop a DAVU to increase the size of both JB squads.


Offline moc065

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #9 on: January 2, 2010, 06:45:22 PM »
I rated the list above... a+ for uniqueness, but a D for Min/Max.. overall, I see it as a "Fun" list... but please do read the rating above...

I think that your Farseer's are overbuilt a little, the Serpents could have TL-BL's for ranged AT, also consider having the FD exarch with DBF and CS... as the squad can still drop tanks, and the added flamers do help. After that, EML's on the Falcon are just better in the long run as they provide short move added AT, or moving anti-infantry.. etc... The JB units could use one more bike a piece so that the first casualty is not forcing a moral check...

Cheers... Nice and unique though, so the surprise could cripple some opponents
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Offline azelexx

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #10 on: January 2, 2010, 09:55:28 PM »
@ Ali-Shan: I see what you mean about jetbikes not really contributing to the army. Which scoring unit would you prefer?

@ Partninja: Good point about doom, what I find in pitch battles is that, it's really hard to always stay away 36"+ away from the player as the table is too small. Having said that, I've used doom about max 3 turns per game, so you're right, I'll play test this tonight.

@ moc065: Thankyou very much for the review, your suggestions add up to alot of extra points which at 1750 is hard to make up for, what would you suggest dropping or degrading?

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #11 on: January 2, 2010, 10:57:41 PM »
Hey guys, I've added the following adjustments onto my list, mainly aimed at increasing anti-tank capability without reducing horde control by too much (mainly adding BL and EMLs and Shuriken Cannons to compensate the loss of Scatter Lasers)

To make up for the point loss, I replaced jetbike warlock with a standard jetbike guardian, I've also made both seers guide/fortune.

5x Fire Dragons has worked reliability for me, so I see no need of increasing its size or adding an exarch. I decided to give the more expensive bright lance to falcons as it goes well range-wise with the pulse laser, also they can be guided and is a bigger threat to AV12+ armies.

HQ: 265
Farseer (RoWa, SS, Guide, Fortune) 140
Farseer (SS, Guide, Fortune, Singing Spear) 133

Troops: 340
5x Dire Avengers (60)
5x Dire Avengers (60)
5x Guardian Jetbike (110)
5x Guardian Jetbike (110)

Elites: 420
5x Fire Dragons (210)
Wave Serpent (TL EML, SS)
5x Fire Dragons (210)
Wave Serpent (TL EML, SS)

Fast Attack: 140
2x Vyper Squadron (Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon) (140)

Heavy Support: 530
Falcon (Bright Lance, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) (200)
Falcon (Bright Lance, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones, Shuriken Cannon) (200)
3x War Walker Squadron (Twin Scatter Lasers) (180)

Total: 1748 points.

I had success last night placing walkers and vypers behind cover and fortuning them. Thus outflanking and reserving isn't the only option anymore, if I go second, I would hide them behind transport.

What do you all think? A better list?

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #12 on: January 2, 2010, 11:01:49 PM »
Put the Falcons with EML, the Serpents with BL's... seriously... and get the Embolden Warlocks back in the list...

2 JB's, 1-2 TL-Bl, and 2 EML's are not that much (to start with).. so Trim each Farseer to one Power each (about 90pts saved already) Enough to maybe even add an FD Exarch upgrade with DBF ...

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Offline bebe

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Re: 1750 Tournament Mechdar List (Please rate if possible)
« Reply #13 on: January 2, 2010, 11:20:55 PM »

I think the list is quite playable although it is not my normal style.

Moc ...

You might recall that I tested a similar list

Autarch, Fusion Gun
Farseer Fortune RoWard
2x 5 FD w/Exarch DBF in WS Scat/Cannon
3x 5 DaVU in WS EML/Cannon
2x Fire Prism

The critical differences is that overloaded on vehicles at 1500 points - at 1750 I would overload it even more by adding in more Dragons. Falcons in a WS are not that soft it is when they disembark that you have problems. So screen them well or use more. I see the biggest problem with the list is the GJBs which are very soft and not doing much. One larger squad  with Embolden Exarch would be better and cheaper. I also like Vypers with all Cannons but that's me. Vypers can work but you need to be careful with them and I see there are no Star Engines which might help in the OP's list.  Then again it is only my opinion.
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