News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars  (Read 4476 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« on: January 31, 2009, 10:49:39 AM »
With my recent luck on Skimmers (ramming a Dark Eldar Raider -> Destroying my Holofalcon, the inability of passing a tank cover save) and the comparably low damage output on Mech lists I searched for options on how to setup a resilient competetive tournament list. As well against AT heavy opponents it often ends up in a runaway game and I prefer the opponent to withdraw.

Lots of Melters and strong close combat units in the current Metagame asked for ways to prevent getting those weapons close to my tanks. The mech environment on the other hand forces you to play a good amount of Anti-Tank weaponry. As well there needs to be a way to limit the dangers of deepstriking/droppoding units.

Observing a Iyanden list and exchanging ideas with a fellow Eldar player (Thanks, Athenys!) I came up with this design finally. Probably an at least similar version can be found in the POC Iyanden thread already, so I will at least add some thoughts on the design and strategy.


HQ:
Eldrad Ulthran

Elite:
8 Harlequins
   with 8 Kisses, Shadowseer

Troops:
10 Dire Avengers
     incl. Exarch, Double Catapult, Bladestorm
     Serpent with Laserlance, Spirit Stones

9  Dire Avengers
     incl. Exarch, Shimmershield, Defend
     Serpent with Shurikencannon, underslung Shurikencannon, Spirit Stones

10 Wraithguard
     incl. Spiritseer with Enhance Conceal

Support:
1 Wraithlord with Double Flamers, Spiritsword and Brightlance
1 Fire Prism
1 Fire Prism

Total: 1749 Points
44 models, 10 Kill Points, 3 Scoring Units

*****************************************************

The overall strategy is approaching with the Wraithguard and putting pressure on you opponent, possibly contesting 2 mission objectives with the line of Wraith Constructs while having the option of mobile troops for the far away objectives. The army should be able to create anti-tank and anti-personnell firepower on short, medium and long range as well as listing countercharge units for intercepting assaulters going for the main line. And it's always the dangerous CC units going for the Wraithguard, isn't it, Starky?
Holding the line with the Wraithguard and joining the close combat with your counter assaulters a turn later allows you to limit the return attacks due to positioning rules why putting a good number of wounds on your opponent.

Why playing which unit?
- For HQ there is only one Farseer capable of getting rid of Power fists, Fortuning multiple units and spelling doom on your current target. As well he enables you to push backwards the opponent in some settings, limiting his cover choices. Depending on the opponent he can go with the Guard, hide from mass fire power in the Harlies or giving more CC power to your defensive Avengers.

- For Elites it was a head to head competition between Scorps and Harlies. The latter won due to the facts of their increased mobility being difficult to target and being the tool of choice against those units capable of winning close combat with your Wraithguard (MCs, Deamons, Genestealers, Death Company, Assault Terminators...)

- Troops. The list was designed around wraithguard, see above for the reasons. Avengers were selected against Guardians for these reasons. They are better in intercepting dangerous units for your Wraithguard, be it by weakening them with Bladestorm or jumping into the assault vector of terminators for example. Usually they are held back for the first turns having the Serpents opening fire over range.

- In support I wanted to overcome the issue of Iyanden lists against horde armies and their short fire range. Due to the facts of my opponents rolling excellently for armour penetration I didn't want to sink more points into the Prisms.
The Wraithlord on the other hand should be a threat for Greater Demons, Demon Princes and other MCs coming close as well as Deepstriking Dreadnoughts. Approaching with the Wraithguard he can threat assault vehicles and swing prolonged combats into your favour by wounding tough creatures and instakilling characters. That's why he won against Yriel.

edited list due to lack of Spiritseer
« Last Edit: February 1, 2009, 07:44:23 AM by Kaminari »

Offline LordofMuck

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 146
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 11:39:14 AM »
Very nice list Kaminari!
I like, alot in fact  :)

I myself play Full Mech, a friend of mine fully footslogging Iyanden (Wraith Guard, Farseer, Avatar, Wraithlords, Dark reapers, Harlies, Banshees, Guardians, Avengers)... both i think are good lists...

but i think YOUR list is in fact a very good combined approach. Having some of the benefits of both approches. I esp. like that your non-mech elements arent really that vulnerable to anti-inf. firepower so they should synergise good with your mech elements in terms of denying the enemy good use of parts of his firepower.

I will be curious as to how your list fares vs. competitive all-comers?
Im sad to say i have NO suggestions for improvements actually!(my only thought was fire dragons in a serpent, but i cant really find anything to take out of your list to get them in... if you go to like 2000pts with this list, thats what i would add)

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

  • Infinity Circuit | Painboy
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
  • Country: us
  • Faith is my shield, the Wailing Doom is my sword!
    • Click here for generic Math-Hammer tool.
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 02:21:54 PM »
My only suggestion is to swap Enhance on the Spiritseer for Conceal.  Moving out in the open like that, your Wraithguard will be vulnerable to AP 3 weaponry.  Conceal plus Fortune will go a long way towards mitigating that for you.  In addition, you really don't want to rely on the Wraithguard to do the killing for you in close combat.  That's what Eldrad (sort of) and the Harlequins are for.   :)
"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the unprepared.

Join the Swordwind!


My Eldar Project

Chaplain Swordwind is right about, ehm...everything.

Offline Starrakatt

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2702
  • Country: ca
  • Bitter Vet
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 09:23:33 PM »
Lots of Melters and strong close combat units in the current Metagame asked for ways to prevent getting those weapons close to my tanks. The mech environment on the other hand forces you to play a good amount of Anti-Tank weaponry. As well there needs to be a way to limit the dangers of deepstriking/droppoding units.
Be careful with the Harlies/Serpent for Drop Pods/Deep Strikers, they get sooo easy to kill if one get nearby (Flamers/Melta), as you surely experienced...
I read Lazarus says that he use Eldrad to Fortune the Harlies following the Wraithguard - I say it is quite sound, especially if you can manage to park them in cover.

Quote
I came up with this design finally. Probably an at least similar version can be found in the POC Iyanden thread already, so I will at least add some thoughts on the design and strategy.
I think so, although I am too lazy to go check - Note that I've never played th two Prism list (yet).

Quote
HQ:
Eldrad Ulthran

Elite:
8 Harlequins
   with 8 Kisses, Shadowseer

Troops:
10 Dire Avengers
     incl. Exarch, Double Catapult, Bladestorm
     Serpent with Laserlance, Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers
     incl. Exarch, Shimmershield, Defend
     Serpent with Shurikencannon, Spirit Stones

10 Wraithguard
     incl. Warlock/Spiritseer with Enhance (might Swap for Cover Save)

Support:
1 Wraithlord with Double Flamers, Spiritsword and Brightlance
1 Fire Prism
1 Fire Prism

Total: 1746 Points
45 models, 10 Kill Points, 3 Scoring Units
I like the list, a strong core (Eldrad as a champion with the WG is gold), but you need to be careful with the naked Prism I guess and again, be very, very wary of Deep Striking units (whatever form they may take) that can get to your Harlies, as they are your sole mean of pulling off some efficient CC duty, expect versus CC weak armies like T'au and IG - or even horde Bugs units deprived of MCs/Genestealers...
Note that a charge from a big Wraithguard unit in most Horde units (Ork, Bugs, conscripts and whatnot) should see you come up on top of that CC round - My WG/Farseer once were Assaulted by a Doomed 15 strong Stromboys squad and with Fortune/Powerklaw wound assignation on the Warlock, won the fight by 6 or 7.

Quote
The overall strategy is approaching with the Wraithguard and putting pressure on you opponent, possibly contesting 2 mission objectives with the line of Wraith Constructs while having the option of mobile troops for the far away objectives. The army should be able to create anti-tank and anti-personnell firepower on short, medium and long range as well as listing countercharge units for intercepting assaulters going for the main line.
It works well on paper, although once you hit that Land Raider Crusader delivery TH/SS Termie squad in the face, theory is worth as much as used toilet paper. The more I play, the more I feel the need to take 2 or 3 long range AT guns to take these LRs/Nobz Trucks/Battlewagon.
In fact, you may have to develop a tactic(s) to sacrifice a unit/vehicle in order to get said Termies/Nobz in the open for a goof round of shooting, something that is difficult to achieve with low numbers.

Quote
And it's always the dangerous CC units going for the Wraithguard, isn't it, Starky?
Oh yes - Death Company, Genestealers, Termies (any flavour), Nobz, Marneus Calgar, name them...
At least, Genestealers aren't hard to kill and MCs have either a low number of Attacks or aren't strong enough to wipe out Wraithguard rapidly - Heck, a Hive Tyrant hits on 3+, then only wound on 4+, then you can alocate the first wound on the Spiritseer...

Quote
Holding the line with the Wraithguard and joining the close combat with your counter assaulters a turn later allows you to limit the return attacks due to positioning rules why putting a good number of wounds on your opponent.
Again, works well if there isn't too much Powerfist/Claws involved. Best with a good CC squad is to 'wing' the target unit, so there isn't too much return attacks to the Harlies.

Quote
The Wraithlord on the other hand should be a threat for Greater Demons, Demon Princes and other MCs coming close as well as Deepstriking Dreadnoughts. Approaching with the Wraithguard he can threat assault vehicles and swing prolonged combats into your favour by wounding tough creatures and instakilling characters.
Yes. Although unless you face very easy to kill at range vehicles (like AV10/Open Top ones) or very hard (AV 14 LRs) youmay as well run the bastard in CC where he can rip them a new one - Circumstancial of playing defensive or offensive of course.

Point of note: I wonder if you took the Spiritseer upgrade cost over the Warlock to make the Wraithguard count as a Troop.
Point of note 2: Chaplain Swordwind is right - Unless you are runnin two Wraithguard units, take Conceal anyday of the weak - Unless facing no ap3 or better firepower (Nids, some Orks...).

   Hope it helps,

   Starky :)

Join the POC: Craftworld Iyanden - The Ghost Warriors

Quote from: Farceseer Siranaul
Yes you are being dense.

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #4 on: February 1, 2009, 07:32:18 AM »
Be careful with the Harlies/Serpent for Drop Pods/Deep Strikers, they get sooo easy to kill if one get nearby (Flamers/Melta), as you surely experienced...
I read Lazarus says that he use Eldrad to Fortune the Harlies following the Wraithguard - I say it is quite sound, especially if you can manage to park them in cover.
The deepstriker lists caused most of trouble during list creation as reserve-style is not valid here. Nevertheless I have seen that a good portion of the danger can be overcome most of the time by doing a corner setup with Harlies and Fire Prisms cowering close to the table while being shielded by Wraithguard, Serpents and occasionally dismounted Avengers setup by full use of the 2" formation rule. This way you occasionally can get Melters and Flamers away of your vulnerable units. If the opponent dares to deploy close now you can bring your whole army to use against this part, if not make use of the run rule to get close to the next mission objectives.
An example of this setup with embarked Avengers you can find below. With disembarked Avengers you can create an even bigger bubble against certain units.
Fun with the Picasa Link. Trying to fix it at home.

Sometimes the Defending Avengers will gratefully provide their transport for Harlie use (e.g. in case of corner sitting Exorcists). In case of early loosing the Harlies it is up to the Defending Avengers and Wraithlord to keep dangerous units away locked.
Quote
I like the list, a strong core (Eldrad as a champion with the WG is gold), but you need to be careful with the naked Prism I guess and again, be very, very wary of Deep Striking units (whatever form they may take) that can get to your Harlies, as they are your sole mean of pulling off some efficient CC duty, expect versus CC weak armies like T'au and IG - or even horde Bugs units deprived of MCs/Genestealers...
Note that a charge from a big Wraithguard unit in most Horde units (Ork, Bugs, conscripts and whatnot) should see you come up on top of that CC round - My WG/Farseer once were Assaulted by a Doomed 15 strong Stromboys squad and with Fortune/Powerklaw wound assignation on the Warlock, won the fight by 6 or 7.
I count Eldrad, Wraithlord, and Defending Avengers to be CC capable in a certain amount as well and didn't want to rely on the Harlies alone. I saw Athenys' Wraithlist without any close combat units despite 2 AT-Lords work fine, though it asked for careful movement.
It's been your reports that made me consider using the Wraithguard and devastating several multiple units at once and do some test scenarios.  :)

Quote
It works well on paper, although once you hit that Land Raider Crusader delivery TH/SS Termie squad in the face, theory is worth as much as used toilet paper. The more I play, the more I feel the need to take 2 or 3 long range AT guns to take these LRs/Nobz Trucks/Battlewagon.
In fact, you may have to develop a tactic(s) to sacrifice a unit/vehicle in order to get said Termies/Nobz in the open for a goof round of shooting, something that is difficult to achieve with low numbers.
Indeed, the Land Raider charge caused most of the trouble (be it Termies or Berzerkers, Abbaddon, etc.), but it did so with the Mech list as well. Therefore I wanted the Brightlance on the Serpent and the Wraithlord as well as the Prisms focussed beam in the list at all costs to cause a possible immobilized. And I am willing to sacrifice e.g. the Wraithlord, Defending Avengers or a tank to put them into the way of the Charge Range against this precious scoring unit of Wraithguard, so that I might open fire on those Termies on my turn. It's the same for bossbikers (at least it gets more interesting for you if you hide in cover. Dangerous terrain anyone?)

Quote
At least, Genestealers aren't hard to kill and MCs have either a low number of Attacks or aren't strong enough to wipe out Wraithguard rapidly - Heck, a Hive Tyrant hits on 3+, then only wound on 4+, then you can alocate the first wound on the Spiritseer...
Yes, yes, yes,yes, yes... ;D ;D ;D

Quote
Again, works well if there isn't too much Powerfist/Claws involved. Best with a good CC squad is to 'wing' the target unit, so there isn't too much return attacks to the Harlies.
Winging is the essence of the Harlies survival if they are not able to wipe out their target!

Quote
Yes. Although unless you face very easy to kill at range vehicles (like AV10/Open Top ones) or very hard (AV 14 LRs) youmay as well run the bastard in CC where he can rip them a new one - Circumstancial of playing defensive or offensive of course.
A Swordlord is one of the best options in our codex besides Firedragons to get rid of vehicles. The option ro reroll attacks allows you to even hit moving targets.

Quote
Point of note: I wonder if you took the Spiritseer upgrade cost over the Warlock to make the Wraithguard count as a Troop.
:-[ Oooops. Changed in the list. Removed one defending Avenger and added a Shurikencannon for the inclusion of a Spiritseer.

Quote
Point of note 2: Chaplain Swordwind is right - Unless you are runnin two Wraithguard units, take Conceal anyday of the weak - Unless facing no ap3 or better firepower (Nids, some Orks...).
I was running the thought of improved cover saves and majoritiy of attacked unit in cover along with screening Harlies, tanks and Wraithlords that I should be able to circumvent the need for Conceal. I thought the danger for Wraithguard coming mostly from CC and having the opponent hit you on 4+ instead of 3+ in lots of cases should reduce the impact of powerfists. But when thinking more closely about it, it chains your movement in too many ways and is still cover dependant, so that now I am leaning more and more towards conceal.

Quote
   Hope it helps,

   Starky :)
Indeed it did!

I hope to get some test games going soon against such beloved lists as:
- Double LR with Berserkers, Lash Sorceror and Abbaddon
- Oracle, Blood Daemon and Juggernauts Reroll Rumble
- Boss Bikers
- Battle Wagon Waaaagh
- Vulkan Hestan's Fire from the Emperor
- Dreadnought Drop
- Exorcist Immolator Spam
- Dark Eldar Raider Spam
« Last Edit: February 2, 2009, 02:21:36 AM by Kaminari »

Offline haunt

  • Aspect Warrior | I Won the Eldar Army List Competition, and All I Got Was This Title!
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1150
  • Country: us
  • Play and have fun.
  • Armies: Eldar, Dark Angel, Tyranids, Necrons and Tau
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #5 on: February 1, 2009, 05:34:18 PM »
Great list and options, hope you're able to get your tests done. Good luck.
This is where Death rejoices, as he teaches the living.

Hoc est ubi mors gaudet, quod ipse docet vivis.

Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 04:55:24 AM »
Had the chance to test the list in a series of games now. The list runs fine but not more than that.  :(
It's true weakness are those high-mobile killer-CC units (Crusader-born Hammer Termies preferrably Vulkan-led, Abbadon+Berserkers, boss bikers). Good players try to immobilize your Serpents before setting up the wraithguard charge. With maneuvering you usually can just delay the inevitable. The problem is that those units mentioned are able to bypass the dangerous area of the wraithcannons, do a charge over 20"+something and eradicate the whole wraithguard unit on the charge, making your countercharge kind of... effortless.
If there would be a more reliable way to immobilize a Landraider in the first 2 turns over the distance, the list could become great. But I failed all Prism/brightlance penetration rolls for that. :(

Against all kind of enemy fire, including battle-/demolisher cannons they can fare well with fotuned conceal and against less than those killer units they quickly turn the combat resolution. Especially against hordes you won't believe how quickly you can clear the table between Prisms and the CC-resolution.

Dropping Dreadnoughts are usually not to be feared. Either they are shot to pieces once landed, or your countercharge wipes them off the table. A nice no-go-area is being established by wraithcannons against vehicles and you disallow several standard aproach tactics for Mech-MEQs.

Offline -Dark Fire-

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 216
  • Previously Spear of Khaine
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 06:16:28 AM »
How does this fare versus light vehicle spam? For example, I'm just starting a Sisters of Battle army where @1750 there are 9 vehicles - 5 rhinos, 3 Exorcists and an Immolator. That's not even the 'spammiest' - on the =I= boards at the moment (in my thread on LVS and KPs) there's a list Draza found from a tournie winner in Las Vegas that has 10 Immo.s and 2 rhinos! Rending flamers could take down the W.Guard as Exorcists/melta spam nail Lords and WSs. All vehicles have smoke as well. Just a warning lol.
'There is no art more beautiful and diverse as the art of death.'

Laconfir of Biel-Tan

Offline moc065

  • Infinity Circuit / Necrontyr Lord / KoN Warlord
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8827
  • Country: ca
  • King of the Preemptive Strike
    • klucas.piczo.com
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 07:09:12 AM »
HQ:
Eldrad Ulthran

Elite:
8 Harlequins
   with 8 Kisses, Shadowseer

Troops:
10 Dire Avengers
     incl. Exarch, Double Catapult, Bladestorm
     Serpent with Laserlance, Spirit Stones

9  Dire Avengers
     incl. Exarch, Shimmershield, Defend
     Serpent with Shurikencannon, underslung Shurikencannon, Spirit Stones

10 Wraithguard
     incl. Spiritseer with Enhance Conceal

Support:
1 Wraithlord with Double Flamers, Spiritsword and Brightlance
1 Fire Prism
1 Fire Prism

Total: 1749 Points
44 models, 10 Kill Points, 3 Scoring Units

*****************************************************

The overall strategy is approaching with the Wraithguard and putting pressure on you opponent, possibly contesting 2 mission objectives with the line of Wraith Constructs while having the option of mobile troops for the far away objectives. The army should be able to create anti-tank and anti-personnell firepower on short, medium and long range as well as listing countercharge units for intercepting assaulters going for the main line. And it's always the dangerous CC units going for the Wraithguard, isn't it, Starky?
Holding the line with the Wraithguard and joining the close combat with your counter assaulters a turn later allows you to limit the return attacks due to positioning rules why putting a good number of wounds on your opponent.

Do you mind if I add this to "The Big List of Eldar Lists" for review, scoring, and with links for others to follow.

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential All the units have some AT options.... some are limited; but they do have them, so this area is decently covered. Good 0.8
2.. Anti-MEQ potential Nnot a huge load of dedicated anti-MEQ; but it has some numbers in its favour as well as combo's, so overall its about Average 0.6
3.. Anti-Horde potential Here I see some good numbers for mid ranged shooting, CC action as well as holding power, combo's etc... so overall I think this area is Good 0.8
4.. Ranged Firepower potential I would have like to see at leat one more TL-BL in the list (easy to do one second Serpent); but overall it does cover the bases well, Above Average 0.7
5.. Assault potential Here is has some big winners and some big losers.. The Harlies are good, but they need to get there; the Wraithlord is decent, but lacks numbers.. etc.. so in the end I just see it as Average 0.6
6.. Scoring Units / point level 3 Scoring units is decent, especially when you consider the potential resilience etc... overall I would say that this type of force is viable at this points level in regard to scoring units, overall I rate it above Average 0.7
7.. Durability or Resilience Mechanized, Super tought, "near-untargetable" all combine to make this a pretty tough list overall, in fact I think its up there in regard to overall durability and rate it ar Very Good 0.9
8.. Flexability I can alomst guarentee what the Wraithguard and Wraithlord will be doing in most games, that means that Big-E will be situated accordingly, and then the rest is support, pincers, hammers, whatever you wanna call it... Its still flexible; but it does have its limits, so overall I think its about Average 0.6
9.. Mission Capabiliy Yup. With its limited Kill Points, combination of Speed and resilience, fire power and assault ability... not to mention same added little tricks and twists, I think that this list is exceptionally mission capable, and rate it as Excellent 1.0
10. Dynamics and/or Theme Theme is out the window as soon as you add a named character and don't use his story line for list ideas... but the Dynamics or synergy is certainly there, and there in spades... I see this a Classic Hammer and Anvil list, or a Zulu Pincer list, all the units support each other and they are designed for specific function as well as a back up plan.. Nice and due to this I also rate this area higher than most lists that use a Named Character as I see this one as stonding out from the crowd and being Good, 0.8

Rating = 7.5/10 "Competitive" Others will score it differently; but I see this list as having a good potential regardless of environment or opponent; while it has a certain uniqueness and style of its own. Nicely done Kaminari, and I would love to see it in action.

CaHG
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:19:39 PM by moc065 »
Join POC: Saim-Hann
or Read the Guide to Eldar
or read the Guide to Necrons


And Click here if you like Magic The Gathering

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 09:09:36 AM »
@Moc: feel free to do so, as usual!  :)

@Cleansing Flame:
Against light vehicle spam it works wonderfully! The first vehicles are immobilized/destroyed via the distance weapons, so they won't hit you all at once. If moving carefully he will be able to only hit a few Wraithguard with his rending flamers causing a few losses. Then retaliate with Wraithcannon, Brightlances, Prisms, Close combats (the latter bypass Smokies fine).
After breaking the vehicle assault, fire with your Avengers, Serpents and Prisms at the Sisters with a good distance in between and charge the ones close to your Guard with the Harlies. You might want to swap the Serpent for the Harlies against Sisters as well for either tank or Sister hunting.

The Exorcist variants have a big red target cross on the Exorcists for sure. Keep in mind that fortuned Wraithlords in cover take a lot of punishment, while the Prisms can be put out of range, if you do not isolate the launcher tanks.

Offline sunnyside

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 05:16:29 PM »
Any chance we could persuade you to write up some battle reports?

For my 2 cents might I suggest fire dragons in a serpent?  Perhaps instead of the prisms, and maaaaaybe requiring one of the DA units to walk if you want to field a full squad and don't want to pull points from elsewhere. 

While surging dragons forward is a good way to get them killed,if what they do just before that is pop a land raider full of 400+ points of models that now have to march into wraithcannons I'd say it's a sacrifice that is well worth it.     And with good serpent placement you might even get them out alive (my dragons probably have the best stories of any of my units.  Surviving after being in the center of an enemies battle formation, looking guilty next to a flaming land raider.)

One other thing to consider is having a unit of tar pit DA screening the wraithguard.  The new rules where you can't use sweeping advance/massacre to contact new enemies makes screening a much more viable technique.   Actually if you don't mind risking the kill point a "speed bump" unit might be ideal in this role.   It seems 60 points of DA can really ruin some peoples plans. 

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 02:52:08 AM »
Unfortunately I did not take notes of the battles (did two full days playing game after game with that list), just remembered key situations and discussed alternate tactics with the opponents.

Fire Dragons in a Serpent are probably the weapon of choice against Land Raiders but that would weaken the overall concept. The Fire Prisms are there for ranged anti-tank and anti-horde and putting Dire Avengers on foot would make them the priority vulnerable target.
That certain units are there to sacrifice themselves for the Wraithguard is listed above. But their speed (or their transport's) allow them to charge the Guard nevertheless, and be it a multiple charge.

Points could be saved with a CC-only Wraithlord and reducing the Harlies a bit or by swapping one Dire Avenger team to a Jetbike unit that could be held in reserves... Have to think closer about that along with it's implications.

Offline sunnyside

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 03:26:07 AM »
Well if you don't want to swap them around I see your best option as using one of the DA units you have to screen the guard. 

Drop them off roughly right in front of the guard and between the body of their transport and the DA themselves hopefully you'll be able to screen the guard from charges.

unless there ar some special rules for it, they can't sweep into CC with the guards.  So after fighting the DA they'll either be stuck and looking at a countercharge or they'll be victorious and be looking at wraithcannoning and a counterchage. 

If you're really lucky the DA will regroup, but even if they don't hopefully that will turn the tide.

 

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 04:06:10 AM »
Unfortunately there are some problems with the suggested tactic:
As soon as you setup your Avengers in front of the Guard they are Prio Target No1. for any shooting attack, e.g. by the Landraider Crusader. So their numbers get diminished enough, that the opponent can circumvent them and charge the Guard. In worst case you just lost two scoring units, one of them important for your game strategy.

We even tried to setup certain situations aftergame, e.g. Defending Avengers getting into the way of Khorne Berserkers / Hammer Termies. They did not hold up a single round (be it just morale check failed). The Wraithguard fired at their target then and were diminished to neglectible numbers after the close combat they won... :(

The option to block the tank with the Serpents and exited Avengers to prevent exiting assault troops became too situational in the games. I am still working on solutions here.

Offline sunnyside

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 04:37:20 AM »
Unfortunately there are some problems with the suggested tactic:
As soon as you setup your Avengers in front of the Guard they are Prio Target No1. for any shooting attack, e.g. by the Landraider Crusader. So their numbers get diminished enough, that the opponent can circumvent them and charge the Guard. In worst case you just lost two scoring units, one of them important for your game strategy.

True enough, but they're only open to shooting for one turn, and you don't have any reason not to go to ground if they're going to get charged.  So go ahead and take the 6+ save.  Also I don't believe you have to stay in coherancy as you remove models.   So you can leave too long gaps so long as you don't leave enough room to run through.   

Granted there is a bad worse case.  But you have to evaluate how realistic a chance you have at victory if you've lost the wraithguard.   If you think you can pull it off well enough with a Harly and wraithlord counter charge than don't bother.

My understanding was that the counter was insufficiant after such a loss.

Quote
We even tried to setup certain situations aftergame, e.g. Defending Avengers getting into the way of Khorne Berserkers / Hammer Termies. They did not hold up a single round (be it just morale check failed). The Wraithguard fired at their target then and were diminished to neglectible numbers after the close combat they won... :( 

Ok losing in one round of combat is what they're supposed to do.  Wraithguard firing is all good.   But then the Harlies still bounced off of them?   Maybe what you need is more Harlies for a stronger counter. 

Or maybe the wraithguard just can't pull their weight...

Offline Starrakatt

  • Infinity Circuit
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2702
  • Country: ca
  • Bitter Vet
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2009, 09:09:26 AM »
I think there's no miracle tactic to prevent a LR/Trukk/Battelwagon/Raider charge - You need to stop the transport from moving, either by Stun, Immobilised, Wrecked or Exploded results, and for that you need to shoot the bastard from range or use Dragons...

With 2 Brightlance and the Prisms in the list I would expect you to have enough firepower to accomplish that much over two or three rounds of shooting though...

Another possibility would be to get Stormies with Fusion Guns and SpearLock (w/ Destructor) to replace some Avengers to get more AT, or drop one Avenger and the underslug Shurican to buy a pair of Fusion Pistols for the Harlies - There's nothing to stop them to take one of the Avenger unit's ride and get parked in face of the LR (or whatever transport), forcing the opponent to make hard choices (drive away or take some risks) - And then, the Harlies can try to Melta the tank and Rend it to destruction...

Did you try to threaten the transport's driving lane toward the WG with the Wraithlord? The bastard's parked in/behind cover, Fortuned and ready for any try to reach your line - If Fortuned, the WL shouldn't die to shooting and you WANT these Termies/Nobz to jump him, then you go zap-zap with the (Guided) Wraithcannons followed by a (Doomed) Assault with the Harlies...

Just trying to name some options here. What do you think? Tried some of these?

   Starky

Join the POC: Craftworld Iyanden - The Ghost Warriors

Quote from: Farceseer Siranaul
Yes you are being dense.

Offline Kaminari

  • Don't need Farseers
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
  • Scouting...
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2009, 01:39:07 PM »
I thought that the BL and Prisms should be sufficient, but they weren't.
BL: 1/3*1/2 + 1/6*1/6 = 1/6 + 1/36 = 7/36 = 19,4 % chance for an immobilized+ result on a Land Raider for each HIT of your weapon.
Twin linked Prism shot is 17% more efficient.

The fusion-guard replacement is one of the changes in my mind. The fusion pistols on harlies have only shown to be effective when they're mounted in transports.

I attempted each of your suggestions with no good result versus the lists I played against.  :(

I tried to do a Harlie Serpent parking in front of the Land Raider. It got downed each time, be it by melters of the supporting units in Rhinos nearby (the Raider never comes on its own), by the Multimelter/Ass-Cannon of the Raider or by Hammer Termies, each causing severe casualties on the Harlies within. Keep in mind that Harlies cannot harm a Raider anymore with rending, so the FPs are your only bet.

The Wraithlord was played in close proximity to the WG always being able to intercept the threat. Be sure to position the WG well enough to allow cover for the lord. But I think it was mainly due to my inability to make cover saves for him that he usually was shot to death till turn 3.  :D

Maybe some of my negative observations could be overcome with a little different playstyle or simply a little bit more luck on the dice?  ;D
I am trying to get a more distanced view on the games and think about possible or necessary changes required, if there any required at all. Because there are other things to consider as well, e.g. deviances to "normal" tourney builds in the opponent's list as well as my mates dice luck (that's why I like to play him - a real challenge). Have you ever seen a Khorne General with Demon Weapon not rolling a single 1 in his attacks over 3 games?

Nevertheless the key information is: you absolutely HAVE to stop those killer cc units before they get close to your Wraithguard.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 01:57:55 PM by Kaminari »

Offline moc065

  • Infinity Circuit / Necrontyr Lord / KoN Warlord
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8827
  • Country: ca
  • King of the Preemptive Strike
    • klucas.piczo.com
Re: 1750 Competetive Counterstrike Wraith Wars
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2009, 02:18:14 PM »
My rating is done above Kaminari, and I gave it a 7.5/10 "Competitive"... I know others will rate it defferntly, but I see this as a great list for all environments or opponents; but its still has little areas to improve on due to meta game, etc... I did find it unique in some ways and think that in the right hands it would have its own special style on the table.

Nicely Done BTW, and I would love to see it in action.

CaHG
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 02:21:47 PM by moc065 »
Join POC: Saim-Hann
or Read the Guide to Eldar
or read the Guide to Necrons


And Click here if you like Magic The Gathering

 


Powered by EzPortal