Topic: Warlocks in the new FAQ

[Fenris]

I've been thinking a bit about the new point costs for warlocks, which seems ridiculous, warlocks and even psykers are not that powerful and in the beta rules they get hit even more.

Then I started thinking what if GW meant warlock skyrunners....that would mean a warlock only pays 20 points for a bike, not 30 and a conclave warlock only pays 15 points for their bikes (massproduction making them cheaper  )
With the new farseer cost, they pay 20 points for their bike or did they mean farseer skyrunners? Nah, I think they did that right, just as the spiritseers points increase seems valid.

In addition I've read that the warlock cost is so we can't spam battalions, well we already pay at least double the price or each troop entry minimum comparred to Drukhari, so that's a NO, well how about the supreme command then, well with only 0-3 of every datasheet that's a big NO as well.

Would it be overpowerred to assume GW did a big miss and as a house rule say, GW meant warlock skyrunners & warlock skyrunner conclave?

That would mean 10p cheaper jetlocks and 15p cheaper conclave jetlocks, which I haven't seen anyone using, nor read about in any forum, since those units have been sitting on the shelf.

Minimum jetlock conclave would still cost 90p and loose character status.
Minimum battalion cost would be 240p comparred to Drukharis 190p and IG is probably even more extreme.

Another thing to notice is, if using the FAQ as RAW warlocks would only pay 10p for a bike, which would be a no-brainer, but for some reason conclave warlocks needs to pay 15p.

What are your thoughts?

[Blazinghand]

The FAQ is very clear. Warlock Skyrunner, Farseer Skyrunner, and Warlock Skyrunner Conclave did NOT get modifications to their point cost. The FAQ has a table that clearly specifies which units had a modification. Warlock Skyrunner is a separate datacard from Warlock, it's not a "wargear upgrade" or anything like that. There is no reason whatsoever, RAW *or* RAI, to believe that the price of the Warlock Skyrunner has changed.

As a result, the price difference between a Warlock Skyrunner and a Warlock is now much smaller. It's still a significant difference.

I will be taking a Warlock Skyrunner. An example detachment I am considering:

Battalion - 315 pts
HQ - Warlock Skyrunner with Witchblade
HQ - Spiritseer
TROOP - 5 Rangers
TROOP - 5 Rangers
TROOP - 5 Rangers

[Fenris]

Yes, it's clear, but for balance it does not make any sense at all.
Making the worst datasheet in the codex (warlock conclave) even worse is ridiculous.

I'm fairly sure someone made a brainfart, wether it was the idea of Asuryani HQ's were to cheap or if they somehow thought warlocks were too spammable, which I've both disproved.
Most likely I think it's a typo, which is not uncommon, and they will as usual rather throw balance out, than admitting it. (razorwing flocks & acolytes point cost are two obvious brainfarts like this.)

Most likely though someone got butthurt or listened to butthurt people complaining that psykers are too strong, because when they DO successfully cast their powers in combination with taking optimized units for the buffs, they do get strong, but that would be the same as pricing things for their potential alone rather than pricing things for they averages.

10 points (or 18% point increase)  for a bike is not significant enough to ever take a warlock on foot. You get 100% more speed, FLY, 300% more shooting, 33% more wounds and 33% more armour save.

Sure paying 30 points (86% point increase) as before was on the verge to ridiculous in the other direction.

Making it 20 points (57% increase) would be more balanced, while keeping the warlocks on foot as they are.

I will not be fielding any unnamed psykers if the FAQ stands, other than in games just for ridiculous kicks, but maybe it's just me getting too old for playing with actionfigures because even that does not sound appealing.

What I'm suggesting is:
Warlock skyrunner 55p
Warlock skyrunner conclave 45p

[Blazinghand]

Yes, it's clear, but for balance it does not make any sense at all.
Making the worst datasheet in the codex (warlock conclave) even worse is ridiculous.

I'm fairly sure someone made a brainfart, wether it was the idea of Asuryani HQ's were to cheap or if they somehow thought warlocks were too spammable, which I've both disproved.
Most likely I think it's a typo, which is not uncommon, and they will as usual rather throw balance out, than admitting it. (razorwing flocks & acolytes point cost are two obvious brainfarts like this.)

Most likely though someone got butthurt or listened to butthurt people complaining that psykers are too strong, because when they DO successfully cast their powers in combination with taking optimized units for the buffs, they do get strong, but that would be the same as pricing things for their potential alone rather than pricing things for they averages.

10 points (or 18% point increase)  for a bike is not significant enough to ever take a warlock on foot. You get 100% more speed, FLY, 300% more shooting, 33% more wounds and 33% more armour save.

Sure paying 30 points (86% point increase) as before was on the verge to ridiculous in the other direction.

Making it 20 points (57% increase) would be more balanced, while keeping the warlocks on foot as they are.

I will not be fielding any unnamed psykers if the FAQ stands, other than in games just for ridiculous kicks, but maybe it's just me getting too old for playing with actionfigures because even that does not sound appealing.

What I'm suggesting is:
Warlock skyrunner 55p
Warlock skyrunner conclave 45p

In 8e, Warlock jetbike armor save is not better than Warlock invuln save, so it's not useful.

There are some circumstances where the jetbike  armor save will matter, like if you get hit with a power that weakens or removes invuln saves, or if you benefit from cover (which is tough for a BIKER unit), but for the most part it doesn't matter.

Personally, I think I will no longer take Warlock on foot. I'll paint up my Spiritseer and take a Warlock on a Jetbike.

[Iluvhir Strafermeyer]

I dunno what to make of it. If warlocks were overpowered before, I suppose a point increase is warranted. Going from 35 to 55 is quite steep though. Are they really that good? I use them as buffbots and nothing else. With the skyrunners now only being 10p more expensive, of course they will be the new meta.

[Partninja]

The issue was spamming Spiritseers as a pretty cheap HQ and the ability to smite.

Warlocks have less wounds (can outright die from a peril) and had a worse smite. Hardly over powered but were a very cheap HQ to spam.

Really the issue was Spiritseer spam in my mind. I agree Warlocks should be an elite choice and reduced back to their original 8e codex cost.

[magenb]

The warlock buffs are not that great when looking at some of the other powers around the game. They don't get any bonuses to cast or anything to allow re-rolls, no protection from PoW, and can be nuked by a couple of snipers.

Spiritseers are basically the same but have a better stat line, the most useful thing is the extra wounds and access to full smite. CWE even at their old value could not spam smite anywhere near as badly as some other armies and with no bonus to casting, spamming smite just gets too hard for them to do. Spamming them for their base powers is also of limited use.


It seems to be more of a case of since everyone was crying about reaper spam, GW would have seen our seers buffing them and so they took some splash damage when the nerf bat hit.

[Alexxk]

The issue was spamming Spiritseers as a pretty cheap HQ and the ability to smite.

Warlocks have less wounds (can outright die from a peril) and had a worse smite. Hardly over powered but we're a very cheap HQ to spam.

Really the issue was Spiritseer spam in my mind. I agree Warlocks should be an elite choice and reduced back to their original 8e codex cost.

That would be awesome actually!

In regards of the battalion costs:
I am seriously thinking to play one battalion of dark eldar with my craftworld. for under 500 points I would get 2 raiders filled with 2 archons and 3 squads of 5 kabalites with a blaser each. for 500 I can take some upgrades on the raiders or even give the 2 archons bs 2+ blasers! So that would be 5 darklight weapons with d6 and 12 splinter shots. I get 5CP and access to the agents of vect stratagem. Most games I play are around 1500 points so I would have 1000 points of craftworld; enough for a shining spear deadstar (which I think is the strongest tactic for eldar now)

[Fenris]

@Blazinghand: You are correct about the bike save, my bad. My initial point about balance still stands.
I think the bike upgrade should be about 50% of the original model cost if it's a W2 model.
Farseers and Autarchs should pay more for a bike.
Shining spears and windriders should pay less than warlocks.
Here's a rough list, just on top of my head which is better balanced than GW's cost for jetbikes IMO:
Guardian to windrider +8p [+100%]
Shining Spear 15p [+100%]
Warlock +20p [+50% codex cost]
Autarch +25p [+33%]
Farseer +35p [+33% codex cost]
(these costs include the twin shuriken catapults)

@Every1:
I will likely field Eldrad and having no considerations about casting triple smite.

Points previously used on warlocks will be spent on another wave serpent since they can  get my banshees into CC more reliable than quicken and cause mortal wounds similar to destructor smite, they are much more durable and can take powerful weapons as a bonus.

I'll probably stick to the brigade rather than using double battalion @2K, which will make my 10 shurikenshot Autarch and Illic enough HQ's.
Hemlocks will be the source of jinx.

As for fixing the warlocks, well to make the price hike fair, they should go back
auto-success in casting their powers, including smite since most of their powers work as auras in other armies.