Topic: Carbines: How do they fit in?

[Athaga Mor]

I'm all about 'mobile' Tau lists.  I think I've made that pretty clear lately.  It was suggested to me that I take half carbines...okay, but I might as well equip them all with sticks unless I can figure out my movement.  And unless you plan on just sitting around with your pulse rifles... you need to be thinking about movement patterns as well.  Why?

Because with the craptastic CC abilities the Tau have you either need to fallback or circumvent the opposition in an effective matter.  Yeah, we can't really discuss this topic perfectly because of terrain and LoS issues.  BUT we can pretend we're on an open plain and figure out ideal distances, no?

Is there an ideal situation (distance) to get the opponent in and then specific movement patterns to follow?  (I'm thinking that this is a strong enough forum to discuss this/figure something out.)

EDIT: A word of caution:  This will likely hurt your head!  I find it interesting, personally, and I'm sure others do as well.  Just wanted to warn you though.

[Athaga Mor]

Okay, after orginally screwing up my calculations I decided to start real basic.

Here are some examples (12 FWs w/ 6 carbines) with the Tau getting the first turn.  "Stand and Shoot" tactics.  (We'll get to mobility in a moment.)

Deploy apart 24”
Tau: fire 6
Enemey advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 12”
Tau: fire/rapid fire 18
Enemy advance to 6”/charge
(36 total Tau shots)

Deploy apart 25”
Tau: fire 6
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 7”
Tau: fire/rapid fire/charge 18
(42 total Tau shots and charge)

Now, this is with 12 pulse rifles:

Deploy apart 24"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 18"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 12"
Tau: fire 24
Enemy advance to 6"/charge
(48 total Tau shots)

Deploy apart 25"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 19"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 13"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 1"
Tau: fire 24/charge
(60 total Tau shots and charge)

Okay, now here are the same examples but with the enemy getting the first turn.

6 carbines:

Deploy apart 24”
Enemey advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 12”
Tau: fire/rapid fire 18
Enemy advance to 6”/charge
(30 total Tau shots)

Deploy apart 25”
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 1”
Tau: fire/rapid fire/charge 18
(36 total Tau shots and charge)

Now, this is with 12 pulse rifles:

Deploy apart 24"
Enemy advance to 18"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 12"
Tau: fire 24
Enemy advance to 6"/charge
(36 total Tau shots)

Deploy apart 25"
Enemy advance to 19"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 13"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 1"
Tau: fire 24/charge
(48 total Tau shots and charge)

[Athaga Mor]

Here's more..

Now, with one 1” move to add 1” distance to the advancing enemy (basically, to see what advantage the carbine adds in the most minimal use): **Again without figuring losses**

Deploy apart 24”
Tau: fire 6
Enemy advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 12”
Tau: move 1” (13”) fire 6
Enemy advance to 7”
Tau: fire/rapid fire 18
Enemy advance 6”/charge
(42 total Tau shots)
*Note: You have 6 less shots in the grand scheme of things, but you have the ability to continuously fallback and shoot.  You need to fall back twice in order to break even with the all-pulse rifle squad, as you can see below, which means you need to have the above situation established by the beginning of turn 2.  This may or may not be difficult depending on table size, deployment, and deployment zone depth.  As we will see, 1" makes a difference and will cut your deployment zone depth to 11" - which makes making 2 or more 6" fallbacks a possibly problematic task.  However, because you need to have this established on turn 2 (not 1), a devilfish may be a simple answer to this enigma.  I will explore that more, after I run more numbers.

Now, this is with 12 pulse rifles:

Deploy apart 24"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 18"
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 12"
Tau: move 1” (13”) fire 0
Enemy advance to 7”
Tau: fire/rapid fire 24
Enemy advance to 6”/charge
(48 total Tau shots)
*Note: There is no gain or loss for the movement here, other than gaining time.

[lord dracus]

interesting calculations, they're very basic though, what if the enemy fails his pinning test versus the carabines. and what if you loose warriors to enemy fire. now, you can calculate what hapens when you move backwards with carabines

Deploy apart 24”
Tau: fire 6
Enemey advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12 (pinning test)
Enemy advance to 12”
Tau: moves/fire 6 (pinning test)
(repeat untill impossible to move further)
Tau: fires/ rapid fires 18 shots
Enemy advance to 6”/charge
(36+1 per " you are removed from the edge total Tau shots)

Deploy apart 25”
Tau: fire 6
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12
Enemy advance to 7”
Tau: moves/fire 6 (pinning test)
(repeat untill impossible to move further)
Tau: fires/ rapid fires 18 shots
Enemy advance to 1”/charge
(42+1 per " you are removed from the edge  total Tau shots)

[Athaga Mor]

So far I haven't seen an advantage to using carbines.  The pulse rifles allow you to impact the enemy's numbers sooner, and they tend to offer more shots... especially if you can outnumber the opponent in UNITS (thus, not have to move all of your units at any given turn).

Carbines would be best during a fallback situation (perhaps being chased by termies, a carnifex, or some other thing(s) you dare not get in HtH with).

In both cases, ultimately, you need to make a final stand against the opponent's rush.  I guess this depends on when you can make the final stand and kill the remaining portion of the persuing unit.  Your last volley (given the characteristic of rapid fire) is by far your best chance to inflict damage.  Wasting time being chased after isn't ideal... but neither is getting charged and into CC for failing to wipe out an enemy unit with the last volley.  I'm thinking that this is the line the Tau Firewarrior walks.

...more to come.

[Athaga Mor]

Righto, Dracus.  I'm starting basic and adding in detail as I move along.  If I toss it in all at the beginning... 1) It's pretty tough to pick out all the details and 2)I can't work on it in short windows of time (I'd have to sit down and really grind on it).

Pinning is a good detail to add in next.

[Athaga Mor]

Pinning:  I'm going to work with Leadership 6, 8, and 10 (You can average out the ones in between).  Obviously Fearless opponents don't have much to fear... heh.

Okay.  So...  If you have 'x' leadership value, odds say you'll make you're pinning check 'y'% of the time.  (I'm pretty sure I did the math right)

6     38.1% (8:21)   -should fail ~2 out of 3 tests
8     71.4% (15:21) -should fail ~1 out of 4 tests
10   90.5% (19:21) -should fail ~1 out of 10 tests

This doesn't change no matter how many times they take a pinning check (for each instance).  And, yes, the dice gods do weigh-in on this... and who knows what they're thinking!

Obviously you're going to have a tough time with Ld10.  Even Ld8 is tough, but on the lower LDs you've got a chance!  BTW, LD7 is 54.8%.... basically the middle of the range.  (LD7 is actually better than BS3 in terms of averageness... You can't have LD1, but you can have BS1...just thought I'd toss that in.)

Now, how does this relate to the other information?  Well... first, you don't get to pin without carbines!  Also...

If you:

Stand and Shoot (Tau first turn)
Deploy apart 24”, you get 2x6 carbine shots
Deploy apart 25”, you get 2x6 carbine shots

Stand and Shoot (Enemy first turn)
Deploy apart 24”, you get 2x6 carbine shots
Deploy apart 25”, you get 2x6 carbine shots

Move 1" (Tau first turn)
Deploy apart 24”, you get 3x6 carbine shots
Deploy apart 25”, you get 3x6 carbine shots

Move 1" (Enemy first turn)
Deploy apart 24”, you get 3x6 carbine shots
Deploy apart 25”, you get 3x6 carbine shots

This is interesting because when you look at LD6,7,8 those vollies can mean different things.  "Stand and shoot may be okay for LD6 and 7, but isn't so hot for 8+, whereas you gain an edge on LD8 by moving 1".  That seems insignificant right?  Not necessarily!  It really depends on how big the remaining unit is.  If you can dump 18 more shots into an enemy unit of 2-3... well I know I wouldn't be turning tail.

[Athaga Mor]

How effective is 6 carbine shots... I mean what's the likelihood of wounding something (to even get the chance to pin)?

Good question!

6 carbines should hit 3 times.  Against T4 you should (as the numbers go) wound 2 (against T3, you're answer lies between 2 and 3, but you can't "half wound" someone so I'll stick with 2 and you can keep the 2.5 in your head for multi-unit effectiveness).  Then with armor saves...

2+  17% chance of failing each save
3+  33% chance of failing each save
4+  50% chance of failing each save
5+  100% no save
6+  100% no save

...remember we're talking about ONLY the carbines here; you've likely got rifles in the group too.  Having rolled 2 wounds, I'd fight the odds and say you'd come out ahead on the 4+ armor save.  Why not the 3+?  Good question!  Think about what armies typically have a 3+ save and then think about what their LD value usually is (look above if you need to).

A good thing to keep in mind in the game of 40k (in my experience) is that the more time you need to roll the dice to achieve a goal - the LESS likely it's going to happen in the end.  Seldom do you have an easy dice roll that is almost a "sure thing."  I'll give an example:

Farseer tries to mindwar an LD10 Space Marine HQ.  You have to make a roll and then make another roll (which is as fickle as rolling for the first turn - law of averages makes this a 50-50 chance).  SO you have to make a roll to get a 50-50 chance... mean you are going aginst the odds.  More rolling = less chance.  (Note: mindwar is worth it because of the end result, any less and it wouldn't be used as often.)

So then why take carbines with all the dice rolling?  Afterall, pulse rifles have better range and you can stand and shoot more than with carbines...  well, there's multiple reasons for this...

[Athaga Mor]

There are multiple reasons for including carbines with you fire warriors.  And I’ll be the first to say that no matter the reasons, opinion will always play a role in them, because now we’re delving into the world of tactics, army composition, and fiction (fluff).  Someone will always be able to argue that they have a better tactic, their composition is better than another’s, or that the fluff says that something does or doesn’t fit.  Accept this and read everything with a grain of salt.

Tactics:  The “stand and shoot vs. mobile army” debate will go on forever.  It’s not ALL rhetorical garbage (some of it is, but not all) and it can be useful.  I began this thread comparing “Stand and Shoot” (SaS) results with “Move and Shoot” (MaS) results.  While the numbers were VERY basic, you can see some interesting differences.  You can see how to pump the most shots out of a fire warrior unit, but then later you can see the benefit of the carbine if you are being chased by something you wouldn’t want to get into close combat with, if your life depended on it (and it does in most cases for the Tau).

As with all the armies in 40k, success is often achieved by using units in coordinated efforts.  I played Eldar for five years and got REALLY good at it… so much so I got bored.   When you switch between armies, it’s not quite as simple as just switching the color of your army… each army is different.  Whether you are new to 40k or a vet that just switched to the Tau, you’ve got some learning to do.  Often the best way to learn is to experiment, and I’ve thought of an experiment while writing this (partially, because I need a break from the numbers) so I’m going to digress for a moment.

…

A Devilfish transport is common enough in any Tau army.  Sometime there is only one and other times there are several… if you’ve got pathfinders, you’re bound to have one!  One of the nice things about this transport is the wargear it comes with.  The drones can detach and move independently, and the transport can continue doing what it is meant to do.  This is AWESOME!  I repeat, “AWESOME!”

Those two little drones are handy in relation to your fire warriors.  How?  Well… let’s say you’ve got a squad (approx. cost of 120-150 pts); you have a squad of fire warriors staring you down at 18-24”, can get into CC with them in two turns, and could pulp them righteously at that point; and you’ve got a pair of gun drones floating off to your flank – which, if you don’t move, are conveniently in range.  Who are you going to shoot at and move towards?  Duh!  The fire warriors, otherwise you’ve going to get shredded with glowing blue, pulse fire.

A gun drone should hit 67% of the time and, with two, you should hit at least once.  Now with the strength of the Tau infantry guns, you have a good chance of wounding, and on a 4+,5+,6+ armor save you’re sitting pretty (both in terms of percentages and likelihood for a failed pin test).  I think you can see where I’m going.  Even if it doesn’t happen on the first try, the opponent is fighting the clock if he doesn’t deal with the drones.  If he stops the advancing squad, he’s going to get shot up.  Or maybe he’ll redirect fire from somewhere else… fine, let him shoot at the 2 drones with his 15-20 guns… that’s better than him shooting at more expensive units or larger units that could take more casualties.  In the meantime, you can finish off the advancing unit, clear the ground in front of you, and what did you lose?  Not your transport… that’s still floating around!  Two little drones!

And if your opponent doesn’t catch on to what you’re doing with the drones. SHOW HIM!  Talk it up!  The whole idea is for him to stop to shoot the drones.  Yeah, their a threat to the enemy – but more so tactically.  The real threat is the fire warrior squad that can knock off unit A and then immediately swing over to unit B with full attention.  Get him to shoot the drones – otherwise pin him to a crack in the ground.

Carbines have their uses for fire warriors… and sometimes the fire warriors don’t even have to hold them.

[Arguleon Veq]

An intereseting post, personnaly i would take the maximum carbines as i find firewarriors best mountd in devilfish and with all the dismounting the carbines actually improve the range of the unit and theres always the chance of a pinning test coming up good when you most need it.

[Athaga Mor]

Thanks, Veq.  That's a good point too.  Pulse rifles are severely hampered by getting in and out of vehicles... especially, if done repeatedly.

Okay, last post for today.

Time to tackle attrition a little bit.

Let’s take a 7 man space marine squad (bolters) vs. a 12 man fire warrior squad (points are close enough for comparison and both are common sizes).  We’ll see who does better.  I’m going to stick hard to averages, meaning I’m going to do “partial kills” and we can compare “whole kills later.”

-Tau going first - six carbines - "SaS" tactica:

Deploy apart 24”
Tau: fire 6 rifles, hit 3 times, wound twice, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 18”
Tau: fire 6 rifles and 6 carbines (double above), 1.33 kills
**pinning check**
Enemy advance to 12”, fire 5 bolters, 3.35 hits, 2.24 wounds, 1.12 kills
Tau: fire/rapid fire 12 rifle shots, 4.88 carbine shots, 1.88 kills
**pinning check** **morale check @ -1**
Enemy advance to 6”, fire 3.12 bolter, 2.09 hits, 1.4 wounds, .7 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 4.18 hits, 2.8 wounds, 1.4 kills
CC: Tau: (3 BtB,5.78 rocks) 4.39 hits, 1.45 wounds, .48 kills
**LD check for Tau**

Result:
Tau (8.78 in #) w/ 4.36 kills
Marines (2.64in #) w/ 3.22 kills


Deploy apart 25”
Tau: fire 6 rifles, hit 3 times, wound twice, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6 rifles, hit 3 times, wound twice, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 6 rifles and 6 carbines (double above), 1.33 kills
**pinning test** **morale test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 4.33 bolter, 2.9 hits, 1.9 wounds, .97 kills,
Tau: fire/rapid fire 12 rifle shots, 5 carbine shots, half hit, 5.7 wound, 1.88 kills
**pinning test** **morale test @ -1**
Enemy advance to 1”, fire 2.45 bolter, 1.64 hits, 1.1 wounds, .55 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 3.28 hits, 2.2 wounds, 1.1 kills
CC: Tau: (3 BtB,6.38 rocks) 4.69 hits, 1.55 wounds, .51 kills
**possible LD check for Tau**

Result:
Tau (9.38 in #) w/ 5.06 kills
Marines (1.94 in #) w/ 2.62 kills
***Note: It’s amazing the difference 1” makes isn’t it?

I'll be doing more calculations tomorrow, out of time for today.  I'm expecting these Tau kill numbers to be lower than pulse rifles numbers.  Then I'm expecting "if you move" numbers to be higher still.  Have to wait and see...

[Athaga Mor]

-Tau going first - zero carbines - "SaS" tactica:

Deploy apart 24”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
Enemy advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
**possible LD test**
Enemy advance to 12”, fire 4.34 bolters, 2.91 hits, 1.95 wounds, .97  kills
Tau: fire/rapid fire 22.06 shots, hit 11.03 times, wound 7.39, 2.44 kills
**morale check @ -1** **possible last man test**
Enemy advance to 6”, fire 1.9 bolter, 1.27 hits, .85 wounds, .43 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 2.55 hits, 1.71 wounds, .85 kills
CC: Tau: (1.9 BtB,8.19 rocks) 5.05 hits, 1.66 wounds, .55 kills
**possible LD check for Tau**

Result:
Tau (10.09 in #) w/ 5.65 kills
Marines (1.35 in #) w/ 1.91 kills
***Note: This is much better than w/ 6 carbines.


Deploy apart 25”Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
**possible LD test**
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
**LD test @ -1**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 3 bolter, 2 hits, 1.34 wounds, .67 kills,
Tau: fire/rapid fire 22.66 shots, hit 11.33 times, wound 7.59, 2.51 kills
**LD test @ -1** **likely last man test**
Enemy advance to 1”, fire .5 bolter, .34 hits, .22 wounds, .11 kills, charge
CC: Marines: .67 hits, .45 wounds, .22 kills
CC: Tau: (1 BtB,9.71 rocks) 5.36 hits, 1.77 wounds, .58 kills
**Marines wiped out**  **If marine survives, likely LD test @ -5 = 6:21 (29%)**

Result:
Tau (10.71 in #) w/ 7.08 kills
Marines (-.08 in #) w/ 1.29 kills **probably wiped out**
***Note: As expected.

[Athaga Mor]

-Marines going first - six carbines - "SaS" tactica:

Deploy apart 24”
Enemy advance to 18”
Tau: fire 6 rifles and 6 carbines, 6 hit, 4.02 wound, 1.33 kills
**possible pinning check**
Enemy advance to 12”, fire 5.67 bolters, 3.8 hits, 2.55 wounds, 1.27 kills
Tau: fire/rapid fire 16.73 shots, 8.37 hits, 5.61 wounds, 1.85 kills
**possible pinning check**
Enemy advance to 6”, fire 3.82 bolter, 2.56 hits, 1.71 wounds, .86 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 5.12 hits, 3.43 wounds, 1.71 kills
CC: Tau: (3 BtB,5.16 rocks) 4.08 hits, 1.35 wounds, .44 kills
**LD check for Tau**

Result:
Tau (8.16 in #) w/ 3.59 kills
Marines (3.41 in #) w/ 3.84 kills
***Note: By gaining the first turn, you will have ~1 less marine getting into CC with you.  This isn’t enormous, but considering I stopped the calculations before one squad ‘won’ the battle – it could relate to time, Tau LD tests, and possibly the remaining size of the squad after CC.  All of that can be enormous.


Deploy apart 25”
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6 rifles, hit 3 times, wound twice, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 6 rifles and 6 carbines, 1.33 kills
**possible pinning test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 5 bolter, 3.35 hits, 2.24 wounds, 1.12 kills,
Tau: fire/rapid fire 16.88 shots, 8.44 hit, 5.65 wound, 1.87 kills
**pinning test** **morale test**
Enemy advance to 1”, fire 3.13 bolter, 2.1 hits, 1.41 wounds, .70 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 4.19 hits, 2.81 wounds, 1.41 kills
CC: Tau: (3 BtB,5.77 rocks) 4.39 hits, 1.45 wounds, .48 kills
**LD check for Tau**

Result:
Tau (8.77 in #) w/ 4.35 kills
Marines (2.65 in #) w/ 3.23 kills
***Note: Again the difference is ~1 marine.  I also noticed that you’ve lost ~1 fire warrior more in both of these calculations, by not having the first turn.  So drawing on the range of these numbers, by deploying to gain one extra inch of distance and by having the first turn, you eliminate having to deal with ~1.2 less marines by the time they get near you and you save yourself ~1.22 fire warriors too.  That’s interesting!

[lord dracus]

wow, that are alot of figures. the comma's make it especially dificult to read it. but you have showen a point here, rifles are better than carabines. (when playing static)

[Athaga Mor]

Dracus, yeah, you're head starts to spin after a while.  I'm not sure what can be done about the complex appearance of the posts... hopefully those that want the info are willing to deal with it.

You're conclusion is the same as mine.  Here are the final calculations for "SaS" tactics.

-Marines going first - zero carbines - "SaS" tactica:

Deploy apart 24”
Enemy advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
Enemy advance to 12”, fire 5.67 bolters, 3.8 hits, 2.55 wounds, 1.27  kills
Tau: fire/rapid fire 21.46 shots, hit 10.73 times, wound 7.19, 2.37 kills
**possible LD test for marines @ -1**
Enemy advance to 6”, fire 3.3 bolter, 2.21 hits, 1.48 wounds, .74 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 4.42 hits, 2.96 wounds, 1.48 kills
CC: Tau: (3.3 BtB,5.21 rocks) 4.26 hits, 1.4 wounds, .46 kills
**possible LD check for Tau**

Result:
Tau (8.51 in #) w/ 4.16 kills
Marines (2.84 in #) w/ 3.49 kills
***Note: This is only marginally better than with the carbines in terms of attrition (.35 fire warriors), but it does make a .57 difference in the number of marines in CC.  However, compared to a Tau first turn battle this difference expands greater than when using carbines (1.58 more fire warriors living and 1.49 more marines dead – when you have the first turn as compared to 1.22 & 1.2 comparatively).


Deploy apart 25”
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12 rifles, hit 6 times, wound 4.02, 1.33 kills
**LD test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 4.33 bolters, 2.9 hits, 1.34 wounds, .67 kills,
Tau: fire/rapid fire 22.66 shots, hit 11.33 times, wound 7.59, 2.51 kills
**LD test @ -1**
Enemy advance to 1”, fire 1.82 bolters, 1.22 hits, .82 wounds, .41 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 2.43 hits, 1.63 wounds, .82 kills
CC: Tau: (1.82 BtB,7 rocks) 4.14 hits, 1.37 wounds, .45 kills


Result:
Tau (10.1 -.61 in #) w/ 5.62 kills
Marines (1.38 in #) w/ 1.9 kills +.61
***Note: With proper deployment (that extra 1”) and the a Tau first turn, things were looking pretty good for the Tau – not spending any/much time in CC.  But with a Marine first turn (even with the +1”) it’s not only likely 1 marine, but maybe even two, will make it to CC.  You also lose an average of .61 fire warriors by losing first turn.  …However, you are still better off than the best situation for a “SaS” 6xCarbine squad.  You should expect that though.  Carbines aren’t made for “SaS” tactica.


This should take care of “SaS” evaluation – at least for a while.  If you choose to do this – carbines shouldn’t be included in any quantity.

While the above doesn’t show the use of carbines as being very promising – aside from possible pinning test, which against marines you’ll find only an average of 1 in 10 resulting in something (if they aren’t fearless).

While unsure, I’m expecting carbines to shine when I calculate the 1” “MaS” numbers.  What will be interesting is if the “MaS” tactica w/ carbines out performs the “SaS” all-rifle numbers.

EDIT:  I had another thought.  While less effective, adding 6 carbines in a SaS squad is 'safer' in terms of tactics.  If you can get use to playing with the lower results, you can ignore the benefit of the first turn if it goes to the opponent.  Just a thought.

[Athaga Mor]

I had an exceptionally hard time doing these numbers, because I needed to figure out where the casualties came from in terms of which guns to take out with the Tau casualties, up to the rapid fire shooting.

What I determined was this:  taking the initial casualties in rifles or carbines made a 0.01 kill difference during the rapid fire shooting turn.  (Obviously, if the enemy has something other than bolters… this will change --> in this case take the casualties in the rifles).  However, taking the casualties following the fallback should be taken out of the carbines, so that you maximize rapid fire ability.  I’m not going to take the time to show this, but feel free to figure it out on your own.

For the purposes of these calculations I will be taking the initial casualties in the rifles and the later in the carbines.

-Tau first turn - 6 carbines - “MaS”-

Deploy apart 24”
Tau: fire 6, hit 3, wound 2, kill .67
Enemy advance to 18”
Tau: fire 12, hit 6, wound 4, kill 1.33
**possible pinning test**
Enemy advance to 12”, fire 5, hit 3.35, wound 2.24, kill 1.12 (rifles)
Tau: move 1” (13”) fire 6, hit 3, wound 2, kill .67
**possible pinning test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 4.33, hit 2.9, wound 1.94, kill .97 (carbine)
Tau: fire/rapid fire 14.79 shots, 7.39 hits, 4.95 wounds, 1.64 kills
**possible pinning test** **possible LD test @ -1**
Enemy advance 6”, fire 2.69 bolters, 1.8 hits, 1.21 wounds, .6 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 3.6 hits, 2.42 wounds, 1.21 kills
CC: Tau: 4.05 hits, 1.34 wounds, .44 kills

Result:
Tau (8.1 in #) w/ 4.31 kills
Marines (2.69 in #) w/ 3.9 kills
***Note: While this may look good at first, it’s really not.  If you finish out the battle in CC, someone is going break shortly (either the marines with a negative modifier or the Tau through lack of numbers and LD).  Even if you do come out of the battle alive, you’re numbers are seriously depleted and you won’t have much more than a single turn of shooting (still speaking generally).  You could fallback again and again (taking casualties from the rifles), but this will still take too much time.  And how much space are you going to have?  You’ve got a better chance of having more fire warriors left by the time the marines are gone, but it could take a potential 6 turns (averages) to kill them off… not taking into account LD tests and pinning tests.  In regard to the tests, I’m not confident enough to rely on the pinning test, but as long as the marines aren’t fearless you may have a chance there.

INTERESTINGLY, in terms of kills, you’re actually do BETTER with carbines doing “SaS” (at 24” deployment – haven’t checked 25” deployment yet) than you do with “MaS”!  WOW!  Somebody check my numbers… seems weird doesn’t it. 

The difference is really, really small for Tau killing marines (0.05) and in game terms it will probably be even results over time.  However, you lose an extra .68 fire warriors via “MaS” (24”), which can make a difference when CC starts.  This extra loss happens when you delay the rapid fire shooting phase, because the marines will outshoot the carbine fire warriors… initially… after about 2-3 turns (and a handful of dead rifle-toters) things start to change, but you also lose further fire warriors during this time and weaken to rapid fire phase (which deteriorates in effectiveness faster than the space marines’ shooting as they pursue your falling back). 

This is a major consideration for the “carbine vs. no-carbine debate.”

Give me a bit to work on the 25” numbers as see what happens.

[Athaga Mor]

Deploy apart 25”
Tau: fire 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12 shots, 6 hit, 4.02 wound, 1.33 kills
**possible pinning test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 4.34 bolters, 2.91 hits, 1.95 wounds, .97 kills (rifles)
Tau: fallback 6” (13”), fire 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, .67 kills
**possible pinning test** **possible LD test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 3.67 bolters, 2.45 hits, 1.65 wounds, .82 kills (carbines)
Tau: fire/rapid fire,15.24 shots, 7.62 hit, 5.11 wound, 1.69 kills
**possible pinning test** **LD test @ -1**
Enemy advance to 1”, fire 1.98 bolters, 1.33 hits, .89 wounds, .44 kills, charge
CC: Marines: 2.65 hits, 1.78 wounds, .89 kills
CC: Tau: 4.44 hits, 1.47 wounds, .49 kills
**possible Tau LD test**

Result:
Tau (8.88 in #) w/ 5.52 kills
Marines (1.48 in #) w/ 3.12 kills
***Note: Well, it wasn’t exactly what I expected, and it will only gets worse if the marines go first. 

My concern is that you eat up 5 full turns before you finish those calculations.  And it’s likely that you’re just walking a trapeze line before you take a LD test or the game ends.  The numbers don’t run in your favor for killing the 2 marines quickly.  He probably won’t be able to gain half victory points and you probably won’t be able to gain full victory points.

The rifles squad (SaS) takes 58.66 shots, and this carbine squad takes 45.24 shots.  Why the difference?  Because, you drain out your rapid fire shooting phase (22.66 shots becomes 15.24).  That later bites you when the surviving marines shoot and then charge.

In comparison to the SaS carbine squad, the MaS is trading 0.50 worth of dead fire warrior for 0.46 worth of dead marine.  Taking into account costs and stats, that’s probably an okay trade, but you also use up an extra turn.



Conclusion thus far:
--For shooting, pulse rifles and SaS tactics is the way to go.  Period.  They create a formidable infantry firing base for your Tau army.  Carbines should not be used at all in SaS tactic.

--For mobility, pulse rifles offer you nothing except an opportunity to be chased.  You gain nothing in shooting and have no ability to stop running, unless the assailants are cut off or cut down.  Here your only option is carbines… and they will cost you in terms of attrition as well as firepower.

The focus of this article/thread is going to now change back more toward what it was intended to be… a look into how to use carbines effectively.  We’ve eliminated the use of carbines for the SaS tactics and determined that even on the move they can’t compare with stationary rifles. 

What needs to be determined is the ROI (return on investment) for the extra price you pay for the carbines (not in points, but in firepower and effectiveness).  We need to understand the value of mobility over Tau firepower technology (this is going to be tough, given the level of technology), and we need to fine-tune that value tactically to take the best advantage of it.  This will be done abstractly and will be done with much opinion since the value is indefinable and numeric value doesn’t apply.

Again, let’s look at Veq’s mention of the use of carbines with the devilfish.  That might be a good start.

[Athaga Mor]

I had another idea.  It’s somewhat “un-Tau” but it’s interesting.

-Tau first turn, 6 carbines, “MaS”, Tau CHARGE!-

Deploy apart 25”
Tau: fire 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 19”
Tau: fire 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, .67 kills
Enemy advance to 13”
Tau: fire 12 shots, 6 hit, 4.02 wound, 1.33 kills
**possible pinning test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 4.33 bolters, 2.91 hits, 1.95 wounds, .97 kills (rifles)
Tau: fallback 6” (13”), fire 6 shots, 3 hit, 2 wound, .67 kills
**possible pinning test** **possible LD test**
Enemy advance to 7”, fire 3.67 bolters, 2.45 hits, 1.65 wounds, .82 kills (carbines)
Tau: advance 6” (1”),10.21 shots, 5.11 hit, 1.69 wound, .56 kills, charge
**possible pinning test** **LD test @ -1**
CC: Marines: 3.11 swings, 2.08 hits, 1.7 wounds, .7 kills
CC: Tau: 9.51 hits, 3.14 wounds, 1.04 kills
**possible Marine LD test @ -5**
CC: Marines: 2.0 hits, 1.34 wounds, .67 kills
CC: Tau: 4.42 hits, 1.46 wounds, .48 kills
**stalemate/maybe Tau LD test**
CC: Marines: 1.07 hits, .71 wounds, .36 kills
CC: Tau: 4.24 hits, 1.4 wounds, .46 kills
**stalemate/maybe Marine LD test**

Result after the first round of CC:
Tau (9.51 in #) w/ 4.93 kills
Marines (2.07 in #) w/ 2.49 kills

Result after the second round of CC:
Tau (8.84 in #) w/ 5.41 kills
Marines (1.59 in #) w/ 3.16 kills

Result after the third round of CC:
Tau (8.48 in #) w/ 5.87 kills
Marines (1.13 in #) w/ 3.52 kills

***Note: Against regular tact squad of marine (no vet or power weapons) the fire warriors might be able to hold their own.  I did the math for subsequent rounds of CC as well (shows all 6 turns).

Just something to look at.

[Legacyspy]

He he he, I did something similar to day. The Terrain was like this
F=FireWarrior Sqaud
H=Hammer Head
E=Devile Fish(withpathfinders)
P=Pathfinders

S=Tac Sqaud
D=Devestator Sqaud
Q=HQ(etheralfor me)


T=Tree                             Q
                            S S    DD    SS
                                   
                        TTTT                        TTTT
                        TTTT                        TTTT
                        EQF                          F  E
                            F           H             F

SO I start shooting his devestator Squad, while ge advances he Tac marines, and his devestator shoots my Hammerhead. So turn 2 comes around
Start of turn 2:
                                       Q
                                       DD   
                                   
                     E TTTT S S              SSTTTTE
                        TTTT                        TTTT
                           QF                         F
                            F                          F

During turn 2 all that happens is he advances, and I charge his tac sqauds. 6marins to a tac sqaud. 12 FW to a sqaud, btw my etheral was joined with 1 of my Fwsqauds
                                         Q
 Start of Turn3:                                         
                               E       PDDP      E
                        TTTT                       TTTT
                        TTTT SS               SSTTTT
                                QFF              FF   
                                                     
      I lose a Pathfinder sqaud, and a Fw squad he loses a 2 tactical sqauds, all of these to HtH combat
 Start of Turn4:                   Q                       
                               E           DP     E
                        TTTT          D           TTTT
                        TTTT QFF             SSTTTT
                                                     F   

End of Turn4:     
I lose my other pathfinde squad, but kill both his devestator sqauds with my Devile Fishes,I lose a FW sqaud, cause in runs of the table, and he loses his other 2 tac sqauds to FW shoots.   
                                     Q                       
                               E             E
                        TTTT                       TTTT
                        TTTT  QFF               TTTT
                                           
                                             so anyways POWER TO FIREWARRIOR HAND TO HAND COMBAT.         WOOOT

[Athaga Mor]

right on.  I wouldn't have suggested deploying your hammerhead like that - but that's another dicussion.

I think the marine was a bit unaware of Tau firepower and he made some misjudgements about distances, I think.

How were your firewarriors set up?  (weapons?)  Did shoot before charging?  rapid fire? pin anything?