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Author Topic: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host  (Read 4025 times)

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Offline volatilegaz

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List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« on: July 28, 2015, 03:50:05 PM »
Guardian Stormhost
Farseer (100)
8 x Guardian Storm -2 x flamers, 2 x power swords (72)
8 x Guardian Storm -2 x fusion, 2 x power swords (72)
8 x Guardian Storm -2 x fusion, 2 x power swords (72)
1 x Vyper –Scatter Laser (50)
1 x Shadow Weaver (30)
1 x War Walker -2 x scatter laser (60)
Avatar (195)
Wraith Host
Spirit Seer (70)
5 x Wraithguard (160)
5 x Wraithguard with Scythes (210)
5 x Wraithblades with Ghost Axe & Forcefield (150)
Wraithlord with 2 x EML (180)
Wraithknight with D-Cannons, 2 x Scatter Laser (325)
1,746pts

My main thinking for this list was to make the most of matchless agility, and to my mind, that means giving it to wraith units, along with battle focus.
I’ve had to really pare things down to the bone to squeeze the wraith host in, which has meant some sacrifices, particularly with my S6 shooting platforms. –Ideally I would want to beef both the Vyper & War Walkers up to at least 2 models each, but that’s 100 odd points that I just don’t have. Not ideal and will require careful management to avoid giving up first blood.
But the benefits outweigh the negatives, I think. -12” movement per turn on Wraithguard is just brilliant. –Over the course of a game it makes them more mobile than a Waveserpent would, since that would probably get shot down at some point, plus the smaller footprint of a 5-man squad vs a tank makes them easier to get into optimal position.
12” movement on the wraithlord and wraithblades makes them suddenly much more likely to get into assault in good order.  Add in the wraithsight re-rolls and the avatar combat buffs, and those wraith cc units, which were always pretty deadly, are now very deadly indeed.
The guardian storm units of course are also not to be sniffed at whilst buffed by the avatar, and would act as the all-rounder units for the list –supporting with anti tank / TEQ fire, crowd control, objective securing, and as very creditable 2nd wave assault units, there to ensure that the wraithblades and lord don’t get tarpitted.
With 3 monstrous creatures, 3 wraithguard units, and some easier but less threatening prey in the guardians, viper and walker, the list poses some difficult target priority questions for the opponent, and is fast and killy enough to pounce on any errors or poor dice rolls.
It has a good mix of weapon profiles to handle most unit types
Spirit Seer would go for Runes of Battle, in the hope of getting renewal to keep the MCs alive longer.
Farseer would go all-out for telepathy –Invisibility is always incredibly useful, but even more so when you’ve got guardians and an Avatar to protect, and Guide & Prescience are not much use in an army with so many re-rolls.
Spirit Seer and Farseer (warlord) would join the wraithblades by default, but I reserve the option of putting one with a Wraithguard unit, if I feel the need to spread my psykers around a bit more.
Shadow Weaver looks like a bit of a sore thumb as static as it is, but it's not just a tax. –It will act as a cheap distraction unit. –Positioned in the backfield as far away from objectives as possible, hoping to lure an expensive deepstriking / outflanking unit, thereby negating them for much of the game for the sake of a 30pt unit. If the enemy doesn’t take the bait, they have the range to add fire support throughout the game, so I don’t lose out.

« Last Edit: August 1, 2015, 02:32:36 PM by volatilegaz »
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Offline Fenris

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2015, 05:19:51 PM »
Nice, and good job cramming in both a stormhost and a wraithhost.
However the list has a few weaknesses, few models and no shooting is what first springs to mind.
I think this list will work very well against MEQ, and it has good odds of beating orks and nids.
However armies with shooty light infantry will be trouble, I'm talking Eldar, D.eldar, Tau, AM.
Flying things will also have a "walk in the park".

I think you should try to get as many EML's in your list as you can, also the shadow weaver has a scary chance of scattering onto your guardians, that' s why I think the vibro cannon if preferable if you can take 3.

If you stick the vyper into reserves and outflank the war walker, they won't be an easy first blood turn 1 at least, maybe even the artillery in reserve. Then again all three on the table could mess with opponents target priority, saving the Avatar an extra turn.

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Offline Ibushi

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2015, 05:48:02 PM »
Interesting concept, yes +1 to that, I would really like to see how it goes on the tabletop.

One issue is the lack of range, either in shooting OR in CC, as most units want to stay really bunched up to benefit from buffs and protection.

That means that even with great movement ability, the amount of the table you can threaten (especially in vanguard strike & hammer and anvil deployments) seems kind of limited to my mind. As an opposing general I would just squeeze around that threat radius and chip away with shooting until you charge and get some units out of position, or are soft enough to get assaulted yourself.

Building off what Fenris suggested, I'd be interested to see the wraith host matched up with a guardian defender warhost, to gain some EML shooting and larger threat radius. Besides, 10 guardian defenders charging en masse with avatar buffs is only slightly worse than storm guardians anyway, with the exception of power swords which might cause what, 2 wounds?

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Offline Lyonic

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2015, 10:11:11 PM »
Hey nice list. I went with the windrider tax as its less points that guaridan or storm hosts. That afforded me some much needed transports for the slow wraith units. Even with 12" movement, they gonna take 2 turns of fire before they can shoot and in my experience in fielding wraith units... They just don't live long enough.

D-Scythes are really hot. The issue you will have is again mobility.  No one will go near that unit. A 5 man wraithguard unit in a serpent move 6, disembark 6, battlefocus 6 and shoot 12. That's 6inch less than your wraithknights d-weapons. Its this reason i suggest you trim some fat of your list and squeeze in a serpent or 2 if you can. Things like scatters lasers on the knight are pretty useless as u can only fire 2 weapons.

In my uses of the wraith host, you gotta remebrr that your spiritseer is the most valuable model in your list. Never forget it. Get him in a serpent and that 18" bubble that lets...


wraithlord,
wraithknight,
wraithblades,
wtaithguard

all re-roll to hit. That is the strength of this formation believe me from experience using this.

what am i saying this is just a fun lost build deep.. I ramble on alot but i could ramble with people about eldar all day!

Cant believe how cheap that star cannon upgrade is for the viper. Noice!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 10:19:16 PM by Lyonic »

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2015, 04:58:59 AM »
Thanks for the comments, guys

I think you should try to get as many EML's in your list as you can

I'd be interested to see the wraith host matched up with a guardian defender warhost, to gain some EML shooting and larger threat radius.

I went with the windrider tax as its less points that guaridan or storm hosts.

Interesting... I went with stormhost initially because that seemed the best fit for making the most of matchless agility, but good points made. Defender host would require me to find another 48 pts, which would hurt. Jetbikes obviously makes zero use of matchless agility, but would give me more points to play with. I shall have a ponder on that.

As to other points made:

-Not massively worried about flying things in general, since despite no dedicated AA, almost every gun is twin-linked. A Couple of Hell Turkeys could ruin me, though.

-Shadow weaver is twin-linked and there's only two of them, so I don't think there's a massive risk of killing my own boys?

-yeah reserving the viper & war walker is the obvious solution to first blood issues, but I would miss their firepower in the first early turns and makes target choices easier for my opponent

-I don't think I will need to be quite as bunched up as you imagine -it's only the guardians that need to stay in the avatar bubble (and even then if they stumble across an objective in cover, they might decide to stat static). wraith blades, lord & knight would benefit from being in the avatar bubble, but only in turns when they are in assault and even then I certainly won't let that restrict my positioning to the point where I'd let myself be kited. More of an issue might be the wraithsight bubble around the spirit seer, but again it's not something I would let myself get kited for.

-At 1,750 I just don't have the points for serpents. Even if I did, they wouldn't fit the theme of maximising matchless agility. Even if that didn't bother me, I'm not sure they would be worth it. -It's 6" extra movement only for the turns when the serpent is able to move, and the wraithguard start the turn embarked. That's probably only 2 turns. For the cost of 3 serpents, I could get 2 extra units of wraithguard on foot.

-And being a Wraith player Lyonic, you will be very pleased to learn that gargantuan creatures like the  wraithknight can fire more than 2 weapons, and at different targets, too!
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2015, 09:46:19 AM »
Lol woot more than 2 weapons! *runs to read rule book* the thing about serpents is keeping the guard safe for that 1st turn of shooting. Wraithguard go down fast! Like there is so much Ap2 fire in this game. That's why i feel delivering your wraithguard is important. Remember battlefocus can be used defensivly aswelas i often do.

u were bot kidding about those heldrakes btw.. Or a tastey mawloc. The cool thing about say having a serpent for your wguard and spirit seer is you can always embark and move to the other side of the board if u need too. IM just really frightened that you are gonna start with 15 wg lined up and they r gonna get wiped off the table 1st, second turn.

Before i me meched up i used to use 1 wg in a unit with a farseer and they frequently  got taken off turn one.

The whole matchless agility this is very deceptive. You read it and think "hohoho in gonna be up that board in no time jumping around gunning down ppeeps" the reality is you are gonna need 2 full turns of moving and running before being able to shoot turn 3. If you have a serpent u can shoot turn 1. Just remember that there is only gonna be around 6 turns so losing 1/3 of those moving...

idk just try it out and see

Post Merge: July 29, 2015, 09:16:18 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Just noticed the avatar is not listed in the warhost. Damm shame that. Atleast you have some points to mech up now i guess
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 09:16:18 PM by Lyonic »

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2015, 08:18:11 AM »
Possible alternative list, using defenders instead of storms, and dropping the avatar in favour of some more gun platforms:

Guardian Battle Host

Farseer -singing spear (105)
10 x Defenders –EML (90)
10 x Defenders –EML (90)
10 x Defenders –EML (90)
2 x Vypers –Starcannon & Shuriken Cannon (110)
2 x Shadow Weaver (60)
2 x War Walker –Scatter Lasers (120)
Wraith Host
1 x Spirit Seer (70)
5 x Wraithguard (160)
5 x Wraithguard –D Scythes (210)
5 x Wraith Blades –Axe & Shield (150)
1 x Wraithlord -2 x Bright Lance & Ghost Glaive (165)
WraithKnight -2 X D-Cannons, Scatter Laser, Star Cannon (330)
1,750 Total

So I get a few more models and wounds, some AA fire and a fair amount of additional long-range shooting
I lose a CC-Monster,  the Avatar Buffs, a fair amount of melta, and 3 decent assault units

The defenders give me a bit more flexibility around splitting off to grab objectives, particularly in maelstrom missions, whilst still contributing with their EMLs. But I am losing a lot of my assault threat.
I’ll find it easier to pop transports with the EMLs plus the extra walker & viper, but I’m sacrificing a lot of my assault phase potential
Having something to threaten any hell-turkeys is a boon, but then again I’m down on my close combat effectiveness.
And of course if you’re not going to play an avatar in a warhost, when are you?

I toyed with a windrider host but decided it doesn’t fit with the matchless agility maximising theme I was going for, so I dropped it.

Thoughts? I can’t decide which is the most competitive, but I’m fairly sure I’d enjoy playing the Storm Host more. So that’s where I’m leaning.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 08:40:28 AM »
Either list is pretty efficient as you can get them. I think I would prefer the new Defender list simply because you're getting much more flexibility. While your CC is phase is worse, your shooting is leaps and bounds more flexible if not better. 10x shuriken catapults that can run and shoot in the same phase is nothing to scoff at. And you have 30 of them! The better shooting phase should make up for the lack of CC in most cases.

Offline Fenris

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2015, 12:25:57 PM »
I like the first list better, however here is a way you could get more EML's into it:
Drop 1 shadow weaver and the ghostglaive or the farseers spear, now you could get an EML for the vyper and 2 EML's for the wraithlord.
Sure you will lose 1 large blast, but using the EML's plasma missiles you can get 3 small ones instead.
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2015, 02:55:23 PM »
Vypers are too easily killed for an anti air platform. Better on your wraithknight imo

Offline Partninja

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2015, 06:37:40 PM »
Vypers are too easily killed for an anti air platform. Better on your wraithknight imo

Knight doesn't have EML as an option sadly. I would run Lances or EMLs myself if we could :)

Makes sense from a "balance" standpoint as that would quite a bit of split fire AT. The laser or cannon options are more AI or light armor roles.
« Last Edit: August 2, 2015, 06:21:19 PM by Partninja »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #11 on: August 1, 2015, 07:27:40 AM »
Sorry meant wraithlord*

Offline volatilegaz

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Re: List building comp -1,750 Storm Host with Wraith Host
« Reply #12 on: August 1, 2015, 02:34:22 PM »
I like the first list better, however here is a way you could get more EML's into it:
Drop 1 shadow weaver and the ghostglaive or the farseers spear, now you could get an EML for the vyper and 2 EML's for the wraithlord.
Sure you will lose 1 large blast, but using the EML's plasma missiles you can get 3 small ones instead.

Nice idea. Not quite enough points for EML on the Vyper too, but still worth it I think. Original list modified. I'm posting it.

Cheers for all the help, guys.
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