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Author Topic: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?  (Read 41822 times)

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Offline The Reborn

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #140 on: May 19, 2015, 06:15:55 AM »
If you need to keep your HQ choice cheap then fine, an Autarch is an ok investment....likew ise if you plan on taking an airforce or other units which will start in reserve.  Otherwise, a Farseer is a much better use of points.
Autarchs have got their uses apart from the reserve buff, but I'd advise popping them into a unit of aspects where they can add to the carnage.  As mentioned, Hawks or Spiders ideally.

Good luck with it. :)

Offline Wonko the Sane

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #141 on: May 21, 2015, 03:45:12 AM »
I played another game against daemons, in which my seer council took down some fiends, then bogged down a bloodthirster and  mess of hounds plus herald of khorne on a jug. One thing I noticed is that my farseers were systematically challenged out of the squad. I had a thought about deterring that after the game: an autarch with the Shard.

Just a jetbike and the shard (and mask if your opponent can shoot you) and you'll be set to make the opponent think twice about issuing a challenge.

Heralds of slaanesh can choose their challenge target (and that challenge can't be refused) though, so it's a lot of points in one basket that might not work out so well.

My worldview is definitely skewed from playing against one army regularly though. Against tau or AM or other shooty/non challenge heavy cc army (like nids maybe?) it would be pretty underwhelming, for an additional ~120 points.

Also in that game I used 4 Windrider squads. Two were 4 with lasers and two were just plain 3 man units. I feel the split worked out well. I got to rush objectives (playing Maelstrom) without sacrificing more expensive models. Previously I've used scatterbikes only. They do alright but the army has even fewer models than my old jetbike armies. Capturing objectives and sustaining board presence into the game becomes significantly more difficult.

So in other words, I think the scatterbike army of doom is significantly less frightening on the table than it is on paper.

This is, however, without any "tank" units (which seem to coincidentally also have D weapons in this codex). I think with tougher, higher-priority targets soaking enemy firepower they would get a lot more difficult to handle.

Finally, I don't know how you guys feel about the seer council formation, but it's almost mandatory if you want to have a dominant psychic phase against Chaos Daemons. To be fair, they're probably the most psychic-heavy codex out there, or tied for it with Eldar Craftworlds. I had 3x farseers and 5x warlocks on the roster and he still had more warp charges when the game started.

It's pretty near 500 points base (mounted, that is). That's really damn expensive. That said, when they hit their stride they will make back/tie up an equivalent point value pretty reliably.

One other note from my last game. I had a vyper with dual cannons on the field. He was one of my honorable mentions actually. He fired only once (guided plinking against a swooping Belakor to no effect), but captured 2 objectives in consecutive turns. Thinking about it, the vyper actually put the game out of reach for my opponent. I don't think there's room, role-wise, for more than 1 or maybe 2 though.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 04:03:37 AM by Wonko the Sane »
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #142 on: May 21, 2015, 12:21:30 PM »
Thanks for the intresting in put.  So if we want to play this codex Efficently if i understand what you are saying we must
1 keep some bikes stock and 3 man units for objective grabbing
2 Take some heavy unit of doom that will draw fire power away from the bikes
3 Seer council on bikes are realiable and can be played to great effect.
4 Vyper seems under whelming when play double shurican and alone. You concider you should not take more as you don't hink they will make an impact, (that i won't agree but that's not the point here).
5 Shooty heavy army might be the hardest to handle with a full bike list.
6 CC heavy army are manajable as long as we keep it away from us.

Do you have something else in mind?
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Offline Wonko the Sane

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #143 on: May 21, 2015, 08:18:15 PM »
Thanks for the intresting in put.  So if we want to play this codex Efficently if i understand what you are saying we must
1 keep some bikes stock and 3 man units for objective grabbing
2 Take some heavy unit of doom that will draw fire power away from the bikes
3 Seer council on bikes are realiable and can be played to great effect.
4 Vyper seems under whelming when play double shurican and alone. You concider you should not take more as you don't hink they will make an impact, (that i won't agree but that's not the point here).
5 Shooty heavy army might be the hardest to handle with a full bike list.
6 CC heavy army are manajable as long as we keep it away from us.

Do you have something else in mind?

1. Yeah I had 2 such units in 1500. One got shrieked off the board immediately, but the other secured me an objective so I was thankful for the redundancy.

2. I had no such unit unless you count the seer council. Which could definitely qualify. But if you have absolutely nothing to threaten the opponent besides bikes, they'll evaporate pretty quickly.

3. Yep, as always. It's a huge points investment though. Basically requires 3 farseers so you are "certain" to have fortune.

4. I actually meant the opposite. It didn't kill anything, but it scored two VPs for me, which may be the most by a single unit in that game. I was saying that it won't win battles by itself, but when you're not relying on it to kill enemies, it can quietly secure you the win.

5 & 6. When I talked about the AM/Tau/Nids, I was just considering the addition of the challenger autarch to the seer council. He's useful against daemons, but wouldn't be against any army that doesn't have high powered CC characters who will try to pick the farseers in the council off. My win record against the daemons is actually like 1-4 or something. It's my first time playing the codex (summoning is way better at 500 points), so there's a learning curve.

I think jetbike-heavy lists will falter against anything capable of engaging them effectively. Whether that be  a long range AM list or a super fast DE or Daemon list. Taking down 3-5 guardsmen per turn is almost nothing, but taking down 3-5 jetbikes is a significant blow.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #144 on: May 22, 2015, 12:38:12 AM »
Thanks for the intresting in put.  So if we want to play this codex Efficently if i understand what you are saying we must
1 keep some bikes stock and 3 man units for objective grabbing
2 Take some heavy unit of doom that will draw fire power away from the bikes
3 Seer council on bikes are realiable and can be played to great effect.
4 Vyper seems under whelming when play double shurican and alone. You concider you should not take more as you don't hink they will make an impact, (that i won't agree but that's not the point here).
5 Shooty heavy army might be the hardest to handle with a full bike list.
6 CC heavy army are manajable as long as we keep it away from us.

Do you have something else in mind?

I wouldn't say we really "have" to do anything to be effective with this book.  Even our worst units are playable with the current rules.  Most of our units got better without a price increase or otherwise improved in some way.  I threw together a list made up of what I happened to own and played two games against two seperate ork players' tournament lists, and I won both pretty handily. We have the freedom to play with pretty much any toys we want without being punished for it these days.  Personally, I'd like to see scatter bikes and knights toned down, but then I'd like to see all the other armies out there brought in line with our aspect warriors.  Powerful and flavorful, but not ridiculously powerful.

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #145 on: May 22, 2015, 03:11:55 AM »
Huum i was never intending a must do rules, i was just trying to see if we could figure out some guide line for newer palyer to create efficiently create list. I was thinking about doing a thread for this. :D
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Offline murgel

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #146 on: May 23, 2015, 03:29:15 AM »
The core question to such a list of basic approaches always has to be the meta one plays in.
I do often see lists which are considered "great" etc. that will result in a raised eyebrow around me. Mostly that goes for top tier tournament lists but various others as well.
Your group's the mental approach to the game...
sure you have an opinion,
but my swordplay is better than your´s

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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #147 on: May 23, 2015, 11:54:10 AM »
Well that's true meta make everything in the end. That's something i tend to forget.
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Offline Ibushi

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2015, 05:04:41 PM »
Great feedback from you guys so far, I'm enjoying getting a sense of the new codex (no games with it yet :( )

Agreed that scatbikes on their own dont seem that menacing, the olden goldie 3 EJB squad is a must as before.

One thing I noticed is that I don't Eldar can take power spears, the codex only lists swords, mauls, axes, and lances. If you mean lance, I don't think there is a restriction on being mounted to take one, strangely, and it's pretty nice.

Anyway, looking forward to getting some games in.

Winners from my POV this codex:
1. Dark Reapers
2. Hemlock
3. Swooping Hawks
4. Warp Spiders maybe
Honourable Mention: Banshees

The tournament I'm practicing for doesn't allow WKs, so I haven't had to think about him yet.

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #149 on: May 24, 2015, 06:11:00 PM »
Don't allow Wraithknights, Super Heavies / Gargantuan Creatures, or Lords or War?  Because flat out banning a single unit from a single codex is just flat out wrong IMHO.
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Offline Nythrulas

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #150 on: May 25, 2015, 03:11:42 AM »
I agree with GML.  All superheavies or none.  You can't just ban a single unit.  Especially before they've had a chance to see what they can do.

Offline shabbadoo

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #151 on: May 25, 2015, 03:59:36 AM »
Very correct, and tournaments are the PERFECT place to see what Wraithknights can do, because many (not all) people who play in tournaments purposely field armies that are broken all to hell.  If I were an organizer, I'd be looking forward to seeing the results of the Wraithknight's "first round" in the tournament scene.  I'd also be collecting feedback from those using them as well as from those playing against them.

But, perhaps I am being too reasonable? :p

Offline murgel

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #152 on: May 25, 2015, 06:15:14 AM »
I agree with GML.  All superheavies or none.  You can't just ban a single unit.  Especially before they've had a chance to see what they can do.

Ironically the banning of superheavies will result in the Wraithscythes being an acceptable unit again as well. Since the primary complain about them seems to be their ability to kill SH vehicles with their weapon. the regular infantry killing power has not really change too much and neither has the tank killing ability.
sure you have an opinion,
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Offline shabbadoo

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #153 on: May 25, 2015, 08:28:43 PM »
The tank killing ability of D-scythes had changed dramatically. Previously, D-scythe caused damage. Now, on a roll, the D-scythe automatically does moar damage.  If you think that equates to "not really changed much", you are delusional.  It remains an auto-hit weapon, such that the whole "roll to hit" aspect of lowering the odds of it being effective is removed from the equation. The D-scythe is arguably the foulest weapon currently in the game, and you don't even have to buy some expensive Apocalypse Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature type unit to gain access to it.  I have two fully magnetized units of Wraithguard/Wraithblades, but I don't think I'll even field more than one unit of them with D-scythes unless going up against a total cheese-beard tool of an opponent.

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« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 08:45:12 PM by The GrimSqueaker »

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #154 on: May 25, 2015, 11:54:37 PM »
The tank killing ability of D-scythes had changed dramatically. Previously, D-scythe caused damage. Now, on a roll, the D-scythe automatically does moar damage.  If you think that equates to "not really changed much", you are delusional.  It remains an auto-hit weapon, such that the whole "roll to hit" aspect of lowering the odds of it being effective is removed from the equation. The D-scythe is arguably the foulest weapon currently in the game, and you don't even have to buy some expensive Apocalypse Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature type unit to gain access to it.  I have two fully magnetized units of Wraithguard/Wraithblades, but I don't think I'll even field more than one unit of them with D-scythes unless going up against a total cheese-beard tool of an opponent.

Please don't list rules or stats where it's unnecessary. They have the codex, they know the rules themselves. - Rummy.

The argument for them having not having changed much is that, previously, a squad of wraith guard could shoot at a given target and it would probably die.  Now, you can shoot them at a given target, anv it will still probably die.  Similarly, when people complain about fire dragons getting another anti-tank buff, I like to point out that a squad of fire dragons has been sufficient to kill any vehicle up to a land raider for a while now.  Overkill doesn't really help in most situations.  The main difference is that the d-scythe can pull double duty as anti-tank and anti-everything else now.

I agree though. d-scythes are extremely nasty, and I advise people to think carefully before including them in an army.  That said, wraith guard have always been a unit that will wreck house if left unchecked, and their weaknesses haven't really changed much between books.  You still want to either kill them at a range with high strength, low-ap weapons (preferably blast weapons), and failing that, you can still win against them in melee with most units.  And yes, having a "throw away" unit handy to eat the overwatch is still a good idea. 

They do more damage than they used to when in their element (an unnecessary buff), but power fist sergeants, MCs (after having something else eat overwatch), anything with poison, and many varieties of hordes still counter them nicely. 

Offline murgel

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #155 on: May 26, 2015, 09:51:30 AM »
The tank killing ability of D-scythes had changed dramatically. Previously, D-scythe caused damage. Now, on a roll, the D-scythe automatically does moar damage.  If you think that equates to "not really changed much", you are delusional.  It remains an auto-hit weapon, such that the whole "roll to hit" aspect of lowering the odds of it being effective is removed from the equation. The D-scythe is arguably the foulest weapon currently in the game, and you don't even have to buy some expensive Apocalypse Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature type unit to gain access to it.  I have two fully magnetized units of Wraithguard/Wraithblades, but I don't think I'll even field more than one unit of them with D-scythes unless going up against a total cheese-beard tool of an opponent.

Please don't list rules or stats where it's unnecessary. They have the codex, they know the rules themselves. - Rummy.

The argument for them having not having changed much is that, previously, a squad of wraith guard could shoot at a given target and it would probably die.  Now, you can shoot them at a given target, anv it will still probably die.  Similarly, when people complain about fire dragons getting another anti-tank buff, I like to point out that a squad of fire dragons has been sufficient to kill any vehicle up to a land raider for a while now.  Overkill doesn't really help in most situations.  The main difference is that the d-scythe can pull double duty as anti-tank and anti-everything else now.

I agree though. d-scythes are extremely nasty, and I advise people to think carefully before including them in an army.  That said, wraith guard have always been a unit that will wreck house if left unchecked, and their weaknesses haven't really changed much between books.  You still want to either kill them at a range with high strength, low-ap weapons (preferably blast weapons), and failing that, you can still win against them in melee with most units.  And yes, having a "throw away" unit handy to eat the overwatch is still a good idea. 

They do more damage than they used to when in their element (an unnecessary buff), but power fist sergeants, MCs (after having something else eat overwatch), anything with poison, and many varieties of hordes still counter them nicely.

This. ^^
I don't understand some people, honestly. Dead is dead.
"Oh, I made 15 HP damage. Your LR is dead" compared to "Oh, I made 5 HP damage. Your LR is dead"
That is a significant change and a dramatic increase in damage output. Still the result is the same, a dead LR. So effectively there is no/little difference. The only logical conclusion can be that the change is minor in effect.

Personally I do not use Wraithscythes or at least very, very scarcely. Why? I don't like their feel.
I use Wraithguard if it has to be high T. I use Dragons, they are the Eldar answer to the AT question.

Necron decurion being the exception, there is no style or quarter against nec-dec. (no player around here)

sure you have an opinion,
but my swordplay is better than your´s

Take my advice, I never use it.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #156 on: May 26, 2015, 10:12:22 AM »
The higher a unit's damage output, the longer it remains "highly effective" after taking casualties. For example, if a unit had +1 on the Damage Table, above and beyond it's normal benefits for an AP 1 weapon, the odds of getting an explosion increase significantly with multiple penetrations.

With two penetrations using a Meltagun, for example, the odds of causing an "Explodes" result is normally 55%. Three penetrations would have a 70% chance to cause an explosion.

If you get a +1 bonus to the damage table, the odds of causing an Explodes result with 2 Pens goes to 75%. With Three pens, that goes to 88%.

So a Melta Squad that has 6 guys would get 4 hits on average, of which 2 would usually penetrate, if you're targeting a Land Raider. In that case, you're going from a "coin-toss" to "reliable" destruction, thanks to a bonus on the damage table. That's tactically significant, as you could be reasonably certain that a single unit of Melta-users could take out a tough target without help. Instead of committing two units to killing a LR, you should only need one, most of the time.

I mean, D-Scythes are still going to rock the socks off of anything, but Eldar Melta-Users are still quite potent in the role of Vehicle Wreckers, and quite a bit cheaper.

The significant effect is that they're much more reliable in their role, than if they didn't have a bonus.

Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #157 on: May 26, 2015, 01:18:33 PM »
i wish they had given wave serpents that were part of a guardian host preferred enemy.

Offline murgel

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #158 on: May 26, 2015, 01:26:02 PM »
Why should they? What are the reasons you think they should have it?

I don't like the idea, sorry.
It just feels to me like the "Serpents in a Aspect host also have +1BS..."
(honestly? Those things are operated by guardians not by aspect warriors.)
I know it is discussed and I can understand the wish for powerful units but we already have a very good and internally very well balanced codex.
sure you have an opinion,
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Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: New Codex: Happy/Sad Face?
« Reply #159 on: May 26, 2015, 02:32:01 PM »
Why would vypers and warwalkers get it but not wave serpents? They're all guardian pilots. The wave serpents getting the aspect warrior buff in the aspect warrior formation doesn't have nearly as much merit.

 


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