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Offline Natinator

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Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« on: August 1, 2011, 08:40:30 AM »
I play Eldar, and I have a mate who has started playing marines. He has only literally just started, we have had one sort of muck around game showing him some of the rules, etc. I have the marine codex as well, so I have helped him a little. But he doesn't like listening to me   >:( so I need you guys to point out what needs help and he should listen. I told him I would post it on here to get some thoughts. Anyway here-goes:

1500pts all-comers vanilla marines

Chapter master               
- Lighting Claw               
- Storm Shield                              Total 175 points
- Artificer Armour           
- Melta Bomb                 

Librarian                       
- Terminator Armour                         Total 150 points
- Storm Shield               

Assult Terminators         
- 2 with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields  Total 200 points
- 3 with Lightning Claws

Tactical Sqaud 1           
- 5 Extra marines           
- Missle Luncher 
- Flamer                                    Total 195 points
Sergent
- Power Fist                 


Tactical Sqaud 2           
- 5 Extra marines           
- Missle Luncher 
- Flamer                                    Total 195 points
Sergent
- Power Fist                 

Devastator Squad         
- 2 x Lascannon           
- Plasma cannon                             Total 200 points
- Missile Luncher         

Dreadnought                                 Total 115 points
- Assult cannon           

Land Raider                                 Total 250 pooints


Total 1480 points

He has 20pts left over... so there is room for something little to fit in. He had done some maths wrong, and has gone to bed now... so i just fixed it up, so he has more points leftover than he thought. But he wont find out until tomorrow. Anyway, I fear it isn't tactically too sound. It is reasonably flexible, with a mix of AT and some hard hitting units (namely termie Deathstar - Im assuming the CM goes with them, but he was going to run him around on his own, which i point blank told him was stupid.) It lacks in the maneuverability department, however he will combat squad the tacs, so one gets the rocket, the other gets the flamer. Without transports everything apart from the termies will be footslogging (unless he puts a tac squad in the LR and deepstrikes the termies - highly doubtful). The dread will have a hard time contributing with a short range weapon, and having to make its own way across the field. He also has a large amount of points tied up in the HQ... spending ALOT of points on a librarian that can only use one power a turn... Not really sure what he plans to do with this, maybe put him in the deathstar - becomes an uber seer council killy unit then, which isnt nice for me  :P ).

He has most of the units, just needs the Librarian i think. He is open to buying new units though. As he is new, his general tactic is just slowly wade across the field, keeping to cover as much as possible. The game we played was Kill Points, and he kept everything back, so I had to run forward and attack him... while his Landraider made a mess of my mech advance. He seems to not want to send the LR forwards, so...

Anyway, any and all help is required. And as it is not my list, feel free to be as mean as you want  ;)
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Offline ak-73

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #1 on: August 1, 2011, 10:01:18 AM »
You already broke it all down nicely. Lack of transports is the biggest mess-up probably.

Alex

Offline darkstar12984

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #2 on: August 1, 2011, 10:52:43 AM »
yeah just add a couple of razorbacks, use some good tactics and it wouldn't be the worst vannila list i've read.

What powers has his librarian got?

Offline Styranimon

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #3 on: August 1, 2011, 01:24:12 PM »
I think his Devastators are far too expensive.
I would replace the Lascannons with another Plasma Cannon and a Missile Launcher, and for that points he can make room for two more marines.

I would remove the Chapter Master entirely, I can't see what he's doing in this list.

For these 175 points, he can get two Rhinos/Razorbacks to his Troops, and maybe a cheap Scout Squad for more Troops.

Alternatively, he can remove the Devastators too, for more Troops choices. :)

Hope this may help!

/Simon
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Offline Malfush

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #4 on: August 1, 2011, 01:43:46 PM »
Lascannon Devastators perform very well, IF you're a Dice God. I've had games where they've done absolutely NOTHING, and then other games where they explode a Land Raider in the first turn, then proceeds to annihilate every piece of armor on the board. They're expensive, yes, and they die like regular marines. I find them nice in Apocalypse, but anything lower than that, I don't field them anymore. I like quad heavy bolter squads though.

Offline Natinator

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #5 on: August 1, 2011, 06:55:46 PM »
ok cool thanks guys. ill let him know that Im right  8) haha.

@Darkstar, Im not sure of the powers his librarian has... Im scared he may take null-zone, which will screw over my seer council haha... but he will be using it to probably go with his termies, so assault oriented powers are more assured.

Concerning the Lascannons - in the one muck up game we played, his lascannons reliably penetrated my falcons, stopping them from shooting half the time. And his Landraider made a mess of my vehicles too. AND he shot down my Wraithlord before it could do much...  >:( so he is kinda in love with them now. However we didnt use too much cover, so on a board with alot of cover...

He had a captain instead of the chapter master, but for 25pts difference or whatever, he wanted the Orbital Bombardment... And he expects it to be a beast, as I mentioned before he was going to run him solo...

He i afraid he want have enough AT without the devastators I think, so im not sure on his ideas about that... and he doesn't understand the value of adding more marines to a dev squad than what can hold big guns, although Ive tried to explain it to him.

Just another question that he wont take my word for... If your using the vanilla marines codex, can you take the Emperor's Champion in your list from the BT Codex? I said no... but he wont listen.
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Offline darkstar12984

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #6 on: August 1, 2011, 07:13:00 PM »
i was gonna say to make sure he took null zone if he's dropping the libby with the termis but fare enough.

I would also have suggested he kept the landraider for 2000pts games as i find they never make their points back in 1500 (also personnally prefer more bodies in a 1500pts game)

Offline Natinator

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #7 on: August 1, 2011, 08:10:15 PM »
Yea the LR is alot of points, but in our practice game it reliably kept two 180pt each Falcons essentially out of the game. With the heavy AV, it barely got scratched, and the machine spirit kept it firing... then the twinlinked weapons at BS4 meant he almost always hit  :( so I think he likes it quite a bit
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Offline Malfush

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #8 on: August 1, 2011, 08:35:54 PM »
If your using the vanilla marines codex, can you take the Emperor's Champion in your list from the BT Codex? I said no... but he wont listen.


That's a big no-no unless it's Apocalypse. There's no more inter-codex mingling.

Offline JusticeCetin

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #9 on: August 1, 2011, 09:04:28 PM »
Yeah GWs site says that any chapter can use him, but they lie! (the emperor's Champion of course)

I have a friend who plays Vanilla, and his army effectiveness skyrocketed when he brought a pair of AC/LC preds.  You could easily fit these in by dropping those devs and the chapter master (that is 375 points) and get 2 preds for only 240!  That gives you more AT than the Devastator squad, and helps get more armor on the field, and the extra points buy Razorbacks or Rhinos, and really allow you to saturate the field with armor.
And that will still satisfy his love of LC's, and not reduce his AT without the Dev Squad.

With the Land raider, 2 Preds, the dreadnought, and 2 razor/rhinos, the enemies AT will have hard targets to choose. 
Another thing, i find that with a standard LR, you often drive right into melta range to deliver your guys, and as such, i prefer the redeemer variant (wish BT had it)  But that is my personal opinion.  the TL AC can actually outperform the TLLCs on the standard LR against AV10/11 armies.  But from what i've seen, Predators and Dakka Dreads are really good.  He may consider switching the DCCW for an autocannon, because dreads are actually not great in assault, yeah they can't die, but id rather shoot 6 shots a turn than 2-3 attacks in CC. 

Hopefully you take my advice to heart :)
If he is heartset on keeping the CM, you can just drop the Libby instead, and you should be able to work points to make the above changes fit. 
« Last Edit: August 1, 2011, 09:06:54 PM by JusticeCetin »
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Offline Azash76

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #10 on: August 1, 2011, 09:28:22 PM »
Replace your chapter master with Pedro Kantor. He is the same amount of point gives up a little bit of protection via the storm shield but has a little more offensive punch in the form of a powerfist  and the second best storm bolter in the codex (Calgar's AP2 is just awsome).

That will give your terminators Automatic stubborn very useful since your not fielding a chaplain. It will also give them +1 attack if they are within 12" of Pedro.

With a little rearranging on your Dread, Tactical Squads Devastator squad, and land raider, you can economize your army put more fire power in it and save yourself about 30 pts. The way you've got it listed your pulling 4 lascannons, 1 plasma cannon, 3 missile launchers, an assault cannon, and a heavy bolter that's running you 955 pts.

Put your lascannons in your tactical squads they only cost 10 pts each there.
Lose the assault cannon on the terminator and take a plasma cannon. No get's hot roll (hurray) pts wise it's a wash
Devastators are all Missile Launchers
Land Raider - Redeemer w/ Multi-Melta

That gives you 2 Lascannons, 1 plasma cannon, 4 missile launchers, 1 twin linked assault cannon, 2, flame storm cannons, and a Multi-Melta. for 915 pts. You just saved 40 pts. Not to mention you just gave your terminators the ability to assault into cover without going initiative 1 always a bonus.

Now it gets a little tricky here. If you have pedro and believe me he adds so much more to your list if he is in the Raider with your termies you can no longer carry your librarian with the termies. So if you are dead set on keeping him I would lose the Terminator armor and that brings you up to 75 pts left to play with. Enough for two rhinos or extra armor on the raider etc.

However if you go the Rhino route which I would be tempted to do myself you can't haul your Librarian with them cause they would be maxed. So your better off giving your librarian a 5+ invuln power and a nice find something else that kills monsterous creatures up close or fends them off and stick him with your devastators as a defense.

The other route you could go is go 2 rhinos and lose the librarian altogether for a Chaplain cause then your terminators are just flat out murderous sob's! Only draw back here is that is allot of points in one spot especially in a 1500 pt game. Whichever option really depends on your play style.

Offline ak-73

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #11 on: August 2, 2011, 03:42:59 AM »
Take the LR Crusader (with multi-melta (and a HK missile if you want to but it's not necessary)) instead. More carrying capacity and you can move 6'' and come in with all guns a-blazing, thanks to defensive weaponry. Super annoying, you shoot up enemy infantry on the move and get to deliver your Terminators safely; it also has the frag launchers allowing you to use init when charging into cover.

LR Redeemer's weapons only get effective after entering enemy 2d6 melta range, I'm not sold on it.

Alex


Offline Natinator

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #12 on: August 3, 2011, 05:38:15 AM »
Thanks for the help guys. I linked my friend to the thread, and he had a read through it. But was going to basically change just about everything according to what you said... so Im going to help him balance the list with all the different advice given.

He likes the Chapter Master, so may keep it, or just go for a Captain instead. And the Librarian he has wanted for a while so...

I'm leaning towards either getting rid of the dev squad, or getting it cheaper weapons. Then putting lascannons on the tac squads. Getting them transports too. Do you think combat squadding them at the start, and leaving the lascannon towards the back, and transporting the other guys up, or just taking the whole squad up? Just worried about the 'heavy' nature of the lascannon, and don't want my friend to lose important shooting turns with it if the tac squad has to get somewhere quick.

Either get rid of the dread, or get it long range weapons? Im thinking be rid of it and get in a lascannon pred... Then if that is done maybe a Crusader LR - although I personally like the twinlinked lascannons coupled with good BS and the machine spirit... it really scares the beejeebus outta me when I run AV against it. And he seems to like the lascannons too. In the game we played it kept my two falcons from getting close or even shooting...

Not sure about Pedro Kanto... He is making up his own marines. I guess he can use him just under a different name. Who knows.

Ill get back once we make the changes and see how it fares against criticism then  8)
Who is EPIC? Eldrad, that's who!

Offline Azash76

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #13 on: August 9, 2011, 09:06:53 PM »
Nice thing about CSM is "play as" so you can use any character painted and named anything you want as long as you equip them similarly. The real power is the characters you can not field a standard captain or chapter master that will add as much punch and benefit to the army than the IC's in the codex. That's just the way Matt Ward wrote it.

Depending on the mission objectives and the opponent I for sure would combat squad the Lascannons to the rear and use them for fire support. Against every opponent your not going to want to do this obviously (tau you just want to be in there face asap the lascannon makes a better baseball bat against the tau than a shooting weapon :) ).

Two schools of thought on the Devastators. They are expensive but they can be a pain to take out and they have better odds of getting a hit in. Believe it or not with a 4+ cover they have more durability than a Predator. However a Predator can field almost as much fire power for a fraction of the points. You can run a pred with some lascanon sponsons and an auto cannon and your rolling 4 dice a turn for 120ish pts. Also you can run a little trick people like to bum rush Devastators it's SOP to deal with them in melee rather than shoot them to death. If you have the librarian back there with them You can let your opponent bum rush away and then right before he gets there use Gate of Infinity and scoot on out of reach so they become a very effective distraction as well.

The dread could go both ways. Think about this idea. If you are keeping the devastators and adding the lascannons to the tac's for combat squading having a dread back there with a lascannon, auto cannon, missile launcher, or plasma cannon might not be a bad idea. He would make an effective guard for your rear line of heavy weapons while adding his own long range fire power to the line. Pretty much good with a lascannon against everything but a monsterous creature but those you should have enough back row fire power to whittle down before they get to you. A squad of berzerkes, banshee's, jump pack assaulters are gonna be a game over for your fire support that's where that dreadnaught would really come in handy.

If your thinking about getting rid of the devastators in favor of a predator your going to have more mobility and you can deploy the heavy weapons teams far enough away from each other to make your opponent choose one or the other so you don't need a body guard as much.

If your going Predator I would for sure go with a Redeemer. You have 4 las cannons shooting away on the back line what you want that LR doing is moving 12" a turn getting those terminators to the point where they can do the most harm as fast as possible. So at most your shooting one heavy weapon at a time anyway and you have the powerful MM and the dice happy assault cannon for that. Moving 12" a turn range should not be a problem. I prefer the Redeemer to the Crusader personally it has more versatility like the ability to wipe whole troop choices of wraith guard at a time and deal out death to standard troop choices. Which of those depends on what you intend to see more often. MEQ go the Redeemer non MEQ (nids, orks, tau) go the Crusader.


EDIT: Oh if you do end up going with Pedro I would think seriously about adding in a unit of sternguard possible in the slot you removed the Dreadnaught from. They are a great versatile unit and with Pedro they are a scoring unit. Some combi's maybe a heavy flame, a PF or PW and you have one pretty damned good forward objective scoring unit.



« Last Edit: August 9, 2011, 09:18:58 PM by Azash76 »

Offline Slim.NZ

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 06:40:37 AM »
Librarians seems to be really popular round here, but I personally think that Chaplains are cooler.  Run him with the termies in the land raider.  I agree with dropping the Chapter master - a hell of a lot of wasted points.  You could get a Vindicator that can drop a pie plate ever turn and a Rhino.

I've been experimenting with the loadout of my Assault Termies, and I have to say that 5x Hammers is the way to go.  Yes, you lose an attack for each model, but they can reliable take on anything in the game, from monstrous creatures to tanks to heroes.  The only thing you need to keep them away from is swarms.

I run a Dreadnought, but with a Multi Melta, not an assault cannon.

Offline ak-73

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 07:42:04 AM »
If I was to run a Chaplain, I would almost always run him as counts-as Cassius. You get so much more out of him, plus it fits the rugged Crimson Fists fluff. Heck, I could even see myself running a pseudo Captain Cortez as Cassius. For someone without Eternal Warrior, he's pretty hard to kill.

Alex

Offline Natinator

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2011, 05:45:26 AM »
Ok, so my mate is changing a few things.

Firstly he will probably be dropping or changing around the dev squad. He will atleast be putting the lascannons on the Tacs instead.

Im not sure what he wants for the dread. So far he seems to just move it to mid field so it can pick on my Guardians. It then gets ripped apart pretty quickly. Im gona try and get him to make it more ranged - so maybe plasma cannon + missile launcher, or something. Im not too sure what is a good setup for the dread.

He will probably be removing the Chapter Master, and going for a super Deathstar - so 5 assault termies, chaplain (id go for Cassius, but Im not sure if he wants Termie armour or not. Cassius is obviously better), and Librarian in termie armour with storm shield. So far he hasnt really cared about Librarian powers, because of my Runes of Warding, he just simply doesnt bother casting.

Other than that, he may go for a LR Crusader instead of the normal, or maybe even a Redeemer. At the moment he only has one rhino, but ill try and get him to buy another one, so he can move his tac squads around.

I think his ideas are sound, except for the almost 500pt sink of the Deathstar. We have been playing 1500pt games, and that unit, coupled with the LR, eats half his points... Don't get me wrong, it hits like a train, able to take on just about anything, but it is slow... Next time we play (probably next Friday), Ill just avoid his Deathstar unit, so he can see what can happen. Every other time his Termies have gotten into combat one way or another (using them to protect his tac squads - and therefore kill points). An objective based game will mess him up too.

Ill post Fridays main lessons here, and any changes made/going to be made.
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Offline Azash76

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Re: Vanilla Marines - need help 1500pts
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2011, 10:57:56 AM »
On two objective games Deathstar's are great you drive it straight at the objective and shred everything in 12 inches of the objective.

On 3+ objective games you have to be a little more strategic about your objective placement with a mind to the Death star. You want to fairly close together so it can support both objectives in an offensive and defensive capacity. Use the size of the Land Raider to your advantage park over the center of the objective nobody can claim or contest because of the foot print of the raider (they have to be 1" away from the Land Raider). That is a basic tactic to pull your opponent to you and remove the mobility of armies like the Eldar and Dark Eldar.

The other thing when playing Eldar and I play them allot my friend has run everything from Mecdar to a form of Eldarzilla there is one major rule for space marine armies. Stay together! Assuming your list isn't built around alpha strike drop pods. Your tougher up close and you have long ranged guns. Keep your mid ranges close to each other so your army presents a mass of overlapping fields of fire when the Eldar come in with there 12-36 range weapons you have a massive fire power advantage if they trickle in (mecdar especially love to break up, divide, and kill) when things die everything that came in is now in rapid fire, flamer, and assault range things that will take a heavy toll on Eldar from an infantry perspective. Eldarzilla is little different you need to know what to shoot with what in what order.

The main thing though as I said is sticking together and maintaining cohesion with your space marine army. It also helps to have some fast attack that is fairly cheap that is fast and an peel off and take out isolated targets of opportunity (speeders with MM, outflanking LSS etc) cause as Eldar try to isolate you they will inevitably spread themselves out somewhere and being able to take advantage of that could mean the difference in the game.

 


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