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Offline nevaenuffbass

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Dark eldar allies
« on: November 16, 2014, 10:00:28 AM »
I wanted to start a discussion about dark eldar allies... And what they offer to the current eldar dex.

I'll start by stating my observations, which are probably obvious to most experienced players.

1. Webway portal. Obvious synergies with strong alpha striking units - wraithguard, firedragons etc.
2. Open-topped, deep striking transports. So we can now assault out of a mech list. Put banshees, scorps, harlies in raiders / vypers. Did you know raiders can deep strike? That is quite powerful for such a fragile model. Synergy with autarch? Wave serpents turbo boosting to block return fire.
3. Poison weapons. Well, I actually don't think these add anything that the pseudorend doesn't do better, with the exception of range.
4. More mc's. You can take up to 9 high-ish T monsters in a dark eldar list. Go well with eldar wraiths.
5. More fliers. Are the de fliers any good? Nice models...

Tell me what I've missed or what I've got wrong!

Offline Plastikente

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 12:01:26 PM »
5. More fliers. Are the de fliers any good? Nice models...
As a DE player, I am not terribly impressed with our flyers.

The Razorwing is pretty good for anti-infantry, and can have a little bit of cross-role capability if you give it Dark Lances.  Thing is, you are probably not short of anti-infantry firepower anyway.  The Razorwing is cheaper than either of the CWE flyers though.

The Voidraven comes equipped with über-lances and the bomb, which makes it moderately effective against vehicles and other flyers.  Thing is, for the same price you could have a crimson hunter, which fires more high strength shots and is more manoeuvrable.  Voidraven can pay a load more points to take missiles as well, but these are basically AI weapons and you can get them on the table more cheaply by taking a Razorwing.  The only exception is the implosion missile, which is a (not large) blast that takes out TEQ, but by the time you kit a Voidraven out with those you are looking at more than 200 pts, which I don't think is worth it for a flyer which can be taken down by bolters.

Both DE flyers have the same armour as CWE flyers (ie, made of paper).  Neither flyer has Vector Dancer (which really annoys me - aircraft and pilots are supposedly just as good as their CWE cousins), or the weapon loadout to effectively threaten other flyers, which, in an army without any other skyfire weapons, is a real kick in the teeth.  TBH, I am looking at allying with CWE to get at your flyers; I wouldn't be thinking about it the other way round.

They are really nice models though  ;D

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 12:52:23 PM »
I'd actually advise against deepstriking transports full of assault units.  A raider/venom that moves flatout should be able to deliver a turn 2 assault no problem by simply starting on the board.  Sure, you expose yourself to turn 1 shooting, but jink + nightfighting/night shields + positioning yourself behind terrain should make it pretty easy to survive to deliver your payload.  In comparison, a deepstriking transport risks being shot up by more things when it arrives and won't allow its payload to assault until turn 3 minimum. The assault unit transport deepstrike thing seems like it would really only pay off if you're sure your opponent will target your assault unit early or if you know he'll have an ideal target hidden in his backfield where a non-deepstriking transport couldn't reach. 

I'm also not 100% sold on dark kin transports as a fix for craftworld assault problems.  Banshees will get delivered more reliably, but they're still low strength and thus hard to count on.  Scorpions will probably be fine, but infiltrate means they need the transport a bit less than the others. Harlequins will probably benefit from this a lot as they get dramatically better when they're delivered successfully, but they're still quite squishy against overwatch.  Maybe that could be offset by putting some sort of Ld debuff on the transport so that the death jester pins things more reliably? Or can pinned units still overwatch?

I've been reluctant to use allied raiders much, but I may give it a shot soon as I've been using harlequins more often.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 03:06:33 PM »
I think the basic DE warriors are great, cheaper than guardians and outrank the rangers severely in number of shots/point cost. Mixing Kabalites with Avengers seems good to me in a balanced list. A raider with splinter racks full of kabalites are quite ok against FMC's. With PFP giving them FNP in the late rounds kabalites are good objective campers.

I am also sensing a werid combination of a shadow council on venom spam, You could take Eldrad and 5 spiritseers and stick them on a venom each. Sure it'll cost points but as you have a 5++ save you don't need to jink and can fire 12 shots from each venom, and then throw 6 psychic shrieks. They are also adaptive enough to allow you to just stick them into a deathstar council and have the venoms fly around on their own.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 03:07:49 PM by Fenris »
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Offline magenb

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 05:17:03 AM »
If you are going to use a Raider to deliver a melee payload, why wouldn't you just drop Incubi out? They have better armour, hit harder, at least the same number of attacks and a better AP. All for about the same point cost as banshee's in a wave.





Offline Starrok

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 06:21:44 AM »
Quote
If you are going to use a Raider to deliver a melee payload, why wouldn't you just drop Incubi out? They have better armour, hit harder, at least the same number of attacks and a better AP. All for about the same point cost as banshee's in a wave.

Largest problem of incubi that I noticed in the games where I tried them - they cost quite a lot, and have the following problem: They still can't stand against dedicated assault units of other races (Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wraiths, Chapter master on bike with shield eternal, orc bikers etc.), because of lack of invulnerable save, and their good AP on weapons is wasted against weaker targets that they can deal with, since they barely ever walk in 2+... So technically they don't do the job they are fit for, any better than, say, banshees, but are considerably more expensive for the same output.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 08:54:35 AM »
IMO Incubi aren't meant to fight thunderwolf cav, chapter masters etc. Their job is to butcher standard Marines and other heavy infantry equivalents. Thunderwolf Cav and the like are meant to be shot to death by Venoms and what not. If you need to assault those units (and I wouldn't) its the job of the Archon to go in there and take em down with an Agonizer and a big old unit of Grotesques.
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Offline Starrok

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 09:32:57 AM »
Quote
IMO Incubi aren't meant to fight thunderwolf cav, chapter masters etc. Their job is to butcher standard Marines and other heavy infantry equivalents. Thunderwolf Cav and the like are meant to be shot to death by Venoms and what not. If you need to assault those units (and I wouldn't) its the job of the Archon to go in there and take em down with an Agonizer and a big old unit of Grotesques.

That's exactly the problem I talk about. For killing standard marines you have more cheap and effective units than incubi. Thus, their role is questionable.
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 10:45:10 AM »
I hear a lot of distain for incubi, but I still stand by mine.  I think they were better in the oldbook where you could reliably hand them (4+) Feel No Pain and quickly get them furious charge, but they're still pretty scary.  As has been pointed out, they're ideally useful against power armored targets that aren't as scary when hitting back.  They are "expensive," but not for what they do.  A squad of 5 with a klaivex wielding demi klaives does something like...

3 attacks each for normal guys on the charge = 12 attacks, probably hitting on 3s, so 8 hits, assuming marine equivalents and no furious charge you wound on 4s for 4 wounds meaning 4 dead marines.  And then let's add in the klaivex who will get at least 4 more attacks on the charge, hits with about 2 or 3 of those, does 1 or 2 wounds.  So all together, that's  ~5.5 dead marines.  Now let's say there were at least six marines in that squad thus causing rampage to kick in. The klaivex will get an average of 2 more attacks, 1-2 will hit, so about .5 or 1 wounds for a total of ~6 or ~7 dead marines. 

If I'm remembering marine costs correctly, that's around 100 points of marines killed on charge by a little over 120 points of incubi.  With a challelnge, the klaivex can ensure that the guy with a power weapon/fist died during that charge, and then you'll kill the remainder on your opponent's turn.  Not too shabby.  Incubi are all about bullying units that don't want to deal with what you're sending their way.  If your target has a bunch of storm shields, you may want to consider a different target.  Then again, I still advocate the use of wyches, so take what I say with a grain of salt. >_>

P.S. Just remembered the strength bonus from demiklaives, so the klaivex is doing something like 2 wounds without rampage (instead of 1.5) and about 1 wound with rampage (instead of .75). 

Offline nevaenuffbass

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 08:52:44 PM »
Warriors on raiders with splinter racks... So much firepower without dismounting.
Venoms with trueborn
Such good support to say a Sami hann style list
Then consider ravagers and dark reapers on venoms, or even fire dragons in venoms/ raiders.


I see the whole thing as a space pirates kinda themed list. It'd be fun to play, so fast.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #10 on: February 1, 2015, 08:27:19 AM »
Quote
IMO Incubi aren't meant to fight thunderwolf cav, chapter masters etc. Their job is to butcher standard Marines and other heavy infantry equivalents. Thunderwolf Cav and the like are meant to be shot to death by Venoms and what not. If you need to assault those units (and I wouldn't) its the job of the Archon to go in there and take em down with an Agonizer and a big old unit of Grotesques.

That's exactly the problem I talk about. For killing standard marines you have more cheap and effective units than incubi. Thus, their role is questionable.

A squad of 4 in a Venom is a very cheap and very effective unit. The ability to suck shooty infantry into combats they will most likely lose is very valuable. Whats more if you have a Klaivex, furious charge, plus rampage is truly excellent and rewards you for going with small Venom deployed units.

I think as 7th edition rolls on Eldar players and Dark Eldar players are going to see the need for CC as Imperial Armies get faster and faster. Shooting is easier... but a well-timed assault from a reliable CC can be invaluable. The value of CC goes beyond just the killing power. Denying units the chance to move and shoot in addition to killing them is very important. It changes the entire flow across the tabletop and opens up the board to your shooty units, protects them from reprisal and thus improves their effectiveness. Its one of the reasons I'm so excited for Harlies!
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Offline magenb

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #11 on: February 2, 2015, 12:03:50 AM »
Raider with Fire Dragons.... deep striking fast moving anti armour... Any one tried that combo?

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #12 on: February 2, 2015, 12:25:30 AM »
Raider with Fire Dragons.... deep striking fast moving anti armour... Any one tried that combo?

Saw a variation on this at a tournament recently. Swap out the venom for an archon with a shadowfield for more durability (in a way) and no chance of scattering on deepstrike.

Offline magenb

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #13 on: February 2, 2015, 04:39:04 PM »
Raider with Fire Dragons.... deep striking fast moving anti armour... Any one tried that combo?

Saw a variation on this at a tournament recently. Swap out the venom for an archon with a shadowfield for more durability (in a way) and no chance of scattering on deepstrike.

Did it work well or did it go down in flames?

Offline Fenris

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #14 on: February 2, 2015, 07:20:26 PM »
I am propably going to try out a 1850p army this weekend with an archon with shadowfield and WWP attached to fire dragons. (I'm giving the archon a blaster too) It's basically 1500p eldar with 350p DE-allies.(taking a raider with splinter racks and 10 kabalites for Anti-FMC, and some reavers)

It may be difficult to place the archon in the right position to tank the shots though, especially as he denies battle focus.
I'll return here with comments when I see how it works. :)
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Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #15 on: February 3, 2015, 12:45:05 AM »
Raider with Fire Dragons.... deep striking fast moving anti armour... Any one tried that combo?

Saw a variation on this at a tournament recently. Swap out the venom for an archon with a shadowfield for more durability (in a way) and no chance of scattering on deepstrike.

Did it work well or did it go down in flames?

It devastated the Crimson Fists drop pod army in the first round, but his vehicles got chewed up by the eldar player's serpent spam in round two. The dragon unit itself seemed to do fine, but there weren't any huge single targets for him to send it after.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Dark eldar allies
« Reply #16 on: February 3, 2015, 07:15:01 AM »
I am propably going to try out a 1850p army this weekend with an archon with shadowfield and WWP attached to fire dragons.

Try it with Wraithguard, and a Fusion Gun/CC Autarch. Majority T6 is absolutely nasty especially with the Shadowfield. In fun games the Wraithblades with Axes, an Autarch with Soulshrive, and an Agonizer on the Archon is BRUTAL
« Last Edit: February 3, 2015, 07:16:53 AM by Cavalier »
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