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Offline Swamp Rat

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Dire Avenger Tactics
« on: November 16, 2006, 04:59:09 PM »
Ok, its becoming quite clear that this unit is the new love for Eldar, at the minute, when more aspects are released, then maybe it'll move on, however, until then, Dire Avengers are reigning supreme.
Now my question is wether to use them as shooting, or combat. Having a 5+invulnerable in combat makes them pretty hardcore, able to take a terminator squad on and at least hold them, maybe the Exarch will pick off the odd one or 2 per turn, but its quite possible that this 150 point unit can hold a 250 unit from marauding through your lines, at the very least. In shooting however, they could have 30 strength 4 shots, and then charge, giving them a total of 30 strength 4, and 22 strength 3 attacks ar a higher/equal initiative than most armies CO.

Now, my question is, seeing as Guardians (for pure numbers) can provide close range fire power (40 shots from a full squad, at equal points cost to a full marine squad with missile launcher, thats twice as many Eldars), Which would be best for 400 points?

as you can see from my other posts, im already experimenting (in theory at least) with a mixture force of Guardians, Storm Guardians, Harlequins, and Dire Avengers, and i'm wondering about peoples experineces with Guardians and Dire Avengers combined.

The idea i had was for Harlequins to pin a unit, then charge with the Dire Avengers/Storm Guardians, and obliterate a unit, however, Dire Avengers are mega awesome at shootin, so i re think that one.

Any thoughts?
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Offline Arun

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 05:11:22 PM »
Ok, its becoming quite clear that this unit is the new love for Eldar, at the minute, when more aspects are released, then maybe it'll move on, however, until then, Dire Avengers are reigning supreme.
Now my question is wether to use them as shooting, or combat. Having a 5+invulnerable in combat makes them pretty hardcore, able to take a terminator squad on and at least hold them, maybe the Exarch will pick off the odd one or 2 per turn, but its quite possible that this 150 point unit can hold a 250 unit from marauding through your lines, at the very least. In shooting however, they could have 30 strength 4 shots, and then charge, giving them a total of 30 strength 4, and 22 strength 3 attacks ar a higher/equal initiative than most armies CO.

Now, my question is, seeing as Guardians (for pure numbers) can provide close range fire power (40 shots from a full squad, at equal points cost to a full marine squad with missile launcher, thats twice as many Eldars), Which would be best for 400 points?

as you can see from my other posts, im already experimenting (in theory at least) with a mixture force of Guardians, Storm Guardians, Harlequins, and Dire Avengers, and i'm wondering about peoples experineces with Guardians and Dire Avengers combined.

The idea i had was for Harlequins to pin a unit, then charge with the Dire Avengers/Storm Guardians, and obliterate a unit, however, Dire Avengers are mega awesome at shootin, so i re think that one.

Any thoughts?

Pinning a unit and then charging it is useless. Pining a unit is only useful if said unit is very dangerous due to shooty reasons and has to be kept 'at bay' because of dangerous CC abilities as well etc...

Use DAs only against Hordes. In other cases, Pathfinders and 10 Guardians with 1 Starcannon do the job for you.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 09:16:02 AM by Arun »
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Offline Swamp Rat

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 05:24:40 PM »
Whoops, mistake on my part, i meant pin them in combat with the Harlequinns, then hit them with the back up unit.
the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to function the way a soldier is supposed to function -- without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All war depends on it.

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Offline Redlion

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 06:20:21 PM »
Well Swamprat, one thing I can tell you about is guardian. Unfortunately, I never used dire avengers, and I want to add them to my army now.

I see uses for them in conjunction with my guardian as well. People under estimate what 30 + strength 4  shots can do. Even to termies. Thats not their real strength obviously though. Against numerous units, IE nids, orks or crons though. Even marines. 30 strength 4 shots is going to do serious damage to them. combine fire a unit of 10 guardian with a weap platform and those da's. Woe to the unit that receives that hail of bladed death. What 50 strength 4 shots, coupled with whatever your platform does as well. Not counting doom, nor guide thrown in for good measure. If it doesn't destroy a 5 man termie unit, which is how most people run them, it is going to cripple it so bad a simple charge of your guardians will probably wipe it out, or your avengers as well.


Man, I have been thinking of a pure dire avenger, guardian army. Imagine at how many troops you can have. Add a unit of dragons, and banshees as well. Man, its got serious possibilities. Thats not counting all our other good stuff we have to compliment this as well. My mind is overloaded, with them.

Anyway. I wish I owned some dire avengers now is all I can say.

Offline Swamp Rat

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 06:27:17 PM »
Redlion, tell me about it, im gettin some on Saturday, been waitin all week for it ;D

I'd use Harlequins as well as Banshees, and i've had the same thoughts as you on the pure Dire Avengers/Guardians front. Only difference to yours is i'd have Scorpions or Banshees, depending on opponent. Oh, and then theres Spiders, and a unit of Spears, and reapers, jesus, thers just so much...
the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to function the way a soldier is supposed to function -- without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All war depends on it.

Don't cry for the Happy dead
But weep for those who dread to die.

Space Wolves Win Draw Loss - 5-3-0

Offline Spider-King

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 06:41:55 PM »
Well two units i thought were crap before cos of their points cost is the reason id didnt use them. Now with the new dex im basing an entire army around them.

Sweet sweet guardian jetbikes and shiny spears  :D :'(
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Offline Redlion

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 07:43:09 PM »
When I 1st got my jetbikes in way back in 2nd, I thought, these things are never going to survive. Boy was I ever wrong, and true there have been battles they didn't make the whole game, but man did I under estimate them is all I can say.

Even though in 3rd very few people used them, I still used mine. They were great, I agree they were overpriced, but man they helped me many a battle.

Weakening some pretty tough units, so my other units had a much easier time with them. Hauling buggy and strafing a dev unit on a flank, or going to get that whirlwind, and shooting it in the butt, and blowing it sky high.

They paid for themselves, many times over. Hauling butt in the last turn of a game to contest, or claim a table quarter. I've even killed special characters with them. If they were alone, and in back of other units, my jet bikes could easily get to them, and 6 strength 6 shots, and 8 strength 4 shots, that rerolled misses, usually killed their character, or seriously hurt them bad.

I loved my jetbikes man. Even in 3rd.

Offline Andaah

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2006, 05:29:45 AM »
In my last battle I had 2 units in Serpents with Bladestorm.

A Chaplain and full Assault Squad was charging my lines. I was scared.

So I doomed them, unloaded my 2 units and let loose. They all died.

In my list I will use 2 of them to work in pairs (or alone in the case of Tau or Hordes) and decimate an enemy squad that needs to die.

Offline Spider-King

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2006, 05:34:14 AM »
Spoken like a true autarch Andaah!  :D
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Offline Andaah

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2006, 05:45:52 AM »
Hehe. I hope I am gaining back a bit more of my Eldar-ness since saying that I sacrifice guardian jetbikes for the greater good.

I really like Dire Avengers for more than their ability to dish out ridiculous amounts of fire. I like that when I use them they are a risk to me. If they don't destroy their target and get charged they are in trouble. I like this. Using them is a risk and so when it pays off it is all the more satisfying!

One tactic which works with Fire Dragons and Avengers (when mechanised) is to have a shining spears unit or some other fast combat unit. The Avengers/Dragons unload, fire and are vulnerable to shooting/assault. I like to charge with my fast squad to create a LOS-blocking combat which shields them from shooting!

Offline King of Hearts;Servant of the Queen

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2006, 09:50:07 AM »
Hey guys...I just thought of some thign.......

Get a squad or 2 of harlequins and line them in a row with the VoT and line them infront of your 4-6 squads of DA or Guardians and then if you go against an assutlly army like Orks, They really dont shoot much sooo then your harles are safe then they assult the harlequins.......ha rles kill a few then the hit and run 3D6 BEHIND the DA or guardians then move forward and Blade the open orks then assult with halres IF theirs any left.....Lol seems kind of complex but im going to try it!

That means 120-180 Str 4 shots AND HAlresquins 40-80 rending........Oh God.....Im scared......Lol
« Last Edit: November 17, 2006, 09:51:56 AM by cole luchsinger »
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Offline Algavinn of the Many Paths

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 06:41:06 PM »
The below is the Dire Avenger entry for the Biel-Tan in 4th Edition Project.  I thought it might be useful.  It may be skewed towards Biel-Tan, so that that into consideration.  I am adding additional information to this post, despite its date of last post, because it is now stickied.




Dire Avengers:
Well here we are, the first troops choice.  I will speak more in detail later about the troop choices as a system, so will try to give no more than a passing mention of that here.  As with all of the aspects, the Dire Avengers were refined or enhanced towards their role.  They are no longer just glorified guardians, but masters of the shuriken.  The previous role of the Dire Avengers was to take down light infantry and horde units primarily (as simple as ten Guardsmen, or as prolific as 20 Shoota Boys or Genestealers) and to tie up enemy squads in close combat until something tougher arrived.  The role has not deteriorated.  With the new exarch abilities and equipment, as well as possibly help from Doom, this squad has the capacity to cause some hurt to tougher targets such as Tyranid Warriors, or even monstrous creatures.  Also it is no longer just the Exarch that has defensive qualities.  There aren’t any direct changes to their points or stat-line but the new equipment and exarch abilities make the squad. 

Shooting/CC mix:
By themselves the Dire-Avengers are still a cheap and effective unit for taking down light infantry.  Against units like IG squads, their better saves and WS will tend to allow them to take down equal sizes of guard in the end, or when shooting then assaulting capable of wiping smaller squads and consolidating into others without much difficulty.  Against tougher opponents such as Tyranids/Orcs you will need a numerical advantage to execute this kind of attack.  This is where the exarch comes in.

With bladestorm a squad is able to boost their firepower for a turn and quickly reduce the numbers of the opposing squad, making it much more likely to gain numerical superiority for finishing a squad/gaining safety in CC.  The exarch’s double shuriken catapults also help, giving the squad 5 BS5 shots which if against light infantry, especially if not in cover, will claim a lot of lives.  The typical offensive exarch is bladestorm+double shuriken catapults.  Whether going for wiping out a dangerous squad on the go (HQ squads, CC squads, or even looking to hurt an MC), or weakening a tough squad before initiating other roles, as discussed below. 

With the increased range of the shuriken catapult and these new and powerful exarch abilities/options the Dire Avengers have increased their capabilities in defending objectives, wiping out both the mundane light infantry, and tougher/larger squads of light infantry.  They also have capabilities for putting so many shots on tougher targets such as meq/MC’s to cause realistic damage (not wiping, but causing meaningful wounds that with combined fire could take it down).  A few months ago my Dire Avengers bladestormed a hive tyrant, causing 2 wounds, and on the charge between them and the farseer, they killed it.

CC lock:
Here the Dire Avengers gained a big boost.  It does still require the exarch to reap these bonus utilities, but they are much stronger than the third edition abilities.  This role of the Dire Avengers is constituted by the Avengers locking opponents in CC, either to strangle them to death, slowly cause deaths and try to force sweeping advances, or to hold the enemy unit until tougher support arrives.  This is one of the main roles I will speak about in the article section of coping with the troop changes. 

Defend is the most massive ability, making it so that they can charge CC intensive units, take away charging bonuses on those intending on joining its combat, or nerfing characters in CC.  This greatly slows down incoming damage to them, sometimes making it as if they were fighting half as many foe’s.  The Shimmershield may seem like a rarely used item, but it depends on the role in which you use your Dire Avengers.  If you are fighting enemies with power weapons, MC’s, rending, etc, and wish to use your Dire Avengers in this locking role, it can be quite useful, but it is definitely not a “don’t leave home without it” piece of equipment, but can be essential if you have that specific role in mind.

The CC lock role of the Dire Avengers is one of the most useful roles for the Dire Avengers, and is one of the most crucial it will have.  It has become infinitely better at it than in the 4th edition.  Some people elect to take shooty Dire Avengers, or locking Dire Avengers, and some that take multi-role Dire Avengers.  This is where most of the arguments come from when people say, “is this item worth it?”  As always in 40k, and the Eldar in particular, rarely are there bad items, merely good or bad roles and situations for them.  I would say that the Dire Sword is no better than it used to be, its only benefit is the extra attack from 2 CC weapons, but the double shuriken catapults are cheaper and will likely cause more wounds than the extra attack in CC.  The power weapon may be better for against MEQ targets, but otherwise double cats seems to be the best in any exarch situation.



Overall the Dire Avengers have increased their ranged capabilities immensely against tougher or larger light infantry targets, and because of this increase have gained tougher targets such as smaller meq squads (or larger with combined support), MC’s, rear/light vehicles, etc.  One could say there was a locking role before 4th edition, but it has become so infinitely more practical that there is a definite and necessary role in the Biel-Tan army for it.  More on this later in the article.
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Offline stezerok

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 09:15:25 PM »
Redlion, tell me about it, im gettin some on Saturday, been waitin all week for it ;D

ah! things are great when taken out of context!  ;)

but seriously, DA' are a really fantastic unit. I think that personally, their cc abilities are all gimiks. I find the inv, to be kind of lame, and really situational, and the Dire Sword, to be a crap copy of a force weapon (seriously enemy Ld averages at 9, and sometimes at 10, what makes them think that a sword that forces a Ld test is honestly going to do anything?) So aside from defend, a full shooty unit with Bladestorm, kicks major butt. And with the range of the gun, its rate of fire, combined with the high Ld, and I of Eldar, I'd say DA's are quite possibly the best basic infantry in the game.

As for the original question, I'd say it really depends. Personally I've tried (and to good success) to "thicken" the DA's fire with a small squad of Guardians, and it definitely works. If you really want to use your guardians in this way; as support up close, then arm them up with a shuriken cannon, and you have a neat pair. If you dont want them that close to the enemy then holding them back with an EML handy to cover your DA's from afar, is always a good plan. It really depends on your tactics, but Guardians definitely do work well as support, so I'd say you're on the right track...

Offline ranger_55

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2007, 01:57:01 AM »
Dire avengers are best as a shootign unit I think. I field 2 units of 10 with Exarch with bladestorm and dual catapults.

They are priceless just for the look on you opponents face when they see the ammount of dice you are throwing as you bladestorm with them.. ;)

As other people have suggested makeing them a combat unit is just about the worst thing you can do...defend is...ok but the minimum of 1 attacks means its onyl useful against squads with more than one attack and the shimmershield is not a CC weapon so thats one less attack than diresword/pistol combo plus you cant shoot with the exarch the inv sav is onyl in close combat...so again you have a shooting unit with upgrades for close combat. If you want a close combat unit for troops take 20 storm guardians they are just about as good as dire avengers in combat. otherwise there are plenty of REAL close combat troops available to the eldar.   Diresword / pistol is not a bad combo since you still get 2 shots from the exarch when you bladestorm then  you can charge in with 4 power weapon attacks (forget the dire part its useless, just remember its a power weapon part) so if you are that close thats a nice way to get a ton of attacks on an enemy squad.
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Offline Hypopheralcus

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 08:49:19 AM »
Depending on the opponent shimmerhield + defend can be really a nasty combo. Those genestealers will think twice before charging into such a unit, as their rending will effectively be reduced by 66,66%

Offline Sapphon

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2007, 09:13:14 AM »
I feel as if I've just seen a ghost.
"I personally don't use Guardians at all...there's something about 500 year old artists dying en masse I find distressing."

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Offline milhouse123

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2007, 09:20:45 AM »
Hello

I am new to eldar and have some dire avengers, I also have Asureman as well.

I have been play testing my eldar and found that when he is a unit of dire avengers they are nigh near unstoppble, because you have the combat potential and shooting power. I was able to plough through a unit of beserkers, bikes and blood letters as well with this one 7 man unit.
 this was all done in assualts although i did lose that game, but there was only 1 wound in it on either side.

Dire avengers in my opinion are a very nice unit and every army should have at least 1 6 man unit, and if you have the points take the phonix lord as well.

Defend +shimmer shiled is well worth takeing as well as blade storm, an all round versatile unit

Milhouse.

Offline ranger_55

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2007, 03:15:26 PM »
With the addition of a powerful character like the phoenix lord I could see the dire avengers as becoming much mor versatile the invulnerable save would help against power weapons/fists too. I personally find those situations rare however which is probably why I favor the shooting upgrades over the close combat ones.
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Offline milhouse123

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2007, 04:27:32 AM »
Going back to the harlequinn Avenger tactic, you dont actually need to get behind the avengers in fact you just need to break combat and move the harley in to a posistion where they could assault that enemy again, or a new one assuming the avengers don't manage to mop the rest of them up.

Or if they are that slose to the enemy even assautl with the avenegers


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Offline Defenestratus

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Re: Dire Avenger Tactics
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2007, 10:47:12 AM »
I'm honestly quite baffled by the people that say that the shimmershield/pw combo is useless.

I can't tell you how many 5 man terminator squads have met their end at the hands of a DA squad that shot it first, then charged it in CC.

That power weapon is quite possibly the most underrated piece of kit in the codex.

Its another one of those "doesn't look good on paper but in practice its pretty useful" items.  In my experience anyways.

 


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