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Author Topic: The UK's EU Referendum  (Read 36068 times)

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #160 on: June 27, 2016, 03:02:06 PM »
The Farage advert was also *strikingly* similar with one from 1930's Germany, which was not lost upon many.
It's rather disturbing how often that comparison is being made these days. 
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #161 on: June 27, 2016, 03:20:22 PM »
Nigel Farage's Brexit Poster Is Being Likened To 'Nazi Propaganda', Compared To

Actually relevant this time though.

Edit: Irisado - There you go, Brussels replies to Boris with basically "LOL, no." Editorials are not the best places to announce negotiation targets.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 03:52:06 PM by The GrimSqueaker »
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #162 on: June 27, 2016, 04:03:43 PM »
Problem for the EU is, they can not simply throw the UK out. The UK can basically take all the time they want to officially turn in the resign paper, as far as i know.


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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2016, 04:18:45 PM »
Which means business as usual for the EU and a continual political and economic amphetamine parrot storm for the UK government. Take today already, the UK lost it's AAA credit rating.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2016, 04:21:56 PM »
Problem for the EU is, they can not simply throw the UK out. The UK can basically take all the time they want to officially turn in the resign paper, as far as i know.

Indeed.  Article 50 places the onus on the member state.  The state wishing to withdraw has to invoke article 50.  The EU institutions cannot.

The uncertainty this is going to cause has massive economic implications for many businesses and people.  In my case, for example, it makes universities very uncertain about advertising jobs, because they do not yet know whether their lost research funding from the EU will be replaced in some form by the government, or whether some other agreement can be reached with the EU.  I am dubious about either of these becoming a reality.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:23:49 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Lonewolf

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No problem, I'll give you a 100% increase in pay effective immediately and retroactive to 1999.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2016, 08:31:00 PM »
This might sound like a stupid question, but people in Northern Ireland are entitled to Republic of Ireland passports?
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2016, 08:35:58 PM »
This might sound like a stupid question, but people in Northern Ireland are entitled to Republic of Ireland passports?

Yes.  Anyone born anywhere on the island is automatically entitled to one, as is anyone with Irish parents.  Sometimes Irish grandparents is enough too.

My brother has already got his form.

Offline Lonewolf

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #168 on: June 28, 2016, 10:13:30 AM »
I have found the perfect solution for the Remainers:

The UK joins Ireland! 


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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2016, 11:31:25 AM »
So Boris has decided he didn't want to play Rush-Out Roulette after all and won't be ruining running for leadership. It appears Cameron's scheme has taken one scalp after the fact. Now to find someone to claim the helm.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2016, 11:47:05 AM »
Michael Heseltine has emphasised just what a mess Boris has left in his wake:

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There will be a profound sense of dismay and frankly contempt. He's ripped the party apart. He's created the greatest constitutional crisis of modern times. He knocked billions off the value of the nation's savings. He's like a general who leads his army to the sound of guns and at the sight of the battlefield abandoned the field. I have never seen so contemptible and irresponsible a situation. He must live with the shame of what he has done.

I agree with that assessment.  It is worth pointing out that Gove has stabbed Boris in the back this morning as well, in a scene that is rather reminiscent of Macbeth.  The whole affair of the leaked e-mail sent by Gove's wife to her husband rather gives it that air.  There is no doubt that Gove has done the dirty on Boris, but for Boris to just opt to avoid standing caught most people by surprise.

It's all a very unappetising mess.  The worst part of it is that it was all avoidable. 
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2016, 11:51:51 AM »
The next problem is Gove himself appears to be running and he's an arch level numpty in his own right. Mr. People Are Tired Of Experts doesn't appear qualified to run himself out into the ocean let alone a country.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2016, 12:04:20 PM »
What's worse is that I expect Gove to be one of the two final candidates chosen by Conservative MPs.  Teresa May is likely to be the other.  She's by far the better candidate out of the two, but she is still to the right of Cameron.

Gove is extremely divisive.  He used to be a journalist.  I remember reading one of this articles in The Times backing the war on Iraq.  He also managed to upset all the teaching unions and most teachers when he was Secretary of State for Education during the coalition government, so he has plenty of form.  He would be a terrible choice for prime minister.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2016, 02:03:53 PM »
It's all a very unappetising mess.  The worst part of it is that it was all avoidable.

This describes approximately 75% of all political messes.

Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2016, 03:03:34 PM »
That may be a conservative estimate.

The point I was intending to make behind that statement was that there were two chances to avoid this.  Normally, only the politicians can take the decision, for example, the Iraq War, however, in this case Cameron made the mistake of putting the referendum in his manifesto, thus committing himself to holding one, while the public made the mistake of not voting on the issue.  Thus, there were two sets of people (politicians and the public) who made errors, instead of it just being the responsibility of the political elites.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2016, 04:26:06 PM »
Well, considering how many bridges Gove burnt in the past 24 hours I hope he never becomes Minister of Infrastructure.

May is a better candidate yet her actions regarding migration are still on the nose.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #176 on: June 30, 2016, 05:09:59 PM »
Interestingly, it is being claimed that Rupert Murdoch asked Gove to stand and Gove used to write for The Times.  A connection is not difficult to establish there.

I also hope that May does triumph over Gove in a run off.  While she has been very harsh with her immigration policy, she's at least more level headed and pragmatic than Gove, whose ideological drive to the right would be very worrying indeed.
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Offline vonny

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #177 on: July 1, 2016, 07:58:40 AM »
I come very late to this topic (after the fact, actually), and I must applaud all of you for the level-headedness displayed in this discussion. Especially CC, to be convinced to do different than your initial standing point based on arguments takes guts and humility. I applaud you.

I would also like to express that I am glad for forums such as this, that would allow us to remain in contact, people from different parts in the world and with different access to news and information (or at least, different focus in what we get fed in newspapers and o the news), and discuss things not only about miniatures, but the important things too. Though borders may be drawn politically and economically, we can remain in contact.

Then, my part in this discussion. I was surprised when the leave vote won, and aghast when I saw interviews on the news with people saying things like "man, I voted leave, but I never thought it would really matter!". It baffles me.
What I have seen on the news here in the days since though, has scared me more. People who voted to leave have no idea on how to leave. Governments aren't prepared for that outcome either (except perhaps Cameron, that move was pretty brilliant).
What scares me most though is that violence against 'outlanders' has increased drastically in the UK after the vote. Lots of countries have negative feelings brewing against 'outlanders' (Mr. Wilders here in the Netherlands being a prime example), but it appears that in the UK, since the vote, it has gone past words and is going into defilement of buildings used mainly by polish people, to 'outlanders' being yelled and pushed out of busses and the like. To my (truth be told, not fully informed) mind it... 'feels' like the Kristallnacht in the 30's in Germany. As if the leave vote has given people 'leave' to hate on immigrants. And it frightens me something fierce.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #178 on: July 1, 2016, 10:49:23 AM »
Regarding the Netherlands, this may be of interest to you Vonny: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/06/28/nexit-on-the-cards-netherlands/.  I don't know that much about Wilders, but he strikes me as being rather similar to Farage, albeit without the same level of charisma.

The Brexit vote certainly seems to have given a minority of individuals legitimacy, in their minds, to make racist remarks and be abusive to anyone not seen as English.  One person even told a Welsh woman to go back home according to one report.  It is all very worrying and I think that the parallel you have drawn is a valid one.  I am very concerned by the racist and xenophobic behaviour going on.  The one thing that I will say though is that it is still minority behaviour and a number of members of the public who did vote leave have also been very shocked by these comments.

In essence, what has happened here is that Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, and Nigel Farage ran a very xenophobic anti-immigration campaign, which Farage then took a step further and ignited with that vile poster.  It was all very unpleasant and none of them have yet taken any responsibility for their behaviour.
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Offline vonny

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #179 on: July 1, 2016, 06:48:40 PM »
Thank you, Irisado, for that article. Seeing as there wasn't much news in there I didn't know, I guess I'm not that mal-informed about the situation here, at least.

I'm glad (and expected no less) that it is a minority doing those awful things over in Great Brittain, but the fact that they feel legitimized to do such things, and seem to be getting away with it to a certain extent, just feels... well off. But you already agreed with me on that point. Let's just hope the majority let their voices hear in opposition of this angry minority.

Also, thank you, Irisido, for taking your time out to still visit here and talk with us (me) about this stuff, and even looking up some stuff about the Netherlands specifically. This counts doubly so because of the troubling times in your own area.
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