Topic: 2k Tournament Ulthwé

[Blazinghand]

Hi 40konline,

I've played a few games with my Ulthwé Eldar, and am gearing up for a tournament a week from today. The Tournament is 2k points, ITC missions, max 3 Battalions and no models with a PL of 32+ allowed. I will potentially go up against the following lists at the tournament:

Deathwatch
Death Guard
Admech with Kastellan Robots and Neutron Onagers
Imperial Knights (3 with support or perhaps 4 of them)
Foot IG (Cadians)
Space Marines (don't know much about this list)

Here's the list I've put together which won't require too much painting and I think will let me play well against these lists:


Craftworld Eldar: Ulthwé
1998 pts, Battalion + Vanguard + Outrider = 8 CP

++Ulthwé Battalion Detachment - 442 pts
Foot Autarch with Spar-Glaive
-Warlord Trait: Fate Reader
-Remnant of Glory: Faolchu's Wing
Eldrad Ulthran
10 Guardians + Shuriken Cannon Platform
5 Rangers
5 Rangers

++Ulthwé Outrider Detachment - 245 pts
Warlock
5 Swooping Hawks, Exarch has Hawk's Talon and Power Sword
3 Windriders with Twin Cats
3 Windriders with Twin Cats

++Ulthwé Vanguard Detachment - 1311 pts
Warlock
7 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
6 Fire Dragons, 1 is Exarch with DB Flamer
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons

The idea will be to deploy 3 Wave Serpents. 2 with have D-Scythe Wraithguard, and 1 will have the Fire Dragons. Windriders and Guardians will start on the table for screening and objective contesting since they are cheap and fast.

I will use Webway Strike to get in the 7 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons. The Swooping Hawks and 2 Ranger squads will also start in reserve. Rangers will ideally emerge onto objectives or good cover, Swooping Hawks are good anti-infantry that I can bring in wherever I am weak or it is hard to reach.

Eldrad, the Foot Autarch, and the Warlocks will be distributed to wherever they are most useful. One hope would be to cast Fortune and Guide on the 7 Wraithguard when they come in on turn 1 to make them extra deadly, threatening, and hard to remove.

Does this seem workable/good? I'll be up against a lot of vehicles and MEQ like lists, and of course that Knights list, but I also need to be reasonable competitive against that IG list if I end up getting him as my opponent.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Hey Blazing.

Over all I think this is a decent list. I do have to ask though, what does the outrider detachment do for you? Other than give a CP?

You are actually really close to a Brigade... Drop one Serpent, and a single Wraithguard with cannon.

That frees you up 203 pts. Take 3 single Support Platforms with Shadow Weavers. That leaves you 36 pts, which I'd use to take a Warlock with Quicken. I'd combine the two 5 man d-scythe units into on 10 man one and have them use the WWP, accompanied by the aforementioned warlock. This puts your 6 man and your dragons in a serpent each - and now you have 12 CP to play with. Dropping a 10 man D-Scythe squad and moving them up with Quicken can be brutal... Sure WC 7 can be hard to do, but that is where I'd be willing to burn a CP to re-roll if needed. Or, if you can shuffle Eldrad into position, you can burn Seer Council to add 1 to the psychic tests.

I am a huge fan of running the Autuarch with Fate Reader as the Warlord. Allows us to be rather aggressive with CP use.

Thinking more about the Positioning with getting Seer council + quicken off on the 10 man scythes, it actually seems pretty easy... Depending on how CP aggressive you wanna be... Eldrad can move up 7 + d6 (or a flat 6 Matchless Agility). The Scythes and the Warlock need not be deployed together. So they can be up to 18" apart (not needing line of sight), and the 6" between the warlock and Farseer means you have a 37" range to throw the Scythes up into flamer range.

Simplified version:
Eldrad moves 13". WWP drops Warlock 6" in front of him, and the  WraithScythes 18 inches in front of him. That actually makes it relatively easy to pull off... and needing a 6 to cast (with potential re-roll) means they are almost certain to into range... and be able to charge something too.



EDIT:
Just realized that (A) you already had two warlocks so didn't need another and (B) you need three more troops...

Not sure how to fit that in your list....

EDIT #2:
I realized could just drop a sing WraithScythe and make it fit...
Here is what I got....


++ Brigade Detachment[1989pts] ++

+ HQ +

Autarch: Faolchu's Wing, Warlord: Fate Reader

Eldrad Ulthran Doom, Fortune Will of Asuryan

Warlock: Quicken/Restrain

+ Troops +

. 4x Dire Avenger
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults

. 4x Dire Avenger
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults

. 4x Dire Avenger
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults

10x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Shuriken Cannon

5x Ranger

5x Ranger

+ Elites +

. 5x Fire Dragon: 5x Fusion Gun

Wraithguard: Wraithcannon, 6x Wraithguard

Wraithguard: D-scythe, 9x Wraithguard

+ Fast Attack +


. 4x Swooping Hawk
. Swooping Hawk Exarch: Hawk's Talon, Power sword

. 3x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults: 3x Twin Shuriken Catapult

. 3x Windrider - Twin Shuriken Catapults

+ Heavy Support +

. Support Weapon: Shadow Weaver

. Support Weapon: Shadow Weaver

. Support Weapon: Shadow Weaver

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon

Wave Serpent: Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Cannon

++ Total: [1989pts] ++

[Fenris]

With Fate Reader Autarch you should really go for a brigade, some more guardians in the list would also not hurt.
Celestial shield is a great way to force your opponent to put a lot of firepower to remove them with the added 6+++ according to my experience.
If your opponent doesn't remove them they shall know the power of doom + shurikens, which works better the bigger their targets are.

Then if it isn't too much trouble I strongly recommend giving those windriders laser lances.

I think you could do OK with only 1 unit of scytheguards, and if you can spare 2 wraithguards, they can have the option to ride in a serpent in which case a spiritseer rather than a warlock could serve them well.

I don't know what you can bring as heavy support if any, but a unit of dark reapers getting guided by Eldrad, and potentially used with the stratagem forewarning to set up traps for deepstrikes wouldn't be a bad choice.


If you don't want to go brigade, you could instead make your outrider detachment Alaitoc, and your vanguard Iyanden.

[Blazinghand]

Hey faitherun, In terms of models I'm missing in order to make that list:
1. I only have one squad of 5 DAs (Exarch wih 2 cats) ready to go
2. I only have one Shadow Weaver, and it isn't painted.

I'm not sure how excited I would be to cut out a squad of FDs and a squad of Wraithguard to get a bunch of DAs and shadow weaver guns, unless it's actually the case that my list lacks the anti-infantry necessary to deal with Astra Militarum lists. I also feel that with only 2 Wave Serpents, it's somewhat less likely i'll be able to deliver my models into the range they need to be in. Also, it just seems like a really big investment into footdar with the 15 Das, 10 Guardians, 10 Rangers, all going on foot as my troops. There's also the issue of lacking the models. I do have a Night Spinner, as well as Dark Reapers for the Heavy Supprot slot, and I could probably get the Shadow Weaver paitned up.

And if this is JUST to get Brigade, I'm not sure the +4 CP is really worth it if for that.

Hi Fenris,
I do have tons of Guardians. I could run 40, maybe even 50 pretty easily with the painted models I have lying around. Not sure if that would be effective though.

For the Windriders, I was mostly thinking of them as cheap ground-holding and objective-taking units, so I didn't want to invest much in them. If I made them into Shining Spears, I'd feel obligated to try to get them to combat so they were useful. This might still be good but i'd need to get something else to run out and grab objectives away from the fight.

I could lose a squad of D-Scythe Wraithguards to pay for another Serpent for the Wraithcannon Wraithguard, but I was hoping to put those in the webway and just jump them out as needed.

re: Heavy Support, I own:
8 dark reapers, 2 of which are Exarchs with AeMLs
1 Falcon or Night Spinner (turret is magnetized). Can assemble a Fire Prism turret pretty quickly
2 Support Weapons. One is primed and magnetized for any loadout. One is unassembled.
3 Wraithlords. One has 2 flamers. One has 1 Flamer, 1 Shuriken Catapult, and magnetized heavy weapons. One has 2 Shuriken Catapults, and 2 Bright Lances.

[Fenris]

I would probably have done something like this then:


Craftworld Eldar: Ulthwé
pts, Brigade = 12 CP

Foot Autarch with Star-Glaive
-Warlord Trait: Fate Reader
-Remnant of Glory: Faolchu's Wing
Eldrad Ulthran [Doom, Guide, ]
Spiritseer [quicken/restrain]

20 Guardians + 2x Shuriken Cannon Platform
5 Dire Avengers
-Dual catapults (use Guardian models?)
8 Storm Guardians
-Chainswords.
8 Storm Guardians
-Chainswords.
5 Rangers
5 Rangers

5 Swooping Hawks, Exarch has Hawk's Talon and Power Sword
3 Shining Spears
-Star lance
3 Shining Spears
-Star lance

5 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
6 Fire Dragons, 1 is Exarch with DB Flamer
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons

7 Dark Reapers
-AML
Wraithlord
-2 Bright lances and 2 shuriken catapults
Wraithlord
-2 Flamers and ghostglaive

I'm not sure where this lands in points, you could cut one serpent and some reapers.

The idea is to have the Avengers ride with the dragons in one serpent, sacrificing avengers should it get destroyed.

20 guardians will arrive by webway portal, the wraithguards with cannons can do the same, but can otherwise ride in a serpent with the spiritseer.

Eldrad would need to stay close to the reapers if there are deepstrikers to use forewarning, otherwise guide-range is fine, the spiritseer can potentially help Eldrad move around should he need to.

[SeekingOne]

Hi Blazing!

A couple of quick notes from experience that I gained so far... (so everything is imho obviously)

1. Brigade, though feasible, isn't really worth it at 2000. Whatever your army composition, you'll likely end up taking too much stuff you don't really need. This is particularly true if you're running an Ulthwe Fate Reader.

2. Wave Serpents are point sinks. This doesn't mean they're bad: they are fantastic defensive units and are essential for keeping certain high-value units (like Reapers) alive through your opponent's Turn 1 if you're going second - but that's about it. They are point sinks in terms of damage output, therefore I'd never recommend taking more than 2. In fact, the only unit that is valuable enough to invest into a WS to keep that unit alive through turn 1 is Reapers, while the only unit powerful enough to justify investing into a WS to deliver it to the enemy is Scythe-guard. Taking Serpents for any other units is a waste of points. Considering your list, I'd suggest keeping 2 WSs for 2 squads of Scythe-guard, drop the third one and spend 3 CP to deploy both WG and Dragons in the Webway. Just make sure your Autarch is already on the table when you declare their deployment - so that you can try to regenerate CP right away.

3. As it was already mentioned by other guys, your Outrider detachment really doesn't seem to serve any purpose. I'd suggest dropping it altogether and fielding 6-8 Reapers. This would also work as a great excuse to keep the third Serpent One possibility is to take 2x3 Reapers and replace one of the WS with a Falcon, thus getting 3 HS units for a Spearhead detachment.

Other than that, it's a good strong list. It shouldn't have any problem with enemy tanks. That many WG with the Ulthwe buff would be hard to chew through. As for dealing with infantry - don't forget that WG can also charge into melee! If you send them after Guardsmen, they'll be sure to crack some heads and take little to no damage in return. And then they move out of combat and shoot again.

[Blazinghand]

Thanks for the feedback. It seems like pretty universally people think I should either drop the outriders, or own the "taking things in lots of slots" and try to fit brigade. I'd rather not try to go for brigade and take an army with a lot of units i'm not sure how to manage. Having a simple battle plan is easier for me, especially in a tournament with time constraints. I think I'll go for making things work with 1 Battalion, 1 Vanguard so I have an army that is easy to use effectively.

RE what I own:

So I do in fact have 5 Dire Avengers! I just painted some up this weekend, though they are still a WIP:



Despite the incomplete paintjob, these are tournament legal since they have 3 colors: the blue basecoat, the silver armor and guns, and the lighter blue striping on the plumes. I could really quickly paint up another squad of 5 in a day if needed.

I don’t have any storm guardians ready to go, so I can’t run 16 of them. 10 rangers I can do, I have them already painted up.

Shining Spears would take some conversion work to have ready in time. If the regular jetbikers aren’t a good choice I could just drop the outriders as a whole.

I do have the rest of the models listed though.

I like the idea of a Serpent carrying 5-6 Fire Dragons and 5 Dire Avengers: that sounds like a really good group to have in a Serpent, capable of dealing with most enemies. A big squad of Dark Reapers with using the Forewarned stratagem sounds like it could be really good vs deep strikers. However, I’m not sure how good  Wraithlords would be without the Iyanden Chapter Tactics to keep them effective at low wounds.


—


So, let’s say I cut the outrider detachment to take some Dark Reapers, and stick them in a Wave Serpent…

Ulthwé Army - 1 Battalion, 1 Vanguard - 1983 pts, 7 CP

++Ulthwé Battalion Detachment - 442 pts
Foot Autarch with Spar-Glaive
-Warlord Trait: Fate Reader
-Remnant of Glory: Faolchu's Wing
Eldrad Ulthran
10 Guardians + Shuriken Cannon Platform
5 Rangers
5 Rangers

++Ulthwé Vanguard Detachment - 1506 pts
Warlock
6 Fire Dragons, 1 is Exarch with Firepike
8 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
7 Dark Reapers, 1 is Exarch with Aeldari Missile Launcher
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons


The changes being made are,
1) lose the Outrider detachment
2) add some Dark Reapers
3) give the FD Exarch a Firepike instead of DB Flamer since they Deep Strike now

So my deployment would look like this:

On the Board:
Autarch nestled between serpents
Wave Serpent with Scythe Wraithguard + Warlock
Wave Serpent with Scythe Wraithguard
Wave Serpent with Dark Reapers + Eldrad
Guardians screening

In Reserve:
5 Rangers with Appear Unbidden
5 Rangers with Appear Unbidden
6 Fire Dragons with Webway Strike
8 Wraithguard with Webway Strike

I’ll typically start a game with 4.5 CP (7, minus 3 for Webway Strike, Autarch makes back half a point).

Upsides to this:

1. I now have a lot more damage output due to Dark Reapers being some of the best shooting units in the entire game, especially against heavy infantry. This also means I have significant ranged output
2. My ability to jump in and reinforce with versatile or anti-infantry focused firepower, is reduced (10 fewer warp spiders, 5 fewer swooping hawks)
3. I’m spending a bunch of CP to webway in a squad of Fire Dragons


—

I could also swap out the Guardians and 1 Rangers squad for Dire Avengers, then swap the Outriders for another Wave Serpent with Fire Dragons + Dire Avengers inside, so I’d have 4 Serpents:
1 Serpent with 5 DAs, 6 Fire Dragons, Autarch (or perhaps Autarch on foot)
1 Serpent with 5 DAs, 6 Fire Dragons, Eldrad
1 Serpent with 5 Scythe Wraithguard, Warlock
1 Serpent with 5 Scythe Wraithguard, Warlock

And for Reserves:
5 Rangers with Appear Unbidden
7 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons with Webway Strike


It might make sense just to go with the first thing, swapping out the Outriders for a Dark Reaper squad

Thoughts?

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

I very much like the 4 serpent list. Gives you a good mechanized force that should weather some alpha strike pretty well. Also gives you a bit more CP to play with... TBH I am a huge fan of Reapers.... Just feel your CP at that point is so limited and small...  Ugh decisions...


Either way, I wouldn't have the Autarch in the serpent as that, I think, means no rolling for CP's back...

[Blazinghand]

The 4 Serpent List would have 8 CP (Battalion, 2x Vanguard). I think yeah it would probably make sense to start the autarch on foot. I can shield him with the bodies of Serpents (maybe nestle him in between the wings or something), that way I can try to regain that point from deep striking the Wraithguard, good idea.

These lists do all look stronger without the Outrider detachment, and simple enough to operate, which will be key to being able to stay cool and do my best at a tournament

Even though the 4 Serpent list sinks like 550 pts into Wave Serpents that only have Shuriken Cannons, it feels pretty cool to "only present AV targets" at the start of the game. Not sure if this is actually effective though, relative to cutting one Wave Serpent and using it to pay for more stuff. The first list with the Dark Reapers definitely has more firepower, since although it has 6 fewer Fire Dragons, it has 1 more Wraithguard and 7 (!) more Dark Reapers which can start shooting right away on Turn 1.


EDIT:



OK here is a tidied up quad-serpent list

1996 pts

++HQ++ - 277
Autarch on foot with Spar-Glaive, Relic Wings, Warlord: Fate REader
Eldrad Ulthran
Warlock with Witchblade

++TROOPS++ - 188
5 Dire Avengers, 1 is Exarch with 2 Shuriken Catapults
5 Dire Avengers, 1 is Exarch with 2 Shuriken Catapults
5 Rangers

++ELITES++ - 1010
5 Fire Dragons, 1 is Exarch with DB Flamer
5 Fire Dragons, 1 is Exarch with DB Flamer
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes
8 Wraithguard with Wraithcannons

++DEDICATED TRANSPORT++ - 536
Wave Serpent with Twin Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon
Wave Serpent with Twin Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon
Wave Serpent with Twin Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon
Wave Serpent with Twin Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon


--

Let's start by assuming we ignore the troop differences, which are mostly fiddlable-with in a way that is independent of the Elites and Transport. We can also assume we want to keep the same HQ distribution (Eldrad, Autarch, Warlock) and the same detachments (Battalion, Vanguard).

Then, the diff between that and the Reapers list is:

1. Remove one Wave Serpent
2. Remove one squad of Fire Dragons
3. Add one large squad of Dark Reapers that will ride in a Wave Serpent
4. Make room in a Wave Serpent for those Dark Reapers by: bulk up remaining Fire Dragon squad a little and having them webway in

[Fenris]

Sorry for not typing for a while but I think going in the 4 serpent direction was the right choice.
As for the current predicament I think you should make room for some reapers by dropping some fire dragons, because you have an abundance of anti-tank IMO.

Webway dropping the Wraithcannonguards, is IMO a much better choice than the Dragons because they can take to heat with their durability and they don't yearn for melta range, on top of that their fists aren't bad in melee, which they also can just bail out of when they please.

Since you are not going for a brigade, making the Autarch your warlord is not that profitable, as his recycling will be less if there are fewer CP to start with.
I don't think the warlock would be a much better choice though, but a spiritseer or farseer might.

I would also like to point out it's a shame you don't have some guardians in the list, they could shield the Autarch and while doing so getting 2+ with re-rolls to hit using the ulthwé stratagem and be surprisingly resilient to shootin with the celestial shield.
You may be able to shield the Autarch with the Rangers though.

Either way the Cadians will likely cause trouble for you, but the other armies should probably fear you

[Blazinghand]

The Quad-Serpent list ended up doing well! I got two wins (one against Ultramarines, one against Raven Guard) and one loss (against Death Guard). Wrote up how things went here: Blazinghand's Blue Craftworld Eldar

Thanks for the help!

[Fenris]

Nice report (haven't read all yet though) and good pictures
Did you play "Eiffel65 - I'm blue"
during the first game?
I think you should have had some more terrain on the tables, but it was not entirely a shooting range.

About the last game though, did you really need to roll for those Wraithguards to arrive from reserves, I mean the webway stratagem says "any turn" or did he just bubblewrap that well?

[Blazinghand]

Nice report (haven't read all yet though) and good pictures
Did you play "Eiffel65 - I'm blue"
during the first game?
I think you should have had some more terrain on the tables, but it was not entirely a shooting range.

About the last game though, did you really need to roll for those Wraithguards to arrive from reserves, I mean the webway stratagem says "any turn" or did he just bubblewrap that well?

Thanks!

RE: the Wraithguard coming in from reserves, the problem wasn't that they couldn't come in. didn't need to roll to bring them in or anything, I just couldn't bring them it at all in position to shoot Morty. If you look at the picture from game 3, you'll see there was a big elevated platform. At the center of that platform was an orange token, which is the center objective. In ITC Mission 5 (which is what we were playing), that objective is worth one victory point every turn. My opponent flew Mortarion right into the center of the platform. Because Mortarion is really big, that meant that I couldn't bring in the Wraithguard on the platform, since they need to be 9 inches away. However, if I put them OFF the platform on the ground, they'd be too far away to reach Morty with their 12 inch range guns. In other words, my 320 point unit of Wraithguard with guns that are ideal for shooting Morty, were not able to deep strike into a spot to shoot him. This isn't because he was screened, but due to the terrain: there was just no spot for them on the platform, and off the platform was too far away due to elevation differences for their guns to reach.

I considered holding them back until turn 3 (this was on turn 2 that I wanted to bring them in), but I figured I needed every body on the field at the time.