Topic: deamon hunters, can they induct marines and ally kroot.

[draco84oz]

It will still be an Inquisition list, so Kroot will probably be a ok, but will most likely make your inquisitor a radical fluff-wise.

There is still one thing that hasn't been answered:

The Kroot can be used as allies by anyone except Space Marines, Necrons, Sisters of Battle, Tau, Tyranids.

Does this mean that Witch Hunters cannot take Kroot allies, or does it refer to the old Sisters of Battle list from chapter approved/3rd ed rulebook?

[Imperial Kelly]

i take it to mean if you have sisters in your WH force, you can't take them.

if you have a WH army without sisters, i suppose ya could!   

[Benandorf]

Ghaz, you can rules lawyer all you want, but the fact of the matter is, if you go into a tourney with a DH list that has both GK and kroot, you will be ruled against.  The judges don't care if "Grey Knights aren't space marines, wink wink", they will see "spacemarines+kroot outlawled" and "Daemonhunters have Grey Knights, which are MEQs in power armor with bolters" and then say "No kroot+DH".

[Ghaz]

Ghaz, you can rules lawyer all you want, but the fact of the matter is, if you go into a tourney with a DH list that has both GK and kroot, you will be ruled against.  The judges don't care if "Grey Knights aren't space marines, wink wink", they will see "spacemarines+kroot outlawled" and "Daemonhunters have Grey Knights, which are MEQs in power armor with bolters" and then say "No kroot+DH".

And you're making up rules that don't exist.  Show me where in the rules that Grey Knights are ever called 'Space Marines' or where they're found in 'Codex Space Marines'?  And exactly how do you know how a judge will rule on a particular matter?  Are you psychic or something?  I don't think so or are you just making more baseless comments you can't support?  The fact of the matter is you don't know how a judge will rule and you have nothing that says Grey Knights are Space Marines according to the rules.  When it comes to the actual rules, the fluff is pointless and has absolutely no place in the discussion.

[Benandorf]

No, I know he will rule this way because while in a perfect world, fluff may not come into it, but in rules disputes like this, in the real world, most judges would fall back on common sense or fluff.  And either of them would tell you that kroot would not be allowed with Grey Knights.

But, I'm not going to argue with you, I've found how pointless that is.  Just hope that if you try something like this, the judge is the only judge in the world that listens to you rules-lawyering and doesn't simply rule on the question.

[Ghaz]

No, I know he will rule this way because while in a perfect world, fluff may not come into it, in rules disputes like this, most judges would fall back on common sense or fluff.  And either of them would tell you that kroot would not be allowed with Grey Knights.

But, I'm not going to argue with you, I've found how pointless that is.  Just hope that if you try something like this, the judge is the only judge in the world that listens to you rules-lawyering and doesn't simply rule on the question.

In other words, you don't know and you just like being an annoying little troll.  Come back when you can act like an adult and support your claims instead of making up imaginary rules.  It's pointless discussing the rules with people like you who will do anything they can to avoid the actual rules and make up imaginary reasons why they're 'right' when by all accounts they are not. 

And by the way, in the perfect world you want, the judge would not be swayed by fluff that has absolutely nothing to do with the rules.  Only in the fantasy world that you're living in would a judge do a player a disservice by ignoring the rules in favor for fluff that has no bearing on the game whatsoever.  Do us all a favor and if you don't want to discuss the rules, don't bother posting.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

This case is a bit like Godwin's law, but with comparing someone to a troll.  Be civil with each other or just don't talk to each other, folks.

Saying that Grey Knights aren't Space Marines is like saying Ork Hunters aren't Imperial Guard because the word isn't mentioned in their rules (as far as I remember).

[Benandorf]

I said that in a perfect world, the judge would ignore fluff.  And Juries would ignore all items that were objected to.  However, this is not a perfect world.

See, Mr. Peanut listens to logic, instead of rules-lawyering.

Do us all a favor and if you can't be civil, don't bother posting.  Or just the second part.

But I'm done talking to you.  Have a good rules-lawyering life.

[Ghaz]

'Logic' is when you discuss the rules, you don't try to invent rules that you can't support just because 'the fluff says so' which is exactly what you are doing.  The fluff also says that one Space Marine should be able to defeat an entire arny by himself.  Does that mean a Space Marine player should automatically win every game?  No.  Because the fluff is absolutely meaningless when it comes to the game just like your arguments are absolutely meaningless as well because you do not have a single rule to back them up.  It's not 'rules lawyering', it is the fact of things.  If you want to discuss fluff, go to the fluff boards and not the rules boards.

So if you want to use 'logic', discuss the real rules and not your imagfinary made-up rules.

[Grumpy Kwi]

Looking at the question of the thread, can Daemon Hunters can take both marines AND kroot? 

My guess would be that you cannot take two allies (that is if the marines are actually considered an ally). If you can take 2 allies then the next question is if the two are permitted to fight together in which case I would say that they probably would not based on the blurb in the kroot rules and also on the Space Marines rules but wouldn't doubt that I am probably wrong as well.

However, if you can take 2 allies AND you determine that they can indeed be taken in the same list - would you really want to create a list that appears to be ignoring the "spirit" of what the Imperium is waging this war in the first place? I thought it was to eradicate all aliens from the galaxy.

The arguement if Daemon Hunters can take kroot at all isnt the question but rather a different topic all together. On the same note a Daemon Hunter army that takes a Kroot ally doesnt appeal to me to play against - it looks like a list that has forsaken the "fluff" and abandoned the "spirit" in order to adopt the "just win at all costs" attitude.

I'm not saying they cant take kroot - it looks as if they can.

[Anivin-ra]

The no kroot rule goes for anything that worships the emperor with the exception of I.G. even then their worship is shaky at best. if your army swears allegiance to the emperor in any way you are not allowed to take kroot as allies.
 The emperor forbids it ....
  DH can get away with using a bound daemon because it's one and it can be swept under the carpet ... using a whole army of aliens is just plain out. it can't be overlooked. There is no way any judge in turni situations is going to allow an imperil army to bring kroot.
  your right the rules don't say they can't, but the rules also don't say they cant bring Eldar as allies. nor do they say that DH can't team up with nids or any other race. Why not just bring DH with Dark Eldar and kroot allies. The rules also don't say that you can't re roll every dice until you hit ... unless your rules specifically say you can then you can't bring kroot as allies no matter how you do your list.
 It’s forbidden by the emporium and its specifically mentioned in the kroot codex.
 The odds are stacked against the ruling on this one.

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

The no kroot rule goes for anything that worships the emperor with the exception of I.G. even then their worship is shaky at best.

That is the worst case of inference i have seen in my life. i don't see how you jumped to that conclusion.

if your army swears allegiance to the emperor in any way you are not allowed to take kroot as allies.

Yes, i see now on page two....

The emperor forbids it ....

Fluffwise that is rather incorrect. The imperium even had embasies on craftworlds. Have a look at your old eldar codex (don't know if that fluff is still in the new one).

There is no way any judge in turni situations is going to allow an imperil army to bring kroot.

Fair enough. Obviously some people are less open to cool odeas than others.

Why not just bring DH with Dark Eldar and kroot allies.

There's no eldar merc list

The rules also don't say that you can't re roll every dice until you hit ... unless your rules specifically say you can then you can't bring kroot as allies no matter how you do your list.

The problem in that commetn lies in the fact that out Merc list provides an exclusive look rather than an inclusive one. Therefore what isn't excluded is included. No other list provide inclusive ones ie Daemonhunters say you can induct from IG or Marines. As such anything not included is out.
As such the merc list implies everything not excluded is included. Unless you content that those two are not mutually exclusive. I understand an argument of, "No, GKs are marines" because it's an honest argument, and if an opponent refuses the list on that grounds so be it. The Inclusive argument is just not logical. And by that I mean it makes no sence, not a mathamatical look at logic.

It’s forbidden by the emporium and its specifically mentioned in the kroot codex.

Not entirely correct. And also by this statement guard can't have them, although i get the odd impression the list is designed specifically for guard. Guardsmen are also a lot less likely to dissobey laws than inquisitors. Take a look at the DH rulebook and see that the inquisitors use daemons for their armies. I mean seriously, who else has that kind of authority.

The odds are stacked against the ruling on this one.

I am sorry, but the verdict is still out. I'll take a thematic ruling: GK ar marines, or a legal ruling: Codex DH isn't excluded,but i don't consider most of the above post above to be a well thought out argument.

Mind you, it's your oppinoin, just please keep it plausible

[Anivin-ra]

It’s not merely my opinion. It’s written in the space marines codex’s and in the old rule books from rough trader on up to the current versions. The very story of the human race is about the Eldar who came to the emperor before he was the emperor and told him about the warp and the fall of the Eldar in the hopes that the human race would be able to avoid that fate.
  speed up time ... the emperor makes a decree to kill all psykers and all that sort of thing. He makes the imperial decree that all aliens are to be exterminated.... it's a big long story that is the foundation of the 40k game.
  if you are old enough to remember the beginnings of 40k then you will remember the whole game was based on that decree. it was mostly space marines against.. Well other chapters of space marines... but the story was against orks mostly and then chaos.
 the only time space marines were able to ally themselves with any other race was in rogue trader when you could use Eldar as a special forces unit that was able to deal devastating damage.
 That ruling went away with the rogue trader and then after that space marines were isolationists. They were not allowed to ally with anyone....
 For fear that, they would suffer the same fate as the Eldar.
 It was the whole reason for the horas heresy.

 To quote you
"That is the worst case of inference i have seen in my life. i don't see how you jumped to that conclusion."
  it's not inference it's history. It’s the basis of the game.
 the emperor of man has decreed that all aliens, mutants and heretics will be purged from eh universe. That theme is carried in all the games workshop literature from the gaming books to the story books even dawn of war is shaped around that principle.
  The emporium will not under any circumstances ally with kroot. fluff wise , story wise , and rules based it's just not something that should happen.
 now game play think about it. what do kroot have that the space marines , with all there upgrades , vehicles and special rules for their special rules can't employ. they have infiltraters, big guns , anti infantry , tank killers and savage fast attack what can the kroot offer them except attrition which they can get from there stupid armor saves.
   giving kroot to DH would make them horribly over balanced.

Quote
It’s forbidden by the emporium and its specifically mentioned in the kroot codex.
Not entirely correct. And also by this statement guard can't have them, although i get the odd impression the list is designed specifically for guard. Guardsmen are also a lot less likely to disobey laws than inquisitors. Take a look at the DH rulebook and see that the inquisitors use daemons for their armies. I mean seriously, who else has that kind of authority.
 
 I said with the exception of IG meaning they can have kroot. and you are correct Kroot and IG are a perfect fit. especially Catchcans *SP*

"Mind you, it's your opinion, just please keep it plausible"
as you can see by the fluff and the rules ... my "opinion" is not only plausible it's actual and not just my opinion it's the entire game. sooooo go back in time and do a little re-reading.
kroot and daemon hunters are not meant to be together.

[Benandorf]

pff, history.  If it's not written in a way with no loop-holes in this current version, it's means jack amphetamine parakeet.

Apparently World War 2 never happened, it's not in my rule book >.>  Time to go tell the French to stop faking their invasion/surrender >.>

Logical? No.  Random?  Possibly.  A way to cut through my agonizing boredom?  Course.

About the second part, I meant the first part.

 *MODIFIED BY ANIVIN-RA*

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

If you want to talk theme, there is always the background forum. People here want to know if they can field the army. According to theme space marines don't swim, they scare water out of their way. They are worth whole armies of men apiece, they are rare in the imperium.

Please, let's be resonable, this is an army list, not a background book. Sure marines are rare, but in reality MEQs arew around 60% of the armies you come accross. We are debating their use as a list attached to another. Marines cost 2.5 guardsmen. It's a GAME.

As such let's make this debate productive.

I know the theme  is against it, but if that was the case we might as well say no Kroot for ANY imperial army, but as I stated before it is obviosly designed with the imperium in mind (hell, they even have quotes to that).

As such I suggest you bring the theme more in line with the rules. Sure often rules-lawyering is against the spirit of the game, but I have not been doing that. I merely ask that you base your arguments on the rule books please.

As such I direct you to the Inquisition forum: Are GKs Just another Marine Chapter. Obviously this lies at the centre of the debate. While technically DeathWatch Kill Teams can be fielded, I have agreed that that is against the theme as they are Marines. Let's consider if the Grey Knights count, or if inqiusitors (radical ones) would thematically fit.

Basically lets just see what is reasonable. Personally I'd let anyone use any list against me as long as he's just trying to have fun and be different/unique. If it's for the sake of exploiting it, then he can go play the other cheese-mongers. I see great potential in an awesome thematic Kroot/Inquisition list, so I'd encourage my opponent to use these rules.

Because when it comes down to it it's just a game and i just wanna have fun <cue 80s music>


Oh, and I appologise if I came accross a bit passionate, I wasn't feeling al that charitable;) I promise to play nice if you do :p

[Anivin-ra]

Well if it's a home game I don't care what you bring I'll play how ever I can get it.
 if you want to bring a space marine army backed with nids and dark Eldar hq'd by a war boss in a trukk I don't care I say bring it on!
 If you’re talking about just the rules that are printed on the page then just the way they are printed with no inference and no themes and nothing but just the printed word, then you fall into the grey area of are demon hunters space marines.
   There is nothing that says they are and there is nothing that says they aren’t.
So you have to make the leap that they are. the reason you have to make that leap is because the fluff... the underlining story of 40k is that demon hunters are nothing more than a highly trained special forces unit of ...space marines ... therefore the underlining argument that printed  in words not fluff  it clearly states that kroot can not ally with space marines. Which is also backed by the fluff …we see a reflection of this in the rules for space marines. the kroot them selves don’t care and will ally with any one so long as they get paid. It’s the marines that will not ally with any alien! It’s there codex they we are going with and again we find the fluff backed by printed words or hard rules. so it  stands to reason that Demon Hunters  then can not also ally with demon hunters... who are space marines. Again, they are nothing more than a highly trained special armored crazy unit-bringing chapter of the SPACE MARIENS.
 
  Having talked to several rules boys on the matter they also agree and offered this explanation as to why Demon hunters and sisters of battle were not specifically listed
 "When the kroot merc list was made the Demon Hunters army didn't exists  so it  could not be added to the list. They assumed people would be able to easily make the leap in understanding that Demon Hunters are space marines."
 This is why judges at turnis will vote against it.
  It falls under a strange category that doesn’t often apply to Warhammer it's called common sense.
  I know I know the avatar of Kain can be run over by a tank or killed with monofilament wire ... grenades don't actually kill people they only negate cover saves ; the list of inconsistencies is endless but in this one shining example they were expecting us the players to use common sense. Weird I know. 

And Benandorf were you talking to us because that post didn't even make any sense at all. also in the future I would like you to keep any and all racist comments to your self they are not appropriate,  predictive or even tolerable in any way and only incite anger and more hatred.
 Consider this a warning.
 

[Lord Commissar Spiteful]

So you are saying that you don't think grey knights are right obviously, and while I dissagre i can completely understand and live with it. What about daemonhunters. I mean a radical force, such as the one usinf daemonhosts? I mean if an inquisitor is willing to use a bound daemon to do his bidding obviously kroot aresn't all tht bad?

I like your reasonging about the timeframe, but They do mention sisters in the rules. The fact that they mentioned them specifically was one of the things that conviced me that they also would have mentioned the other Ordos Militant. The timeframe issue means that they would have included both. Still, I think it fit the theme of an inquisitor's forces nicely.

Also don't forget that a lot of people use Kroot as proxies fr other races. I indend to use mine as an elite jungle unit of imperial guard. Obviously this makes the argument of theme void, while relying on the gamer to come up with his own justifications as to why it is so. (IE my unit have an uhm "aversion
" to the marines)

No considring the grey area in the "theme"/"fluff" I'd say this makes for an interesting bit of reasoning. I mean since it is legally allowed, and theme can obviosly now be interpretted in any way you want, I don't see project organisers getting too upset.

My unit won't be using GKs by the way;) Goes against my unit's fluff IMO.

[Imperial Kelly]

they didn't mention the other ordos because of the copyright date 

DH weren't out yet!

[Admiral Stukov]

they didn't mention the other ordos because of the copyright date 

DH weren't out yet!

lol your right

but still, can someone answer the question, can a pure deamon hunters army NO DEMON HUNTERS (this whole thread has been about deamon hunters yet specificly stated it is not) induct 2 allies, if they can, then can they induct space marines, and allie kroot

[Scout-Commissar Squeaky]

in response to this topic, yes i think that you can include Kroot in your DH army. You notice that in the Kroot List it says "The following armies may not make use of kroot." not "you cant use kroot if you have any of these in your army." Also, fluff aside, i think its a great idea for a DH person to put kroot in his army. It makes some nice expendable meat sheild that happen to be good at CC. Im considering putting some in my ork army just for some fire support