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Offline Cavalier

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Soulburst
« on: February 17, 2017, 09:22:40 AM »
Hey guys... so Soulburst. This is an enormous game-changer for Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlequin players. For sake of ease, I want to address all three factions in this topic...

So first off I think it breathes tremendous new life into the Dark Eldar codex. I for one think the DE codex is far more compeititve than others as Lawrence from Tabletop tactics has proven time and again... it also gives a whole new level of power to the almighty Eldar codex. Lets try and leave "for the good of the game/game balance" issue out of the discussion... difficult as that may be.

So to me the obvious impact is on close-range ultra deadly shooting units available to all the factions. The units which immediatley spring to mind, is Wraithguard with a WWP Archon, Warp Spiders, Fire Dragons with a WWP Archon... these are the top-tier options which most people will immediately gravitate to. A tier down, but with much more versatility would be True Born with blasters or shard carbines, Scourge with any variety of weapons and even Black Guardians. All these units either have deepstrike abilties intrinsic to the unit, or can take a Venom/Raider or can easily have a WWP Archon attached to them to get them precisley where they want to go. Granted... they actually have a nearby unit destroyed to trigger Soulburst but with support fire from units like Scatter Laser Jetbikes, the chance to fire twice with all these units on a frequent basis is very, very likely.

Less obvious and less easy is the impact on assault units. Striking Scorpions which have a relativley hefty points price getting the chance to assault twice is they wipe out a unit makes this unit a steal. The Exarch alone can usually mince a unit of Space Marines, bikes, or just about any infantry unit. Getting to do it twice is incredible. Also units like Dark Eldar Beast Packs suddenly become A LOT more interesting. With their fantastic rate of speed at which they move, the chance to move TWICE when near a destroyed unit (friend or foe) suddenly catapults them towards being a very interesting option. The fact that they can even provide Soulburst to other nearby units should they be destroyed is also very enticing as they can be kitted out relatively cheap, but still pack a wallop in any configuration.

Also Harlequins get a HUGE boost from this... Rising Crescendo, Flip Belts + Soulburst gives them incredible threat range and like Striking Scorpions, their heft price tag suddenly becomes a lot more enticing due to the fact that they can now wipe out units with their nasty weaponry, and immediatley launch into another assault, or perhaps duck and cover after a wipe out.

Anyway these are by no means the sum and total of my thoughts on possible combinations... I just wanted to get the ball rolling and see what things leapt out to you on how you may want to use Soulburst.

Again lets not dive into game balance/imbalance issues in this thread... I'd be more than happy to discuss that in another thread as its certainly an issue. Anyways guys I'd love to know your thoughts!

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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2017, 10:26:13 AM »
The most obvious thing is getting more dakka out of a Wraithknight, but it doesn't take an Autarch to figure that one out.

RAW-wise, Strength from Death is an army-wide special rule. Although vehicles cannot gain a Soulburst action from a nearby enemy unit being destroyed, nothing explicitly states that vehicles cannot perform Soulbursts under any circumstances or that they do not have Strength from Death.

Notable alternate ways to trigger Soulburst include:
-The Reborn Warhost lets "an additional unit" Soulburst when a unit is destroyed. Note this does not state that the Soulbursting unit has to be near the destroyed unit. You "could" argue that "an additional" doesn't necessarily mean that you had to have another unit Soulburst in the first place if you really want to rule-lawyer this.
-Dedicated Transports get the same rules as their formation unless stated otherwise (see: Wave Serpents in an Aspect Host as precedent). Nothing states that an Aeldari Bladehost cannot take transports, and their United in Death rule affects the entire formation. Let that sink in.
-Word of the Phoenix does not include a clause excluding vehicles, and neither does the Soulreap part of Unbind Souls.

You should mercilessly exploit these ambiguous rules until GW releases a FAQ. Notable exploits include:
-The Hemlock can take the Revenant discipline now. As a flyer, it has unparalleled ability to position itself for the Unbind Souls power, punk a largish unit (say, a Conscript Blob or Kroot Bubblewrap), get a free round of shooting with its D weapons, and then either Flat Out (if it didn't Vector Dance) or fire the D again.
-Remember the Night Spinner? You can have it provide close support, either through Ynnari Warhost or Word of the Phoenix. Have it move towards a transport or so. Pop that transport, then have the Nightspinner torrent the passengers. For added fun, take a Crystal Targeting Matrix so you can then Flat-out to torrent a second transport's contents.
-Eldar become the best Tank Shock army in the game due to their ability to move vehicles an additional time. Disregard your foe as you simply shove him off objectives, or play bumper cars. Wave Serpents are hilarious as ever for this due to their Serpent Shield.

Other dirty tricks:
Swooping Hawks go from a cute annoyance to a hilarious anti-aircraft option, provided you can trigger a destroyed unit in their Movement Phase. The Skyburst launcher is cute but doesn't guarantee a kill. Other allies might offer options for "kill in the move phase" (Interceptor maybe?) but the options currently escape me.
-Soulburst lets you blunt the worst effects of Tau. You lose a unit to Interceptor, you get 1-2 units able to pull freebie attacks.
-Dragons are not a suicide unit. You can Deep Strike them in with a Venom and disembark them, slag a target, and use the soulburst action to re-embark, before the Venom flat-outs to a better position.
-Why not consider bringing reinforcements of some sort to gunk up your opponent's plans and give you cheaper chaff to trigger Soulburst? Remember that you're allies of Convenience with Tau, and that Tau have one of the most annoying unit-making gimmicks via the Piranha Firestream Wing.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:35:03 AM by MagicJuggler »

Offline Fenris

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2017, 02:05:41 PM »
@MagicJuggler: You can kill stuff in the movement phase with the swooping hawk grenade pack, or possibly with a deepstrike mishap: terrible accident.
Perhaps RAM something in the movement phase?

Overall I think soulburst is a great boost to melee focused armies, because you will need to be really close to your opponent to get any milage out of it.
Sure shooting twice is nice, but the MSU you will need to have to pull that of regularly is quite extensive and you will have to risk your shooty units ending up in CC all the time.
As for using soulburst to move, really? Aeldari armies are the fastest armies out there, unless playing on a bigger board then 6x4 feet it's not really going to matter.
I already have trouble maneuvering a 1500p footslogging army on standard sized boards.
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2017, 04:56:58 PM »
The reason I said kill in the movement phase, is if I'm not mistaken, the Intercept rule that Swooping Hawks get is specifically for the Movement Phase no? Since you would be making a separate move altogether, you could Intercept 2 fliers (or the same one twice if you really need it to die). Or you could drop down, shoot a support unit dead, then use your movement to get out of blast formation.

And of course, double-Tank Shock (assuming a proper FAQ) turns a Wave Serpent from a cute Hind gunship to a flying zamboni of doom.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2017, 08:11:14 PM »
It will be hard for assault units to get a real benefit IMO. Since the "extra" assault continues the initiative steps from where you left off, many pointy eared units will have already made their attacks, and thus won't get to swing again. Getting to assault on your opponents turn is attractive, but that will likely be due to one of your units being wiped out near by. A competent opponent would space their units appropriately.

Not trying to rag on the new book, I just don't find soulburst that amazing. Apart from the horde armies I see, it will be hard to make big plays with the short range of the trigger(unless you get a lucky warlord roll or use the new characters). I still think it's great for those that want to combine the entire space elf range. That alone makes for great combos.



Offline Fenris

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2017, 09:26:06 PM »
@MagicJuggler: You can use 2 units of hawks, one already on the table and one deep striking, it's still not easy killing every model in a unit with a single blast.

@Partninja: The initiative issue can be solved by soulburst assaulting through cover (without grenades), it will of course grant the opponent both overwatch fire and to strike first in CC2. But it's awesome for harlequins who can avoid getting shot and not too shabby for banshees either.

Anyhow, SfD is still a great way to get rid of stragglers (both with shooting and CC) or those multiple Tau piranhas dropping of drones. Very unfluffy though, I mean drones are machines they don't usually have souls AFAIK.

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Offline Partninja

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2017, 10:02:48 PM »
Banshees have acrobatics, so assaulting through cover won't fix it form them but I do get your point. I hadn't thought about that.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2017, 07:47:04 AM »
@Magic Juggler- Great post man. Did not even think of the Hemlock taking Revenant powers. What a gunboat! Love the idea of Soulbursting against Tau interceptor... hadn't thought of that. Could be SO nasty against Riptide Wing which every competitive player seems to be taking regardless of the army. The idea with the Hawks is brilliant too. Love it!

@PartNinja- Could you explain the iniative step thing for that soulburst charge? I don't have the terminology for the fight phase, sub-phase, extra-phase, this phase that phase memorized and haven't busted out my book to clarify. But the thing that really sprung to mind is getting to move twice, then assault. Especially with beastpacks or even units like Hellions. It can really get you where you need to go in assault, especially when engaging your opponents units mid-field. Also Deepstrike defense. Skyhammer drops down, pops one of your units, then you counter-assault them. I always play with multiple assault units, so if one of them goes down (Wraithblades) then my Scorpions come wheeling in, in response. Thats at least how I'm envisioning it. Also! I'm gonna start a thread on the impact of Soulburst on the balance (or lack thereof) in the game. I'd LOVE for you to come by and offer your thoughts on it... because I'm really going back and forth on it! Anyway great stuff.
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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2017, 08:06:21 AM »
If you're already in the assault phase, any soulburst charges will continue from whatever the combat that triggered the soulburst happened to be at. As far as I understand it, however what that means for out of phase charges I don't know but I guess they start at initiative 10.

It does mean that if you got a unit of mixed initiative, e.g. a harlequin troupe and the highest initiative guy completely wipes the enemy, the unit could then soulburst into another combat and continue from that step and get all of their attacks in and wipe a second unit. You still have to deal with overwatch and such but if you get into a situation where you can pull this stunt off, you're going to do a lot of damage with it.

In general I see soulburst more as a defensive rule, as it allows you to react to losing units and either take your own units out of line of sight or into cover or just flat out remove enemy units that haven't shot yet from the board.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2017, 02:01:26 PM »
Pretty much what Sarkrim said. If you wipe an enemy in combat at the I5 step, then Soulburst assault another, you continue on to I4 and don't get to attack. Only really matters in an active assault phase. Shouldn't matter any other time.

We actually did a few games this weekend and found it moat usable in defensive ways. It was difficult to keep units in range in order to soulburst while also trying to get objectives and the like.

Offline mmimzie

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2017, 02:43:00 AM »
Doesn't it though work if you assault a unit destroy it, and then another unit near by assault into a different unit. Then destroy that and so on??

The first assaulting unit can get into range to be soul bursted by other units using thier consolidation. Alternatively Using HIt&run you could use the rather sizable 3d6 move to get into prime range to be soulburst onto.

Other than this it's a good defensive move for melee units as they can use it to duck and hide into other combats.

A few nagging thoughts remain here for how the rules work:

First, If i charge you at Iniative step 1 and the fight resumes do i then roll combat results against this new unit i am in combat with. It would seem this would be the case meaning you could destroy one unit completely by sheer weight of attacks, and then charge 1 or two units and carry the combat resolution into 2 other units thus taking out 3 units for the cost of one real combat, and after which you could then charge 4 more units if you ahve the models in range to do all of this cascading. Obviously this doesn't work on marines as they ignore the BRB.  This is kind of the only way i see this rule working as the combat continues at the current I-step

Second, If you destroy a unit sweeping you are passed all initiative steps, and are effectively done with I steps. As such,  would it not then be possible to continue a normal combat from here??



Final thought, Jet bikes love this tuff. Turbo Bust can be used to get into range for your opponents shooting phase if facing an army like tau that wouldn't really dare assault you. IF they are going to assault you (getting passed your hamemr of wrath [reavers] or charged bonus attacks [shining spears]) Using your assault move can let you get into range to soulburst off your resolved combats.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2017, 03:36:48 PM »
@mmimzie: There is no such thing as to go through all initiative steps after every model in the combat have made their attacks.

@Every1:

Assault
Example1:
If say a unit of warlocks kill a unit of guardsmen, killing all 10. Now the warlocks get to soulburst into another unit of guardsmen continuing at initiative 4, so now the warlocks don't get to strike, but the second unit of guardsmen still can.

Example2:
I same unit of warlocks would have killed only 8 guardsmen, the remaining 2 would be able to strike back, propably not killing anyone anyway. The guardsmen then fail their LD roll and gets caught in the sweeping advance, they die and the warlocks get to soulburst and charges that second unit of guardsmen, but this time they won't get to strike since the combat continues at initiative 2.

However if there is a small forrest between the guardsmen units, the warlocks would have to soulburst-assault through terrain, and without grenades the warlocks will get to strike again at initiative 1.

Shooting
As for soulbursting in an early phase might not always be prudent, soulburst says you can shoot even if you've done that before, however it does not allow you to freely shoot twice.


Example1:
You cast psychic shriek with your farseer, killing a unit in the psychic phase close to a unit of guardians, now those guardians gets to shoot immediately sure, but that would prevent them from shooting in their shooting phase. (they can still run or turboboost though)

There is nothing that allows you to freely shoot twice in a turn, nor may you turboboost and shoot when you're soulbursting. shoot + shoot is fine so is turboboost + turboboost, even shoot + turboboost is OK, but never turboboost + shoot. Same thing goes for run + shoot.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2017, 08:15:49 PM »
I've found that my scorpions tend to kill off a unit (clean up duty) using their pistols before they can assault. Soulburst would let me try and charge another unit, except I've never had them cornered by two units before. The most useful thing I can think of really is to use soulburst to get back into cover.

Could you kill a unit in the shooting phase, soulburst - move, charge another unit?



Wining a CC and then Soulburst charging, seems to be trade off. Since It means the nearby unit doesn't get a chance to run away (kind of handy if they have jetpacks, etc), removes your opponents bonues for charging you and means your CC unit doesn't have to try and survive another full round of shooting. Down side, no hammer, no charge bonus, so I guess you got to decide how well they'll survive the next round of combat, Banshee's vs guard hell yeah, banshee's vs Marines... hmmm






Offline haunt

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2017, 09:29:35 PM »
Now, here's a question for that... multi charge and wiping out one of the units you charged. Would this mean you get to attack the other unit again?
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2017, 12:26:07 AM »
Now, here's a question for that... multi charge and wiping out one of the units you charged. Would this mean you get to attack the other unit again?
The rule gives a very specific list of actions you can do.  If it is not listed there, then it can not be done.
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Offline Alienscar

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #15 on: March 3, 2017, 11:30:49 AM »
This FAQ might help with some of the questions regarding Soulburst
« Last Edit: March 3, 2017, 11:34:44 AM by Alienscar »
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #16 on: April 2, 2017, 05:07:03 PM »
So I've had a rethink on my feelings towards the Ynnari after my LGS has played many games with the new rules.

It's really powerful when abused properly, but is HUGELY boring. We normally play 1500 points games, so it can't be totally abused. Larger games, where you can squeak out two detachments of seven MSU units and it's even more cheesy.

The idea is taking lots of 3-man scatter bike packs and knights in a large phalanx. The shear amount of extra shooting you get is insane.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #17 on: April 2, 2017, 11:36:50 PM »
I can attest to the aspect of "when abused properly."  I faced off against the best Eldar player I know running Ynnari and got completely rocked.  As was said, a lot of min-max units.  Dropping in 5 grav-guns to kill a Wraithknight, and then having two units of Warp Spiders open up and decimate the unit that came in... just... wow!
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #18 on: April 3, 2017, 06:46:05 AM »
Yeah my initial misgivings seem to be finding purchase, at least with how the new rules interact with the Craftworld codex. Watched Lawrence from TTT talking about it and was quite depressed by it.

I think it should have been handled on a unit by by unit basis... or even have the units lumped into certain categories like assault, shooting, whatever... and they get a special soulburst action based on their unit type.

I think they were trying to do something simple and streamlined since the game is reaching ridiculous levels of complexity... but I think it was too much personally.

They could have just introduced the unified Ynarri warhost, with the Yncarne getting those cool soulburst actions and that would have been fine.

DE + Harlies really needed a boost, but that could have been addressed in 8th edition with new power from pain chart, or making assaults easier. It'll be interesting to see what sticks as the edition changes over... if the Shadow War leaks are any hint the nerf bat is certainly coming and will make Soulburst (if it survives the edition change) less overwhelming when paired with a CW army
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Soulburst
« Reply #19 on: April 3, 2017, 07:52:22 AM »
Essentially, what they were trying to achieve, I feel, was to reflect the hit and run surgical strike nature of the Eldar by adapting an element of the Epic Armageddon rules for the Eldar to 40K.  The trouble is that 40K has a lot more potentially overpowered and abusive combinations and exploits, hence why it's a problematic rule.
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