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Author Topic: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]  (Read 5327 times)

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Offline Abraxas

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Alright, everyone knows that the War in Iraq is vastly unpopular (putting it mildly), internationally speaking. Across the US, americans are polarized accross party lines, invoking the two "power lines" of either party; "cutting and running" or "staying the course".

At this point we know the mistakes and, retrospectively, is one of the biggest mistakes America has made in a long time. We can't change anything because we are in there now with no clear direction for the future.

What I propose to this board is give possible plans of exodus. How do you propose we pull out 100,000 troops over a safe amount of time? How slow do we need to go to avoid a complete collapse of their governamnt? Is there a viable plan for us to phase out our involvement?

We know we can't fight terror, so don't bother saying it. We know Bush was a little mistaken (I am trying to keep this non-biased) when he claimed Iraq had WMDs so don't say that either. I don't want critcizm, I want viable solutions.

What I want the replies to be are constructive plans for pull out.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 10:23:32 AM by Nubis »
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Offline Heretek

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2006, 04:07:39 AM »
I'm not sure pulling out would collapse the government system, it would probably ease the tension somewhat, most of the attacks that are carried out are because the US won't leave. I reckon they should get out as quickly as possible.

Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 04:13:01 AM »
Well, we can leave Delta Force guys in there for training, and stop the police work. Also, we can pull the private businesses out, unless they wanna stay without military support. The supposed only reason we are staying there is "to help them train a force to govern themselves". That's what the delta force guys are for. And you don't need a lot of them. Four delta force guys can train upwards of 2000 troops in a few weeks.

If I'm saying the wrong guys, please correct me. It's quarter past 4am, and I think it's delta force, but it could be one of the beret toting peoples.  :-[

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Offline alienspokinatcha

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 04:27:49 AM »
Your dreaming archon, number one thats impossible quota.

Also the insurgency is highly capabale of infiltrating the new recruits to shoot the delta force guys in the back , BAM!

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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 07:34:10 AM »
Nothing any time soon. You now have to fix the mess caused by Bush so you have to leave the troops there till Iraq settles down. If it takes 5 years then good. IF it takes 10 then thats the time you have to stay there. You owe it to the 100,000 people murdered for no real reason.

Tragic but it has to be done. It's not war on terror, its war on instability.

Personally i think Iraq will fragment. And you would get a new palestine. Each side pissed off at the other for having resources and arguing and fighting over it. It's going to be a long long time before it settles down to any reasonable level.


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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 09:36:50 AM »
Yes, splitting up the country is how it will likley end, perhaps kind of a federal system. After all, the only reason, why Iraq had been stable, was that Sadam violently oppressed any opposition.

So as an suggestion i would split up the country into federal states and a higher institution. But i am not sure, how the balance of power should be between the federal states, and the above roof institution, but the ressoures should be shared equally with the headcount as important factor (the bigger fraction gets more resources). That way the whole conflicts might settle down, and the US troops might be able to leave sooner.

The other extreme rout would be to simply leave at once, which would mean another dictator, an unstable country and many more death to come.


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Offline Brother Asreus

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 10:13:42 AM »
The US destabilised that region irreparably sadly. They went in hoping to save the country but ended up causing a religious civil war to erupt. While Saddam Hussein was far from perfect, IIRC there was fewer attacks and bombings of temple. Iraq's biggest threat now is not terrorism but religious Jihad. The Shiites and the Sunnis are at each other's throats because of the change of guard. I think the US owes it to the Iraqi people and to themselves to remain until things have been stabilised and the Iraqi people say that they can leave. Iraq has just become another Cyprus. Buckle up boys, it's going to be a long ride. Religious grudges take forever to heal and right now, the US is the only thing keeping that country from tearing itself apart. It's a Catch 22 for the US sadly.


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Offline [dixon]

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 10:23:06 AM »
I propose that I give this thread a topic title so people actually know what the hell it's about.
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Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2006, 03:17:16 PM »
Your dreaming archon, number one thats impossible quota.

Also the insurgency is highly capabale of infiltrating the new recruits to shoot the delta force guys in the back , BAM!



It's not impossible. It's exactly what happened in vietnam. Look it up. Which is exactly why I've been wondering how the hell it's taking so long to raise a security force there, especially with so many ex-military citizens there. Mind you, Delta Force had a harder job in 'Nam. They didn't have anywhere near as much money or support as they do now.

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Offline Ollieb

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2006, 03:38:34 PM »
We aren't pulling out anytime soon.  Haven't you guys heard, the only reason the US went in there is to steal all the oil and we haven't even begun to pump Iraq dry. 
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Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2006, 03:44:49 PM »
We aren't pulling out anytime soon.  Haven't you guys heard, the only reason the US went in there is to steal all the oil and we haven't even begun to pump Iraq dry. 

Hardy har har. Although I admit it's like we got the girl pregnant. We can't really go, but we put too much commitment in there to begin with. I'm not saying we shouldn't have helped, but we took over pretty much all of the responsibility for that country, which was bad. Throw some money and food and pre-built bridges or whatever, but don't get in as deep as we are now.

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Offline Kritik

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2006, 03:47:38 PM »
History has taught us one thing: Most revolutions end up with a more radical regime. Yes we have killed thousands of U.S. Troops and tens of thousands of others, but leaving without stability within the country is almost ensuring the pointlessness of all those death.
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Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2006, 04:10:33 PM »
Metaphor time.

You have an alchoholic friend. One night, he calls you and says "I got drunk at the bar, come get me." Sure, he's your friend, so you'll go get him. It's your kid's birthday party, and your buddy gets smashed in front of everyone, embarrassing you. It's ok, his wife left him, or whatever. He just needs some time. He asks you to spot him some money, because he got tipsy at the casino, and gambled away the life savings you gave him to invest in that new internet company.

Get where I'm going with this? There's helping, and then there's coddling.

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Offline Abraxas

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2006, 04:13:37 PM »
I propose that I give this thread a topic title so people actually know what the hell it's about.

Well thanks for that.  ;)

Also, we can pull the private businesses out, unless they wanna stay without military support.

That is quite impossible. Too many contracts have been signed that promise X number of years of support for $X millions. Granted, some of these contractors have become victim to corruption... but that is inevitable when you have the circulation of sooooo much money (just look at the relief effort after Hurricane Katrina).

Nothing any time soon. You now have to fix the mess caused by Bush so you have to leave the troops there till Iraq settles down. If it takes 5 years then good. IF it takes 10 then thats the time you have to stay there. You owe it to the 100,000 people murdered for no real reason.

Will it settle down? Peacefully? Over time will the insurgency lose momentum?

Personally i think Iraq will fragment. And you would get a new palestine. Each side pissed off at the other for having resources and arguing and fighting over it. It's going to be a long long time before it settles down to any reasonable level.

This seams to be the most feasible. However, a Delaware Senator (Joe Biden) has suggested this but was ridiculed for the decision. Apparently this has already been tried and failed miserably. I haven't seen any data backing this up, but I also haven't done a great deal of research.

Yes, splitting up the country is how it will likley end, perhaps kind of a federal system. After all, the only reason, why Iraq had been stable, was that Sadam violently oppressed any opposition.

So as an suggestion i would split up the country into federal states and a higher institution. But i am not sure, how the balance of power should be between the federal states, and the above roof institution, but the ressoures should be shared equally with the headcount as important factor (the bigger fraction gets more resources). That way the whole conflicts might settle down, and the US troops might be able to leave sooner.

Much like the US started under the Articles of Confederation? Basically, the 13 colonies were mostly autonomous, each given a governor and unicameral (is that the word?) house of government. Then, at the top, was Congress, which actually had very little national authority. They could declare war and negotiate trade with other countries... but that was about it.

It's not impossible. It's exactly what happened in vietnam. Look it up. Which is exactly why I've been wondering how the hell it's taking so long to raise a security force there, especially with so many ex-military citizens there. Mind you, Delta Force had a harder job in 'Nam. They didn't have anywhere near as much money or support as they do now.

As the republicans have been telling us... this is not Vietnam.  ::)

The war (I believe) is much like Vietnam. It is the reconstruction that is different. We are dealing with a far more diverse group of people that hold religion in a much higher tear of their society than the Vietnamese do, in my opinion.

We aren't pulling out anytime soon.  Haven't you guys heard, the only reason the US went in there is to steal all the oil and we haven't even begun to pump Iraq dry.  

Touché.

If the US government can handpick who is in charge (which in some parts of their ministry, the US can), then any future contracts and agreements will certainly be a little more biased. The US will not so blatantly start signing oil contracts now because everyone is waiting for them. They will wait a little.

Metaphor time.

You have an alchoholic friend. One night, he calls you and says "I got drunk at the bar, come get me." Sure, he's your friend, so you'll go get him. It's your kid's birthday party, and your buddy gets smashed in front of everyone, embarrassing you. It's ok, his wife left him, or whatever. He just needs some time. He asks you to spot him some money, because he got tipsy at the casino, and gambled away the life savings you gave him to invest in that new internet company.

Get where I'm going with this? There's helping, and then there's coddling.

No. I don't get where you are going. What is the US doing, helping or coddling? If that metaphor were true you would have to be responcible for giving him all of that alcohol... after all, it was the US invasion that distabalized the country in the first place... now we have to fix it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 06:19:09 PM by Abraxas »
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2006, 04:45:04 PM »
Metaphor time.

You have an alchoholic friend. One night, he calls you and says "I got drunk at the bar, come get me." Sure, he's your friend, so you'll go get him. It's your kid's birthday party, and your buddy gets smashed in front of everyone, embarrassing you. It's ok, his wife left him, or whatever. He just needs some time. He asks you to spot him some money, because he got tipsy at the casino, and gambled away the life savings you gave him to invest in that new internet company.

Get where I'm going with this? There's helping, and then there's coddling.

Well the metaphor would be that if you change the fact that his wife ran away with you and then you sold him all the alcohol... Remember Saddam and his weapons were a US "creation". A pet dictator that went crazy (as they all do)


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Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2006, 07:57:57 PM »
Get where I'm going with this? There's helping, and then there's coddling.

Ok ok, new metaphor.

There's a guy who's the headmaster of a school.  You don't much like him, so you replace him with someone that shares your views.  This new guy says he needs a bit of help, and you don't want other schools in the area doing better so you give him some better teachers so that he can do a good job.  Then he starts getting crazy, and using the teachers to bully a minority in the school while the rest of the school are taught well.  This annoys you, so you go in and you smash up the classrooms until the teachers and headmaster stop.

This is the stage Iraq is at: though Saddam was abhorrent towards his countries minorities, there WAS in infrastructure.  There WAS a power grid.  The WAS water.  There WERE hospitals, police forces and fire services.  The US shock and awe tactics, which were aided by the actions of Brits and other nations forces that were present, destroyed or crippled these.  If you pull out now, it's like forcing your friend to drink the alcohol but not driving him home in the morning.

Oh, and you're right you shouldn't coddle them: that the US is using non-Iraqi contracters to conduct the repair work is putting the highly skilled Iraqi builders and electricians out of work and out of pocket.
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Offline Abraxas

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2006, 09:10:41 PM »
Ok ok, new metaphor.

OK... let's just stop with the metaphors. They can get pretty confusing sometimes.  :P

Oh, and you're right you shouldn't coddle them: that the US is using non-Iraqi contracters to conduct the repair work is putting the highly skilled Iraqi builders and electricians out of work and out of pocket.

But then Bush couldn't pay back all of the people that put him in office in the first place. If hurricane Katrina weren't an act of nature... I would blame that on Bush too.

Too many republican contractors are benefiting from the reconstruction. I hate to be cliché, but Halliburton suddenly has a war in which to market their APCs to now... plus, they can now sign piping contracts with middle east countries.
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Offline DUDEMAESTRO

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2006, 10:44:28 PM »
I say we pull the media out, and let our boys do their jobs.

You guys really are an interesting bunch... lets cap off what has gone on so far shall we.

1) al-Zarqawi is dead. (Good day for all, I even had cake that day). In his hut we find documents of him lamenting over the training the Iraqi security force is getting. And how hard it is making his existence as a professional amphetamine parakeet disturber.   

2) There have been none of the “promised” major terrorist attacks in the US.

3) Over 500 chemical weapons, mostly mustard gas derivatives and Sarin gas have been discovered in Iraq since 2003. Now maybe I'm wrong but aren't 500+ artillery shells full of fatal/highly toxic chemicals a WMD? Course Saddam said he got rid of all these, remember? I believe we did go in to find this type of stuff.

4) There is just as much evidence that all of Sadam’s big weapons were moved to Syria (with help from buddies in Russia and France and China) before the American attack, as there is that “America went to war for oil”. As a matter of fact a top Iraqi General, Georges Sada, has testified to this fact.

5) The nations with the biggest problems with the US “disrupting” Iraq (I.E. France, China & Russia) were the ones making the most money doing arms trades to Iraq through The UN’s own scandal ridden Oil-for-food program.

6) Civilian insurgents are being held legally in Gitmo for shooting at US troops. If they wanted to have protection under the Geneva convention they should have joined a real military unit, that way (upon capture) they could have given, Name, rank, serial number. But they did not, so the cannot claim protection under these articles. And its good because every day these goat hearding militants sit in Gitmo going through the horror of getting “de-panst” is one less day they can shoot at US Marines.

7) More people showed up to vote in Iraq per capita (even though criminal insurgents threatened them with death) then show up for elections in the US (Sans being threatened with death).

But its just so “neeto” and “hip” to be Anti US that we could never mention hard facts.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 11:09:04 PM by DUDEMAESTRO »
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Offline Abraxas

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2006, 11:59:06 PM »
Alright... 7 points to quote and comment on...

1) al-Zarqawi is dead. (Good day for all, I even had cake that day). In his hut we find documents of him lamenting over the training the Iraqi security force is getting. And how hard it is making his existence as a professional amphetamine parakeet disturber.

We have discussed this. The death of Zarqauwi will change nothing. The attacks still continue in Iraq... Hell, they have even replaced him already.
   
2) There have been none of the “promised” major terrorist attacks in the US.

True... but they are still blowing up american troops with great persistence. It is easier to fight the troops on their turf then get caught trying to blow up something here. Sure, it may not send the same message, but killing troops in Bahgdad still sends a message.

3) Over 500 chemical weapons, mostly mustard gas derivatives and Sarin gas have been discovered in Iraq since 2003. Now maybe I'm wrong but aren't 500+ artillery shells full of fatal/highly toxic chemicals a WMD? Course Saddam said he got rid of all these, remember? I believe we did go in to find this type of stuff.

Do more research. All of the chemicals that were found were pre-91'. All of these weapons were also included in all reports from the Weapons Inspectors sent by the UN. For all intents and purposes, we already knew about these weapons.

4) There is just as much evidence that all of Sadam’s big weapons were moved to Syria (with help from buddies in Russia and France and China) before the American attack, as there is that “America went to war for oil”. As a matter of fact a top Iraqi General, Georges Sada, has testified to this fact.

I haven't even seen this on FOXnews... so I can't put a lot of faith in this statement. Aside from conjecture, this is meaningless.

5) The nations with the biggest problems with the US “disrupting” Iraq (I.E. France, China & Russia) were the ones making the most money doing arms trades to Iraq through The UN’s own scandal ridden Oil-for-food program.

The US traded weapons as well.

6) Civilian insurgents are being held legally in Gitmo for shooting at US troops. If they wanted to have protection under the Geneva convention they should have joined a real military unit, that way (upon capture) they could have given, Name, rank, serial number. But they did not, so the cannot claim protection under these articles. And its good because every day these goat hearding militants sit in Gitmo going through the horror of getting “de-panst” is one less day they can shoot at US Marines.

They do not deserve rights under the Geneva convention. What they deserve are speedy trials (as promised by the democratic form of government we are shoving down their throats in Iraq), not drawn out sentances... END OF STORY.

7) More people showed up to vote in Iraq per capita (even though criminal insurgents threatened them with death) then show up for elections in the US (Sans being threatened with death).

I can explain that. Americans are lazy. Too many have lost faith in our government to work.

But its just so “neeto” and “hip” to be Anti US that we could never mention hard facts.

I didn't know Bill O'Reilly was a part of this board. Tell me, is the liberal media responcible for the IEDs as well?
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Offline Heretek

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Re: Well, what do you propose we do now?[Pulling US Troops out of Iraq]
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2006, 12:14:24 AM »
But its just so “neeto” and “hip” to be Anti US that we could never mention hard facts.
Well there's a self-righteous statement and a half, obviously I can't have anti-US feeling because I disagree with their actions, it must be because I want to be cool. Perhaps I object to the American treatment of prisoners, I assume you saw those photos, how's that for hard facts?
4) There is just as much evidence that all of Saddam’s big weapons were moved to Syria (with help from buddies in Russia and France and China) before the American attack, as there is that “America went to war for oil”. As a matter of fact a top Iraqi General, Georges Sada, has testified to this fact.
Where is this evidence, show me one scrap of information that shows that?
I say we pull the media out, and let our boys do their jobs.
Yes obviously we should get rid of the only way we can get unbiased information out of Iraq, remember the American journalist who got arrested for taking pictures of the American dead because the government didn't want the American people to know how many men were dying? The media are the people who get us the pictures of American and British troops beating Iraqi prisoners and expose them to the world (when the soldiers don't take the pictures themselves).

 


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