Topic: Close Combat - is it worth it?

[SeekingOne]

Hi All!

So, as the subject suggests - now that we have a new codex, what do you people think of our close combat specialists, taking into account the updated costs and rules?

I'm asking in hope to initiate some meaningful discussion on the topic, but also because it's a matter of personal interest to me As a long-time Saim-Hann player, I'm trying to figure out whether it's at all possible to build an (at least moderately) strong and competitive list based solely on Saim-Hann attribute. And since that attribute obviously seems to favour melee-oriented units, the question of viability of melee specialists in our new codex becomes very important. To me, however, there's an even more important question - that of viability of close combat in general.

So, what's the purpose of melee in 8th edition? How is it different from shooting and is that difference truly meaningful? In other words, can melee units accomplish anything that ranged units can't?

For example, in the past editions there was a fundamental difference between melee and shooting: once two units got locked in close combat, they stayed locked until one of them (usually the weaker one) was destroyed. For beaten units there was also a special way of taking morale checks, failing which a unit could flee and get instantly destroyed. This mechanic created unique possibilities of completely locking out an enemy shooty unit, securely "hiding" your own unit from shooting by charging it in combat and even, provided your fighters are sufficiently strong, instantly destroying a charged unit. Neither of those things (at least in most cases) could be accomplished by shooting.

In 8th everything has changed, and the difference between melee and shooting is blurred. Combat is no longer permanent, and morale checks are universal for everything. Basically, melee seems to be just another way of dealing damage to enemy units, and while you can prevent an enemy ranged unit from firing for a turn, it doesn't feel like a great achievement - especially since you don't even need melee specialists for that, as it can be easily done by vehicles.

In fact, one can almost say that there's long-range combat that happens at ranges of 36" and more, mid-range combat at 18"-24", close-range combat at  6"-12", and then there's also ultra-close-range combat at 1". It can also be said that getting within 1" of the enemy is considerably more difficult compared to other 'types' of combat, and being that close to the enemy position is extremely hazardous for any unit. So, what's the pay-off that we get for those additional risks?

General questions aside, our two most "classic" melee units - Banshees and Scorpions - look a bit questionable to me, and I'd love to hear your opinion on them. My main concern is not whether they are good enough for their cost, it's their specialisation. Thing is, both units seem to be specifically suited to killing infantry, and killing infantry is just what our Troops units are also perfectly suited to doing with their ranged weapons. And since we have to take multiple Troops if want to get some extra CP, after filling the compulsory Troops slots with some DAs I find it really hard to justify also taking Shees or Scorps, because they'd essentially want to go after the same targets that are already covered by DAs.

Shining Spears are a unit that I know literally nothing about. On paper it looks fairly durable for its points, but their modest 2A per model leave me wondering whether they are actually good or not.

Thoughts?

[Partninja]

Some notes on shining spears. They have quite a long threat range, more so with quicken. Banshees can also move pretty far and fast now and Scorpions can pop up right next to their target by default. They also have a bit more toughness since they're on a jetbike, plus their special invulnerable save. They also have multiple wounds. Don't only focus in their meager number of attacks. Don't forget they also have twin-catapults and lances they can fire before they charge. This adds damage. They can also threaten some tougher targets the Banshees and Scorpions can't although you could deep strike some Dragons or Wraithguard for the same effect.

A lot of it going to come down to style points. If you're trying to be super competitive you really only have a few options. If you're going for theme and style everything can work.

I think we need the math-hammer guys to list the data points comparing the melee units to common ranged units.

[Fenris]

How can you be a Saim-Hann player and not know about shining spears?

They have been bad/overcosted for several editions, but now I think they are one of the 5 best units in entire codex IMO, maybe even top 3.

They are fast, resilient, good in both short range shooting and CC, and their power synergises very well with 8th ed.

I mean 5 shots each, better than powerfists first round of CC, and if someone falls back from CC with them, they WILL charge again unless you kill them, but they are harder to shoot down than to kill in CC, and due to the pure speed of them it's 9/10 times the shining spears who makes the charge, so they not only hit hard, but first as well.

As for the Banshees and the scorpions, their roles are a bit here and there and not as focused as before, banshees are still good against MEQ, but they need to go against the shooty ones now, especially with how their masks works now. They are not as fast as shining spears, but with a warlock with quicken they still make turn 1 charges.

Scorpions are more attuned to hit things with (only) invulnerable saves, such as necron wraiths, harlequins and deamons, this partly due to their mandiblasters, but also due to no AP modifiers like the banshees rely on, which would be useless against invulnerable saves anyway.

Bansees should however not operate alone, they need another unit to support them to become really worthwhile, but just a small unit of storm guardians will usually be enough, and it's quite nice for the stormies to have the banshees neuter any overwatch shots.

My general experience of melee in 8th ed is however that shooting is still king, since you can't really do much damage in CC, but CC can still block units for grabbing objectives or ever push the opponent back, potentially lock them up in a corner of the board.
Everything is faster and more durable though, so it's more of a pinball game.

[Saim-Dann]

G'day SeekingOne!
As a fellow Saim-Hann player myself, am excited about combat in 8th. With the speed and opportunity of approaching from different directions due to webway assault, deep/cloud strike, it will become a lot easier to surround our opponents in melee.

Not being able to move through other units, this gives us the opportunity to pin the enemy, (except flyers), more than most other armies. Plus when they do leave combat, they can no longer fire. So now the strategy isn't just to wipe out a unit but to stop a dangerous shooty unit from firing. Devastators for example... Be well!       

[magenb]

You need to pick your CC targets carefully now, while you can't lock them up for an entire game, you can shut something up for a turn or block a path such as stopping a tank from getting into firing position.

Spears... spears are to poster boys for CWE. The changes to Twin instead of twin-link and adding in split fire means these guys are the master of drive by shooting.

In close combat, sure they only get 2 swings.. but Reapers only get two shots, but the Spears hit harder and have better AP and still do multiple points of damage. Spears are troops killers as most things don't get an armour save, but can hit tanks or MC.

Then there is the point cost... Someone royally messed up here, Windriders and Spears are the same base cost, so invul saves for free lol. On top of that, a Spear is only a minor increase in points compared to a Scat/Cannon bike. Also don't forget the Exarch you get with Spears as well. Considering how much extra damage the spears put out, why would you bother with windriders at all. At least when windriders were troops they were not directly competing for the fast attack slot.




It really feels like they spent so much time trying to come up with idea's for all the other craftworlds they kind of forget about Saim-Hann and had to rush something in. Either that or they completely forgot that they are the outlaw biker gang of CWE.

[TheEldarGuy]

Banshees have a couple of advantages - as a for instance: Being able to charge an opponent 15" away. Everyone else is limited to 12", sure, the squad only needs 1" from the opponent to lock it into combat, but that 12" rule still applies to everyone else.
War Shout is also quite nice.

Close Combat is a rule of battle now, not just a side effect that only a handful of armies entertained. The few games I've recently played have highlighted how battles have become close range. I think the new 'Long Range'  starts at 18", with medium being 9" to 18". Emphasis on keeping a 9" bubble to avoid Deep Striking and Infiltrating units.

I know my Defenders have been shooting at more units with their cats now more than ever before.

A full squad of Banshees remove 3 MEQs in the Fight Phase or 6 GEQ. Their ordinary saves still mean that they prefer being the first strikers in the Fight Phase (Scorps have a little more resilience - and they get to use their Mandiblasters at the beginning of each Fight).

I have been a Shining Spears user for a while (like about a decade or so), and the new Flyer category, is great. They charge Flyers, they move out of combat and can shoot, they hit from a good distance and with solid force. Their drawback is that they lack the volume of attacks that other CC oriented units possess. However, target them against the right enemy, and wounds melt away ( a Bright Lance or two to soften up, and followed by a good charge from Spears, most 12 to 15 W models will be neutralised at worst. The Shining Spears are the definition of modern Heavy Cavalry, and that's what they do best (16" move, shoot,then charge or 22" and shoot).

The aELDARi still rock when it comes to Close Combat, and CC has never been easier. It wasn't too far back, that players were lamenting Assaults were too hard to get into.

[Fenris]

HammerTime

10x Scorpions with claw
vs MEQ in cover:
Shooting: Claw (0,37) + Grenade(0,49) + pistols(1,48) = 2,34
Melee: Mandiblasters(1,67) + Chainswords(2,5) + Claw(1,85) = 6,02
Total = 8,36 kills

10x Banshees with Executioner
vs MEQ:
Shooting = 1,67
Melee: Executioner (0,83) + Powerswords (3,33) = 4,17
Total = 5,83 kills

9x Shining Spears with starlance
vs MEQ
Shooting: Starlance (0,56) + Lances (3,56) + Shurikens (6) = 10,11
Melee: Starlance (1,67) +  Lances (7,11) = 8,78
Total: 19 kills

Shining Spears and Striking scorpions,do however suffer overwatch and is easier hit in combat.

Overwatch from 10 bolter MEQ would kill 0.74 scorpions, so say one, which would reduce their kills by 0.67 and become 7.69 MEQ kills.

Shining spears cost about the double amount so will receive double overwatch 1,48 wounds, killing 1 model too, reducing their kills by 2,08 to about 17 MEQ kills.

The banshees DO become harder to hit, but with their inferior armour I think that's almost a wash.
Shining spears wins with ease and that's without taking the damage of their weapons into account against bigger foes.
Interesting enough is that the shining spears inflictmore wounds from shooting than Melee.

if you want please doublecheck my numbers, I may be a bit off.

[Partninja]

It might be better to compare a similar amount of points of spears to Banshees and Scorpions. Maybe 5 Spears instead 9.

[Fenris]

Sure, why not

5x Shining Spears with starlance
vs MEQ
Shooting: Starlance (0,56) + Lances (1,78) + Shurikens (3,33) = 5,67
Melee: Starlance (1,67) +  Lances (3,56) = 5,22
Total: 10,89 kills

[volatilegaz]

I agree that the difference between shooting & assault have become blurred, but there are still a few distinct pros & cons:

Pros
protects unit from shooting while locked
stops opponent from shooting while locked
able to do damage in opponents turn as well as yours

Cons
Lower & less predictable threat range (though the S-H attribute helps a lot here)
able to take damage in your turn as well as opponents
overwatch
Can't choose your target once locked

It's certainly true that you can get a lot of the pros and mitigate a lot of the cons by just charging your waveserpents every turn, but I'd say there is still a role for close combat specialists, based purely on damage output:


For the below, I looked at points per wound caused in a single round of shooting + assault. All units are without any optional upgrades (other than the free exarch)

vs MEQ
10 x Defenders: 0.047 pts/wound
5 x Banshees:   0.043
5 x Scorpions:  0.040
10 x Storms:    0.036
5 x Avengers:   0.033
5 x Reapers:    0.026

vs GEQ
10 x Defenders: 0.111 pts/wound
10 x Storms:    0.090
5 x Scorpions:  0.082
5 x Banshees:   0.082
5 x Avengers:   0.078
5 x Reapers:    0.044


If you were to exclude the assault damage from the 3 shooty units, on the basis that you wouldn't charge with them in most situations, those numbers change to:

vs MEQ
5 x Banshees:   0.043
5 x Scorpions:  0.040
10 x Defenders: 0.038
10 x Storms:    0.036
5 x Avengers:   0.025
5 x Reapers:    0.023

vs GEQ
10 x Storms:    0.090
10 x Defenders: 0.083
5 x Scorpions:  0.082
5 x Banshees:   0.082
5 x Avengers:   0.056
5 x Reapers:    0.034




So our assault units more than hold their own in terms of damage efficiency, plus of course they'll be doing more damage in your opponents next turn too (and also: defenders are awesome)

Note: the above doesn't factor in other things you're paying points for like speed, survivability and weapon range. Too many variables for my tiny brain.

[Cavalier]

I've found incredible value with Eldar close-combat going all the way back to 6th and 7th. Their's a disruption factor that cannot be underestimated and the pressure it takes off critical shooting units is of massive importance. It forces your opponent to react, make mistakes, helps to establish board control, slip past screens and take out characters without the need of snipers and takes pressure off your shooting units in terms of target priority.

Plus being able to go out and meet CC threats you cant take down in shooting is huge. When some big scary unit like Wraiths, TH/SS Terminators, Lychguard, Chaos Terminators etc. I'll just ignore them in the shooting phase and then laughing throw a unit of Wyches at them and problem solved. So many times I've seen these tooled up shooting armies just fold, because they have literally nothing that can slow down some monster CC unit.

I've done it myself many times where I just roll down a gunline with just a couple dedicated CC units and a nice HQ and because my opponent has nothing that can intercept or just block me with it just turns into a slaughter.

EDIT: I'm about to go on a long series of games using Eldar CC, so I'll report in from time to time on how I've done. I'm playing against some pretty damn serious armies (lots of IG). I've had tremendous success with Wyches and Incubi who will be shelved for the time being to try out my other units. Wyches, Incubi and a single unit of D-Scythes have been a three headed monster, triple MVPs all edition. I'm excited to see if the classic Eldar units can replicate that. Especially my beloved Scorpions. So I'll check in here and have bat-reps in my project log

[SeekingOne]

Strangely, my numbers are all different, albeit by just a little In my calculations Banshees are almost identical to Scorps in terms of points per wound - and what is particularly amazing is that they are identical vs both MEQ and GEQ.

One thing that bugs me a little is incorporating shooting damage into a melee unit's performance. Isn't it kind of wrong? My feeling is, just like I wouldn't normally want to charge DAs or Guardians into melee after shooting, I also wouldn't want to shoot pistols before charging, so that my opponent doesn't remove the closest models and make assault more likely to fail. At least I wouldn't want to shoot pistols at the unit that I'm planning to assault unless I'm within like 3-4" from it. This kind of makes me think that pistols will actually be fired maybe 50% of time...? But that's entirely speculative and may be well off mark, as I haven't used a specialised assault squad in years (since 5th edition in fact).

In close combat, sure they only get 2 swings.. but Reapers only get two shots, but the Spears hit harder and have better AP and still do multiple points of damage.

That's a spot on comparison, didn't think of it

Then there is the point cost... Someone royally messed up here, Windriders and Spears are the same base cost, so invul saves for free lol. On top of that, a Spear is only a minor increase in points compared to a Scat/Cannon bike.

Basic Windriders with just twin shuricats are still overpriced - they should be 20 pts max, perhaps closer to 18. Spears are still a bargain - no surprise they are sold out on the GW site, along with rangers.

Also don't forget the Exarch you get with Spears as well. Considering how much extra damage the spears put out, why would you bother with windriders at all. At least when windriders were troops they were not directly competing for the fast attack slot.




It really feels like they spent so much time trying to come up with idea's for all the other craftworlds they kind of forget about Saim-Hann and had to rush something in. Either that or they completely forgot that they are the outlaw biker gang of CWE.

[Iluvhir Strafermeyer]

Me and my regular gaming buddies run into this discussion on a regular basis.
The short version is that CC is generally weaker than shooting when it comes to effectively killing your opponents. The reason being that there is no advantage in terms of damage potential in CC, while there is always the disadvantage of having to get your CC units within range to deliver said killing power.
Ranged weapons generally deal an equal amount of damage (or more) and it's a simple point and click action.

However, things are not that easy in an actual game. CC has one benefit that shooting doesn't have - shutting down entire units without having to actually kill all models. This is still true, even though the old "locking a unit in CC" is gone. An example from personal experience is charging marine Devastators with a wounded unit of Shining Spears. I didn't have enough Spears left to alright slaughter the marines, but because he had to fall back in his turn the Devastators couldn't fire their powerful, expensive weapons. Charging a shooty unit, which is weak in CC, can be used to great effect.

Then there is the threat aspect to consider. A CC unit approaching will definitely draw some attention away from other units. This can be used to your advantage.

CC still has a place, but it's more difficult to pull off effectively. My advice is - if you can out-shoot your opponent, and you don't need CC units for counter-assault then you're better off choosing shooty units.

That being said - if you want to run CC units for whatever reasons, here are my thoughts on some of our CC units:

Shining Spears - used to be cost-ineffective but has always been very versatile. They are fast, since 8th ed they are sort of durable, and they pack a mean punch that can deal with a wide range of threats. Now a 5-man squad costs about as much as 10 Banshees or Scorpions so they have essentially become our best CC unit overall. I like to run an Autarch Skyrunner with 5 Spears for that extra killing power.

Banshees - used to be the go-to unit for dealing with MEQs. Now the choice is not so obvious anymore, but they still get the job done. They are relatively cheap and they are now very fast and easy to get into CC. However, in my experience, they require support. I never take banshees without a serpent to protect them. And they need psychic support to perform (such as Doom or warlock powers like Enervate and Enhance). As long as you recognize that banshees require support, they are quite effective at dealing out death. Their low point cost compensates for the need for support, and they are immune to overwatch, which means you can use them to screen for other units. All and all, I only use them because I love the models. In terms of actual performance, they lose out to Shining Spears in 9/10 cases in my experience.

Scorpions - this used to be our "anti-horde" unit. In 7th ed, they were really good against MEQs too because of the Exarch's hilarious killing power, outclassing Banshees even against marines by a fair margin. Now in 8th, things have changed. Against units with invul saves and poor standard saves, Scorpions out-perform Banshees (mostly because of the mandiblasters). They used to be tankier, but now with the Banshees' -1 to hit them in CC I'm not sure if the Scorpions can be considered tankier (although they can still take more damage from shooting than Banshees). For me, the choice to bring Scorpions instead of Banshees depend on how I want to use them. For pure offense, such as rooting out an enemy gun nest, I would take Scorpions because of their special rule against units in cover. Their ability to "deep strike" can also be used to place them near an isolated objective, where their superior save will better allow them to survive a round of shooting than Banshees. For more defensive play, I would take Banshees. I use them to counter-assault if my opponent manages to charge me where it hurts. Banshees work best when they are supported by other units, whereas Scorpions can operate more independently.

[Fenris]

Regardingshining spears, the easiest fix would be to not let them have any underslung Shurikens, and they would still be a decent choice.

Regarding Scorpions and banshees,maybe the reason the MEQ are in cover does a lot for the scorpions. Shooting scorpion pistols at a unit that is not fully in cover puts the opponent in an very awkward position when removing models.
I also try to avoid longcharges (10" or more), since most units can advance and without penaly fire their pistols, which ensures all pistols are within range.

Let's se how the Scorpions would do against MEQ not in cover:

Shooting: Claw (0,39) + Grenade(0,58) + pistols(1,33) = 2,3
Melee: Mandiblasters(1,67) + Chainswords(2) + Claw(1,30) = 4,97
Total = 7,27 kills

It's still about 1 more kill than the banshees.

[Partninja]

Fenris - what would be your math compared to 10x Avengers, 5x Reapers,  20 guardians, and 5 of each wraithguard. Maybe we should also include 5 Wraithblades (both weapons).

I like volatilegaz' breakdown but like seeing the models killed method.

[SeekingOne]

Shooting: Claw (0,39) + Grenade(0,58) + pistols(1,33) = 2,3
Melee: Mandiblasters(1,67) + Chainswords(2) + Claw(1,30) = 4,97
Total = 7,27 kills

You seem to overestimate Claw on both accounts I'm pretty sure it's 0.33 in shooting and 1.11 in melee (remember it's only ap -3 so MEQ still get 6+ save). With these corrections it totals at 6.61 wounds, giving us 0.043 wounds per point. Whereas 10 banshees with executioner get 5.83 wounds or 0.044 wounds per point - virtually identical performance

The short version is that CC is generally weaker than shooting when it comes to effectively killing your opponents. (...) Ranged weapons generally deal an equal amount of damage (or more) and it's a simple point and click action.

My thoughts exactly...

An example from personal experience is charging marine Devastators with a wounded unit of Shining Spears. I didn't have enough Spears left to alright slaughter the marines, but because he had to fall back in his turn the Devastators couldn't fire their powerful, expensive weapons. Charging a shooty unit, which is weak in CC, can be used to great effect.

Funnily enough, where I play 4 out of 5 SM players run Guilliman-based Ultramarines now, which all get to shoot after falling back due to Chapter Tactics. That said, Devastators in that case still would've been suffering the total of -2 to hit, so the effect is still significant.

CC still has a place, but it's more difficult to pull off effectively. My advice is - if you can out-shoot your opponent, and you don't need CC units for counter-assault then you're better off choosing shooty units.

Again, my thoughts exactly. And in fact there's an issue with counter-assaulting: the very concept of "counter-assault" doesn't seem to be valid any longer. The best way of dealing with enemy melee specialists is still to fall back with whatever is left of the unit they assaulted and then just shoot them up. Assaulting them is counter-productive because, in case you won't finish them at once, they get a chance to fight back.

Besides, I don't think Banshees or Scorpions are strong enough to take on real melee specialists from other armies. I just finished watching a batrep on Tabletop Tactics channel, featuring new Tyranids, and observed 3 packs of Genesteales eating a number of Primaris marines. Well, neither shees nor scorps stand a slightest chance against those. Even if we get to charge, 10 shees/scorps would kill maybe about 3-4 stealers out of 10, and the remaining 6 would still slaughter them in return. Situation with Spears won't be much better due to stealers having 5++.

[Fenris]

@SeekingOne: I included the sustained assault on the claw, but I saw now that it's only in effect in melee, not in shooting. So it should be 0.33 in shooting, but in melee the claw will be swung 3.5 times rather than 3 due to sustained assault. Taking point cost into consideration though, I agree they are almost the same.

@Partninja: You got it, I was just about to do shurikens and reapers anyway.

10x Avengers with Dual catapults
vs MEQ:
Shooting: Exarch (0,67) + Grenade(0,58) ASC (2,67) = 3,92
Melee = 0,81
Total = 4,73 kills

20x Guardians with 2x Shuriken cannons
vs MEQ:
Shooting: Cannons(1,22) + Catapults(6) = 7,22 (6.67 without cannons)
Melee: Platforms (0,037) + Guardians(1,48) = 1,52
Total = 8,64 kills (forgot the grenade)

5x Dark Reapers shooting starswarm missiles
vs MEQ:
Shooting: Exarch (0,79) + Reapers(2,37) = 3,16
Melee = 0,44
Total = 3,6 kills

5x Wraithguards vs MEQ:
Cannons: 2,78 Kills
D-Scythes: 8,33 Kills
Fists: 1,11 Kills

5x Wraithblades vs MEQ (on the charge):
Ghostswords: 7,40 Kills
Ghostaxes: 2,78 Kills

[magenb]

Yeah shooting can make charges more difficult, but also remember you don't have to shoot the unit you are charging either. Since it is situational I do normally keep them separate.


Spears generates roughly the same kills from shooting with 6" as they do from close combat with no upgrades, but you don't want to be that close and not charge.



CWE CC units have been useful in every edition, its just which ones are the most useful changes with the edition.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

A unit combo I have been wanting to try out is Scorpions + Supreme Disdain + Autuarch with the Blades Warlord trait. Combo with Karandars and the Enhance boost...

Get the 10 scorps into CC while within range of the Warlord and Big K. Pop Enhance for +1 to hit on the Scorps. If they are attacking a unit that is in cover, they are now triggering abilities on a 4+.

Karadras gives them an extra attack for every 6 to hit in CC. Now a 4+
Same thing with Supreme Disdain
Ambush of blades, also on a 6, makes them add an additional -1 to their AP.

Expensive maybe, and takes a bit to pull off, but these kinds of combos, to me, feel very Eldar-y

[Iluvhir Strafermeyer]

CC still has a place, but it's more difficult to pull off effectively. My advice is - if you can out-shoot your opponent, and you don't need CC units for counter-assault then you're better off choosing shooty units.

Again, my thoughts exactly. And in fact there's an issue with counter-assaulting: the very concept of "counter-assault" doesn't seem to be valid any longer. The best way of dealing with enemy melee specialists is still to fall back with whatever is left of the unit they assaulted and then just shoot them up. Assaulting them is counter-productive because, in case you won't finish them at once, they get a chance to fight back.

Besides, I don't think Banshees or Scorpions are strong enough to take on real melee specialists from other armies. I just finished watching a batrep on Tabletop Tactics channel, featuring new Tyranids, and observed 3 packs of Genesteales eating a number of Primaris marines. Well, neither shees nor scorps stand a slightest chance against those. Even if we get to charge, 10 shees/scorps would kill maybe about 3-4 stealers out of 10, and the remaining 6 would still slaughter them in return. Situation with Spears won't be much better due to stealers having 5++.

The idea with a counter-assault unit now in 8th is to shut down an enemy unit without having to dedicate all the firepower necessary to completely destroy it (an enemy CC unit can still be a threat to you even if you've managed to thin out their numbers). Say you have a 5-man reaper unit at the back of your line, and your marine opponent manages to charge them with a 5-man Assault unit. Some of your Reapers will survive but the marine squad is unlikely to suffer any casualties from your retaliation in the Fight phase. In your turn, you fall back with the surviving reaper(s). The question now is, how do you handle that marine squad? You have two options, essentially: 1) you take some of your shooty units and just blast them away. Killing 5 marines isn't too hard for an Eldar army. The problem is, you take firepower away from something else to do that. Unless you completely destroy the marines, even one CC marine is enough to go after your remaining reaper(s) from the squad that was charged initially. So you need to actually kill them all. If your opponent is worth his salt, he'll have back-up for those marines. He won't just send them up against your entire army hoping to clear out nothing but a few reapers. Maybe other marine units are closing in, that you have to deal with. Tough choice.
This is where option no 2 comes in: You have a squad of Banshees at the ready. Their whole purpose is to get you out of this mess. You don't have to divert firepower from the rest of the marine army. Even if a marine or two survives the banshees' charge, the marines are now shut down. If they fall back they can't do anything (barring special rules that allow them to fall back and wreck havoc, in which case you have to make sure they are destroyed) and they'll just get charged by the Banshees again and die, and if they stay in melee your ladies will root them out in the next fight phase (your opponent's).

I realize it's not really THAT important to have a dedicated CC unit to take care of such problems, but the advantage of having that CC unit ready is that you know you're only gonna need that one squad of Banshees, nothing more, to handle the issue. If you want to kill the marines with firepower, it's easy to over-commit guns. Will a unit of Dire Avengers be enough? Maybe, but if a single marine survives, the problem remains. Then you have to use another unit to kill the last marine. Because a CC unit generally shuts the target down, the problem with survivors (from bad dice rolls etc) typically becomes a non-issue.

That being said, CC is definitely less powerful in this edition. I generally only ever take ONE dedicated CC unit (choosing between Banshees/Scorps/Spears/Harlequins) and sometimes none. When I do take such a unit, it usually goes like this: I charge from out of a transport (doesn't apply to Spears ofc) and then I completely obliterate the object of their charge, with the help of some nice buffs from psychic powers or powerful characters. After that, the CC unit generally takes a lot of damage from enemy shooting. Usually, some of my CC experts survive, and I use them to harass my opponent by charging and forcing fall backs, shutting down units like Devastators etc.

Shining Spears are trickier because they are vulnerable to fire since you can't protect them with a transport. However, they are also much more versatile and less reliant on numbers to do damage so I think it evens out in the end.
Post Merge: November 10, 2017, 07:17:44 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.I thought I would make it clear that I think CC units have a place in 8th so long as use them properly. If you only use them do deal out damage, you will be disappointed every time, I reckon.
However, if you use them to prevent units from shooting, you can disable an entire enemy unit with relative ease. Locking units in CC is no longer possible, but because there are still several units that can't fall back and shoot/charge, I typically use my CC specialist to charge such units. I don't need to kill all the models, because the damage has already been done.