Topic: Some thoughts on the new Craftworld traits

[SeekingOne]

So, the thing that many Eldar players presumably asked for is finally here - the new system of traits now distinguishes the five classic Craftworlds from each other.

Have to admit, getting used to these new traits proves much harder that it could be expected, at least for yours, truly. So, in order to (hopefully) simplify this process I decided to sit and write down some thoughts on how these traits actually work and what they mean for our armies.

1. First and foremost, there's the Ulthwe trait. It is the single one trait among all five that is truly universal and flexible, giving an identical small benefit to all units in the army (except Hemlocks - but those don't need much extra help anyway ). It's effect is arguably the least significant in terms of power, but it doesn't force or favour literally any choices or options over others, both in list building or tactics.

2. Next come the Biel-Tan, Iyanden and Saim-Hann traits. Though these traits provide very different bonuses and so look quite different on paper, there's still a serious reason for grouping them together. Thing is that they have one very important thing in common: they all favour certain specific types of units, and therefore tend to be tied very closely to the army composition. Iyanden favours large infantry squads and big multi-wound models, Biel-Tan favours Aspects and units with shuriken weaponry, Saim-Hann favours bikes and assault specialists - but in each case if you want a specific trait to provide some good buffs to your force, you have no choice but to capitalise on the corresponding types of units. And that makes the army composition somewhat restricted.

3. Finally, there's Alaitoc trait. It stands very much apart from all other four traits because, unlike the others, the bonus it provides is conditional. On the surface it might seem similar to the previous trio of traits in that it favours units with long-range weaponry. However, when we look deeper into the matter we realise that it's not really so. Sorry if this sounds too trivial, but thing is that any unit, even an assault one, has potential to operate further than 12" from the enemy, because even though you might be within 12" from 1 or 2 enemy units, you can still be over 12" from the other 8-10 ones. It is 100% related to units' positioning and therefore to tactical situation. So it seems justified to say that Alaitoc trait is unique in that, unlike the other four, it encourages tactical play: in order to make the most out of this trait you have to employ smart manoeuvres, initiate flank attacks, split the enemy into isolated pockets, etc. All these tactics are certainly valid and efficient for any army, but Alaitoc trait rewards you for them directly, by making your whole army more survivable.

Thus, in my opinion, the Alaitoc trait is by far the best one of all five, and not just due to being statistically the strongest (which it probably is), but mainly due to the fact that it encourages manoeuvring and tactical play.


As usual, by all means please share your thoughts on the subject. Which traits would you consider best and why?

[Fenris]

I think you mean craftworld attributes, but that aside, I wouldn't group them like that, I think it's more of a scale from Ulthwé to Saim-Hann.

Ulthwé is the most general attribute, followed by Alaitoc, then Biel-Tan before Iyanden and finally Saim-Hann.

I also think the warlord traits, stratagems and relics that are specific to one craftworld or another should not be ignored when comparring their power. While I would rank Alaitoc as the most powerful attribute I think Ulthwé has a clear 2nd place.
On 3rd place I would but Biel-Tan, not because their attribute is greater, but because most lists can take advantage of it, I mean a pure jetbike list would still benefit, with all the shurikens, unless you are running all scatterbikes. 4th would be Saim-Hann due to re-rolling charges is often very good. While the Iyanden attribute is nice, I don't find it gamechanging at all.

Then again Ulthwé has the strongest warlord trait, while Biel-Tan has the best relics and stratagems. Meanwhile Biel-tan has the worst warlord trait and Alaitoc has the worst stratagem IMO.

[The Mattler]

Another thing to remember is that you can choose a different Craftworld attribute for every detachment, so you can accentuate the specialization of various parts of your force.  For example, you could find room for the following in most lists, and in 2000pts you could bring it alongside a Brigade:

Iyanden Battalion
Spiritseer
Spiritseer
20 Guardians
20 Guardians
5 Rangers

Choose Protect/Jinx and Conceal/Reveal for the Spiritseers, and deploy the Rangers to taste, but definitely deploy the Guardians with Webway Strike for 3CP (which their detachment supplies!). The Iyanden attribute forces your opponent to kill them all with negligible losses to morale, and you can further protect them with Celestial Shield, Fire and Fade, and even Feigned Retreat if necessary.  Fantastic return for 470pts.

Doom, Guide, and Fortune have their place too, assuming you wanted a Farseer or two anyway, and are in range.  If you wanted to make the surprise deployment even nastier, replace the Spiritseers with Karandras and Baharroth, then join them with more Hawks, Scorpions, and/or Spiders from the Brigade detachment.  Just make sure you have at least half your units deploying normally, although since the Brigade will most likely be MSU, that shouldn't be an issue.

Considering the massive amount of shuriken weaponry, you could easily use Biel-tan instead, as long as you felt that the retaliation would be minimal (due to terrain, force dispersion,etc.).

*Edited because I just can't see myself running Warlocks on foot when Spiritseers are vastly superior, and removed the shuriken cannons because the Guardians are getting dropped within 12" anyway.*

[MagicJuggler]

It feels rather weird, but the assorted traits almost feel like they work best when used to represent different craftworlds.

For example, Iyanden is a dying Craftworld, yet their "every unit is its own Commissar" trait promotes running large units, making them the Craftworld for if you want to swamp your foe in Guardians. The trait ironically does little for Wraithguard, and nothing for other Wraith-Constructs.

The Alaitoc Trait combos with other hit mods. Sure, you could use it on Rangers, but more fun is had using it on Eldar flyers (like the Hemlock).

Biel-Tan get a ho-hum leadership bonus to Leadership, but their main bonus is that they reroll 1s with Shuriken Weapons. The bad news? Many Eldar Aspect Warriors either lack Shuriken Weapons or only have pistols. The best way to get efficient Shuriken weapons is mass Windriders, Bikers, or Wave Serpents.

Saim-Hann gets to reroll charge distance and their Bikes ignore move penalties for heavy weapons. The bad news is Shuriken Cannons are usually the most efficient option and an Assault Weapon, while most Eldar bikes don't want to be in melee. Thus, the Saim-Hann trait is if you want to ensure melee beatsticks like Wraithblades (or even Scorpions) get stuck in.

And Ulthwe gets a "save after a save" that does not stack with Fortune, Ghosthelms, or anything associated with Farseers.

Sure, Alaitoc is groovy, but it's still jarring that the "minmax" of said chapters flies against the way said chapters supposedly fight.

[magenb]

Ulthwe - is the best all round option, no list tweaking required.

Iyanden - I think this is being under rated, it helps our tanks, WLord, Wknight continue to hit hard and continue to be a threat for much longer, drop in a bonesinger here and you basically have to kill them to shut them up, vs just degrading it down to being useless and moving to the next target.

The Morale bonus is actually very good, if you want to larger packs, which I tend to do.

Biel-tan - It's a handy buff, but who is building a shuriken only list? The random AP value is nice, but it means most of those shots will just bounce of armour. It would have been better if you got -1 AP for normal shots and left then rending. The leadership value is OK, but only works on Aspects, so this seems to suggest you want to run a load of Dire Avengers... meh.

Alaitoc - Sure positioning will help make those long range las shots miss, in a tourney or other fixed list scenario it is rather poor options though. There are just too many armies that want to live in that 12' space any way or they have abilities that will ignore this rule (like reapers).


SAIM-Hann - If you are making an all biker army, super useful other wise meh.


So next army I'll run will be an Ianden force (without wraith contructs lol) I'll bring in a couple of fire prisms

[Cavalier]

I actually like all of them a whole lot. I think the Saim-Hann one is a bit under valued. Keeping your bikes back 36" with Scatter Lasers is super nice. Also you can also spam Vypers to get some nice AT, and they can rock around with their Brightlances, and split firing with underslung Shuriken Cannons all at at full BS.

Plus Saim-Hann Shining Spears are MEAN. Especially with a little psychic support. Saim-Hann Spears with Quicken are pretty much getting a first turn assault on anything on the board. A deepstriking block of 20 Guardians or Scythe-Guard can open a path to anything for them too

EDIT: Just a quick thought, with a Seer Council, Shining Spears, Scatter Laser Jetbikes, Brightlance Vypers you'd actually have a really well balanced army. Sprinkle in some Wraithguard and Guardians via Webway Assault and I really like the blend.

[Blazinghand]

We should also couple Craftworld Attribute with Warlord Traits and Stratagems.

Alaitoc has a really really strong Warlord Trait, that means you don't need to take an Avatar in a footdar list. I also think Alaitoc could run some pretty sweet footdar list since it basically buffs survivability. Being able to run big squads of fearless, hard to hit guardians sounds really sweet. The Stratagem is meh.

The Ulthwé Warlord Trait has actually been pretty solid in my experience, and the Ulthwé Craftworld Attribute is just generally strong. Eldar usually lack in durability, so getting fnp on various units that didn't have it is nice. For our more durable models like Wave Serpents or Wraithlords, Foresight of the Damned is a maddening boost. The Stratagem is cheap and potentially good if you had a max squad of Guardians, though i'm not sure Ulthwé lends itself to running max guardian squads, since unlike Alaitoc and Iyanden it doesn't have some extra way to address Morale.

Biel-Tan's Craftworld Attribute works great if you are running a lot of Dire Avengers, and the Warlord Trait is probably one of the strongest in the game! You'll have to keep your Warlord stuck in with whatever squad he's buffing, but it's quite a buff. I think the Stratagem is potentially very strong as well, though to get full effect you need an Avatar and some assaulty units. I think an army with Asurmen and a lot of Dire Avengers could potentially be quite strong here.

Iyanden, as mentioned, lends itself to a style of Eldar where you have lots of swarmy foot units (Guardians in huge squads, for examples) or tall units like Wraithlords or Fire Prisms who benefit from the better wound profile rules. Combined with the Stratagem which helps Spiritseers, seems like it's a good choice for swarmy footdar with some heavy backup. Of course, swarms of guardians isn't really fluff-accurate for Iyanden so this is best thought of as a ruleset rather than real Iyanden. Warlord trait seems not good.

Saim-Hann I think is underrated. Although Vypers and Scatbikes might not be good even with this, the charge thing isn't restricted to Biker units. Scorpions, who have their own delivery mechanism, could benefit from this, going from making their charge over a quarter of the time to just under half the time when assaulting out of deep strike. Also useful if you webway in a group of Banshees or something, or have units moving and charging from transports. Obviously, also helpful for Shining Spears. The Stratagem is especially important for Shining Spears and vastly improves them (due to the reliability and effectiveness of Jetbike Advance). Not sure how good this warlord trait will be.

[magenb]

EDIT: Just a quick thought, with a Seer Council, Shining Spears, Scatter Laser Jetbikes, Brightlance Vypers you'd actually have a really well balanced army. Sprinkle in some Wraithguard and Guardians via Webway Assault and I really like the blend.

I'm at the tail end of 5th campaign, so I got excited by that idea, unfortunately the seer council has been point costed out of existance. 2 Warlocks on skyrunners is more expensive than a 4 man Spears squad with starlance. It's only slightly less than a Farseer on skyrunner. Their CC damage outp is.. well its very bad now, until you get up to T12 targets the base spears are better.

Seems like single warlocks are the way to go and even then only on foot.

[The Mattler]

Seems like single warlocks are the way to go and even then only on foot.

Yes, the Warlock Conclave is still a dumpster fire, bikes or no bikes.  Spiritseers are probably an even better choice than lone Warlocks to fill HQ tax slots (why is this still a thing?!), since they have the real Smite, and Perils of the Warp can't kill them instantly.  I'm not sold on Spirit Mark's tiny range; sure, you can boost it, but I'd rather spend a few extra points for an Autarch to provide a better buff if that's why I'm taking the character.

[Saim-Dann]

G'day forumites!
The Seer Council is a hoot. However, only on foot. You put a SC behind a 20 maned Defender unit and other key units within psychic range?... Oh my!

[Blazinghand]

It seems to me that the primary advantage of a seer council (over just taking individual warlocks) is that the unit is better for buffing.

For example, we could imagine a setup with:
Setup A
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock

Vs

Setup B
Conclave with 4 Warlocks


Setup B is slightly less expensive, and is half as effective at casting powers. However, it can do things like benefit from powers like Guide, Fortune, Protect, Enhance, etc much more easily. There's no way for 4 individual Warlocks to strengthen themselves all with Protect. But as a Conclave, they're a single unit and can do much more in terms of buffs. You could make a unit that hits on 2+, wounds on 2+, and has a 3++/5+++ save!

Now, I'm not sure if such a use for a Warlock Conclave is actually good, but this is the main reason you'd take a conclave over a bunch of singletons.

[Cavalier]

@Blazinghand- Totally agree with you man. Especially on the Saim-Hann stuff. Saim-Hann Scorpions + Banshees are seriously good and frighteningly fast especially with Quicken. People think running Wyches with Hypex is redundant but I've found it to be absolutely phenomenal for the job I have cut out for them, which is getting into the back lines beating up support characters and small HQ units. Same thing with the Scorpions + Banshees. That ridiculous amount of reach means you can shoot gaps through screening units (after punching holes in them, or just small gaps left by your opponent) and choose whatever juicy bits you want to tear apart beyond them, instead of just making contact. You could eat up vital buffing units like Company Commanders + their Command Squads, Primaris Psykers, some lone Librarians, or of course classic choices like Devastators, Heavy Weapon Teams, Havocs etc. Using Webway Strike, Spears, Banshees and Scorpions can make some really clutch early turn deepstrikes and rip out major impediments to your army right away. Some deepstriking Hawks or Spiders can also help clear the way without using up valuable CP's on Webway Strike. Anyway great post Blazinghand, really dig your ideas.

@Magenb- I dont really think they are that expensive. But when I say a "Council" I meant running individual Warlocks in a Supreme Command Detachment. I'd run about 4 of them and call it a day. I wouldn't sacrifice the "character" keyword for just about anything on these guys. They can stay behind a wave of Shining Spears and Wave Serpents etc and buff away. The foot Warlocks are great, and I plan on running them for backfield assistance.. but I have every intention of getting 3 or 4 on bikes to run alongside my forward moving assault elements. The benefits, versatility and range are incredible for Skyrunners. Worth every penny as far as I'm concerned.

[magenb]

@Magenb- I dont really think they are that expensive. But when I say a "Council" I meant running individual Warlocks in a Supreme Command Detachment. I'd run about 4 of them and call it a day. I wouldn't sacrifice the "character" keyword for just about anything on these guys. They can stay behind a wave of Shining Spears and Wave Serpents etc and buff away. The foot Warlocks are great, and I plan on running them for backfield assistance.. but I have every intention of getting 3 or 4 on bikes to run alongside my forward moving assault elements. The benefits, versatility and range are incredible for Skyrunners. Worth every penny as far as I'm concerned.

Warlocks have taken a serious hit compared to previous editions, while expensive in the passed seer council on jetbikes were solid anti-dread's and anti-tank. Now they are all about the buffs and the buffs they hand out are really not worth the points when you pop them on a jetbike. Kind of a kick in the face since they are $56 AUD a model lol.

Warlock on foot, this is where things start to get interesting. Empower on a full unit of banshee's is super nasty, but even if it made the charge, the warlock itself is really not adding much to that fight as their damage output is terrible. So really he stands on the Wave Serpent ramp, gives them a buff and then waves them good bye, especially if it gives them quicken lol.

Now point optimisation...
1 full unit of banshees (exarch no upgrades) with Empower warlock will trash 5.8 marines with embolden active - To get empower to work its a ~58% chance to work, possible command point to re-roll and there is still the possibility of the enemy denying it.

2 six man banshee squads both with Exarch but only 1 executioner kills 5.09 marines on average and for slightly less points.


It is a bit harder to work out the value of Conceal, embolden, Protect and quicken, just due to the nature of what they do, but you are looking at 42-58% chance of it going off with a warlock.


If you need to throw something in to fill up a HQ slot, sure why not, but I wouldn't be building a list around them.


Saim-hann lists feel off as they don't have a biker troop option. Maybe they should have put "Guardian Jetbikes" back in.







On a side note, anyone been considering multiple craftworlds coming to the fight. Illic+ranges as an Alaitoc patrol detachment sounds like it could play well with other craftworlds and feels rather fluffy.

[Blazinghand]

Having an entirely separate detachment from another Craftworld can be a good idea, from a strategic perspective. For example, if you were running an Ulthwe army with an Air Wing detachment with 3 Hemlocks, these Hemlocks would get nothing from Ulthwe because the abilities don't stack. So, you could paint them a different scheme and have them be Alaitoc or something. I don't know if this would really make sense from a fluff perspective, but from the PoV of trying to win a tournament or something, this seems like it would be a good move.

[Partninja]

It seems to me that running multiple detachments is going to be the best all around. Simply so you can choose the best trait for each type of unit. Making some basic lists trying to use the 6CP and 9CP detachments I'm finding many units I would want to take to fill various support roles don't fit well with the main trait. Separate detachments better optimize the units at the cost of extra HQ taxes and usually a 3rd unit of something I needed two of.

[SeekingOne]

On a side note, anyone been considering multiple craftworlds coming to the fight. Illic+ranges as an Alaitoc patrol detachment sounds like it could play well with other craftworlds and feels rather fluffy.

Played in a local tournament this weekend - my first event both with the new codex and in 8th as a whole. Placed 1st Overall (the classic scheme of games + painting score), in terms of game scores being just a couple of points behind the guy who won the Best General.

It was 2250 pts, and I had 4 detachments. The one with scatter-bikes was Saim-Hann, the Super-Heavy Auxiliary with WK was Iyanden, the other two (flyer wing with 3 CHs and battalion with lots of aspects) were Alaitoc. Have to say, the attributes are nothing short of awesome, and the effects of them all proved to be more significant than I expected looking at them on paper.

Scatter-bikes proved to be really good, totally exceeding my expectations and making me a happy Saim-Hann player once more They are not an answer to everything as they were in 7th, but they are a 100% solid value for points now. It seems I just didn't realise how significant the capability to move and fire with no penalty is. Only now I realise that when used with the Index, it always happened so that they didn't have a suitable target in range to fire stationary - so they had to stand still and fire at something they can't really hurt, or go after a softer target but suffer -1 hit penalty, and either way their damage output got crippled. Now however Saim-hann scatter-bikes are solid once again, and they seem to be the best anti-horde we have available.

WK with a Iyanden attribute is... well, don't get me wrong, it's still bad Those of you who played a lot in 7th edition would understand if I say that playing a WK now is the same as playing it in 7th against an SM army with a spam of like 8-10 grav-cannons and failing to roll Invisibility. It just crumbles as soon as it gets targeted with any heavy weapons. But still, fighting at full potential till the last 6 wounds improves it tremendously, giving it an almost full extra turn of good performance - which often is it's only turn too, lol. If you plan to use it, Iyanden is a must.

As for Alaitoc... well, honestly, my first impression is that it's easily the Ynnari level of power, if not higher. It's definitely the right choice if you're going into a highly competitive tournament and expect to fight on top tables against armies full of Primarch/Celestine cheese, but in friendlier games I'll probably stay away from it. The Alaitoc Crimson Hunters are particularly crazy good - believe it or not, I'd actually rate them higher than Hemlocks on the power level scale.

All in all, my updated vision of the Craftworld Attributes is this:

1) Picking a separate attribute for each detachment based on its composition definitely seems the best in terms of optimisation;

2) The most efficient application seems to be the following: Iyanden for big wraith constructs; Saim-hann for scatter-bikes; Alaitoc for everything else IF you seek to maximise power, otherwise Ulthwe or Iyanden would work fine.

3) The strongest single army-wide choice of a CW Attribute would still be Alaitoc. But if you want to keep the things friendlier, I'd say that the other two solid choices are Iyanden and Ulthwe. Iyanden has a stronger overall bonus IMO, but Ulthwe counterbalances it with what seems to be a fantastic Warlord trait (because our stratagems proved to be 100% awesome, and every extra CP is actually worth its weight in gold).

[magenb]

WK with a Iyanden attribute is... well, don't get me wrong, it's still bad It just crumbles as soon as it gets targeted with any heavy weapons.

It a reeeeaaallly expensive fire soak now, but at least you might hit something with it now lol.

The Alaitoc Crimson Hunters are particularly crazy good - believe it or not, I'd actually rate them higher than Hemlocks on the power level scale.

Yeah having long weapon range and speed should mean you can keep them away. Did they still get shot at or did people just try to ignore them? Have you tried CH Exarch with Starcannons since the point changes?

Since SM have had similar option for a while, CWE have Reapers and Spears to try and counter it.

[Blazinghand]

Does Fortune help at all with keeping it going?

[SeekingOne]

Yeah having long weapon range and speed should mean you can keep them away. Did they still get shot at or did people just try to ignore them? Have you tried CH Exarch with Starcannons since the point changes?

They got Smited a lot mostly, but only the Best General's Chaos list (which included both Magnus and Mortarion, as well as 2 DPs and multiple Heralds) had enough smites to actually kill 2 out of 3. And even that happened because I brought them too close in a desperate and totally unwise attempt to fight for the Relic that was being carried away

In other games they were mostly ignored - not the least because for a turn or two my opponents were busy dealing with my Dragons and Spiders that were right in the enemy's face, and then it was already too late. I tabled two Guilliman-driven parking lots that way.

No Exarch, as I didn't find points for him. And lances are far superior to starcannons imo. Although starcannons would've been pretty useful indeed for dealing with Celestine.

Since SM have had similar option for a while, CWE have Reapers and Spears to try and counter it.

No, the option SM have, as all other Chapter Tactics, applies only to infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts, but not flyers or tanks. That makes a world of difference. Oh and - most importantly - it doesn't work with Girlyman, which means it could just as well not be there at all, lol.

Does Fortune help at all with keeping it going?

Yes, BUT you have to be very tactical with it. Basically, always look at the current situation and choose a key unit that your opponent is most likely to go after, and Fortune it. Unlike it was in old editions, Fortune is not really going to keep your unit alive under concentrated fire - but it will force your opponent to spend more firepower on it than normal. By the end of the game, provided you Fortune the right units, it adds up to a fairly significant amount - OR your opponent avoids your Fortuned units, in which case he's repeatedly ignoring the key threats, and so you're much more likely to beat him tactically.

[Tweedz]

Anyone have an opinion on the best craftworld for wraithlords, specifically ones that intend to get up close and personal (does anyone run them as stationary guns these days anyway?)? I am thinking either Ulthwe or Iyanden. Alaitoc might be nice for helping them get to melee, but is much less useful from then on. So eliminating that I am having trouble deciding whether it is better to shrug off more damage or fight at full strength for longer.