Topic: Dark Eldar weapons

[Khain Mor (/kharandhil)]

Why don't harlequins have Dark Eldar weapons?
They visit Commoragh sometimes, why not have DE weapons?

I'm both Dark eldar and eldar player, I'm a fan of harlies as they are now, but I don't see why they shouldn't have DE weapons.

Some DE weapons would fit very nicely on harlies.
I've always seen harlies as more eldar related, but it wouldn't be that bad to give them a greater link to their darker cousins.

[Rasmus]

I think it comes down to two reasons.

1. The original list didn't have any DE wepoans, since there were no DE back then.

2. Toting around weaoins loaded with people's dead relatives tend to make them a bit uneasy. That's how the Craftworlders would react, not a reaction that the DE have to the Craftworlder's tech, making it a bit more passable and versatile.

[Jest of Death]

I think that the weapons they use now is more of like a tradition for them.  I would assume they would only wear weapons like they are wearing now since they fully believe in The Laughing God.  And the weapons that they would use would make them less able to perform when performing.

Also, like Ardeth said, The Dark Eldar weren't around when Harlequins were made.

[Khodexus]

Here's an example idea for you, since I'm sort of the reason Kharandhil is asking.

In my fanfiction, I have a Harlequin Troupe visit Commorragh, and their Troupe Master is wielding an Agoniser (a Dark Eldar melee weapon which uses a power field to bypass armour and also a neuro-shock field to zap the target's nervous system, which allows it to always wound on a 4+, for those of you not famliar with it).

Would you guys consider this bad fluff, or does it fit fairly well that a Troupe Master may have picked up such a weapon while performing in the Dark City?

Also, in my revised Dark Eldar codex I left Harlequins with Shurriken Pistols.  Do you think it would be more fitting to give them Splinter Pistols instead, or is it better to leave them with their more normal (slightly more craftworld) weapons?

So, there's a couple questions to clarify for us.  Thanks!

"-That is all."

[Rasmus]

Consider for a moment the conservative attitude of the Craftworlders. They are adamantly trying to maintain their distance from the Dark Kin (and, by extension, themselves). Then think of the Harlequins coming to visit, toting a symbol of those same Dark Kin right into their livingroom showing it off. Would they appreciate it? Nope.
Now, would the Dark Eldar care one iota what weapons the Harlequins use? I sincerecly doubt it. They interact with pirates and brigands on a regular basis, the scum of the galaxy, sort of thing, and they are not trying to assimilate them or arm them. They just take them for what they are. So a Harlequin has a shuriken pistol. "Ok", goes the Dark Eldar, "that's fine. I'll kieep my splinterrifle, but sure, you hang on to that" and go about his business.
The Harlequins, made to be a unifying force for all Eldar factions, would know all of this, and "dress" accordingly.

In short - I don't believe for a second that Harlequins, keeping with their fluff, would ever use Dark Eldar weapons.

[Khodexus]

Not even when working with Dark Eldar instead of their Craftworld Kin?  Do you then think my example above of a Troupe Master with an Agoniser fighting alongside a Dark Eldar Kabal is something I should write out of my story?

"-That is all."

[Rasmus]

Why would they go and change their weapons week to week depending on where they were? It makes no sense logisitcally to have two (or more) sets of weapons just to accomodate whatever group they are with at the moment. It is better to keep one set, as neutral as possible, and work with that. That set happens to be shuriken based.

[Khodexus]

I'm not talking about the pistol, or any of the standard weapons most the Troupe has, I'm talking specifically about the Troupe Master, and a special melee weapon he carries, which just happens to be a weapon crafted specifically for him by a Dark Eldar Lord he helped at one point.  An agoniser, crafted in the Style of his old weapon, which was destroyed during that fight long ago.

Is that something you would object to storywise?  And is it an option you would object to the Troupe Master having in a Revised Dark Eldar Codex?

Also would be interested in getting some more people's opinions on this, so I can make an informative decision on this point.

"-That is all."

[Shadows Revenge]

Why don't harlequins have Dark Eldar weapons?
They visit Commoragh sometimes, why not have DE weapons?

In the DoW books they visit a harlie held world and there are both nightwings and ravens painting in harlie colors.

But anyway I would agree that they are ceremony more than anything, but I could see some harlies taking some h2h weapons from their dark kin as gifts, as I would guess those are higher prized, so I would only give them to the Troupe Master imo

[Khodexus]

That's what I did.  In my story, the Troupe Master has an Agoniser sword.  And in the revised codex, they have pretty much identical wargear and options as the Craftworld codex entry, but I added that a Troupe Master could get an Agoniser, and/or a Screamer Pistol (functions as a splinter pistol with 3 shots in the shooting phase).

Both my story and the codex revision can be accessed through the links in my Sig.

"-That is all."

[Jest of Death]

Alas, while i guess you could find a way for it to somehow fit, it still seems a bit odd.

The harlequins are performing Dance's to help the Eldar and others remember the story they are trying to tell.

If they started using different weapons, then they would be changing the dance, which means they would be changing the story.  And the whole point for them doing the dances' are history Lessons and to help the people they are performing for to remember.  Thus, they would be changing the only purpose for the dance, which is to help people remember the story they are telling in their dance.

So no, they wouldn't use dark eldar weapons.  Lets say they performed for Space Marines, does the Troupe master use a Chainsword?  No.  Because that's not what they had back then.  They are trying to help the people whom they are performing to remember what happened at that period of time.  So their weapons they are using now, would be the only ones they use or will use.

[Khodexus]

The weapons they are using now are not the weapons that were used during the times the stories are about.  I do not see how or why you feel the weapons change the dance.  They often tell stories about the war in heaven against the C'tan, and yet, during that time period they didn't even have anti-grav technology, or laser weaponry, or even shurriken weapons.

And I'm not talking about Harlequins performing for Dark Eldar, I'm talking about them fighting alongside them.  Which many may argue is essentially the same thing when it comes to Harlequins, but their 'performance' is not telling a story, it's creating a new one, in this case.

Besides, a Chainsword is generally worse than a Troupe Master's standard weapons, and considered crude and even alien technology, whereas an Agoniser is significantly better, and made with the same sort of technology and craftsmanship as the Harlequins other weapons, so it's hardly a viable comparison.

I've said I'm interested in people's opinions, but at least try to use relevant examples.

"-That is all."

[Rasmus]

I've said I'm interested in people's opinions, but at least try to use relevant examples.

That is a relevant example, and I totally get it. If you don't then you are just not looking at it.

Of course a change in something to integral as weapons in warrior troubadours would change their perceived attitude.
Of course perception is everything when you are working for the last living deity of a near-extinct civilisation, and jeopardizing your presentation for something so crude as a weaponry.

The Harlequins needs to be perceived for what they are. Neutral, in any conflict between Eldar factions, or all is lost. They cannot bear symbols of office, titles, weapons or gear that could in any way be viewed as "favouritism" by anyone. The Dark Eldar accept the use of Craftworlder weapons, in Harlequin and in Pirates. However, neither Pirates nor Craftworlders, and certainly not Exodites, accept the use of Dark Eldar weaponry. This is very simple, and presents itself very clearly.

[Khodexus]

Except that what you're saying is conjecture, or at least coming across that way.  Where is it written that Harlequins weapons are integral parts of their performances?  And where is it written that Craftworlders despise dark eldar weapons?  It's not like they don't mostly share almost the exact same technologies, minus the poison (which is not even involved in MOST DE weaponry, it's even "optional" in splinter weapons).

I understand your opinion is that the Harlequins wouldn't use Dark Eldar weapons, and that's fine.  But I need either direct canon quote references to back up your opinions, or else I need an overwhelming weight of opinion on the subject.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, as I do in fact desire and value your opinions, but at the same time, it seems like I'm only getting a couple of very hostile, and stubborn opinions from you guy, and you aren't even answering the most pertinent questions.

The way I see it, the Harlequins have Craftworld weapons because the Dark Eldar didn't exist when they were created, and it's become traditional.  However, there have been significant rumors of Harlequins getting an entry in the new Dark Eldar codex coming out sometime in the undefined, but hopefully not too distant future.

I would not be seriously surprised if they ended up with some Dark Eldar weapons in that entry.  However you seem to be of the opinion that GW would never do such a thing, and I'd like to get an honest, and believable answer as to "why".

The reasoning you're giving so far seems primarily conjecture, with vague statements about maintaining an appearance or performance, or that other Eldar have something intrinsically against Dark Eldar weapons even though they run on the same technology.

Is it the appearance of the Dark Eldar weapons?  Because I've already stated that in my fic, the Troupe Master's sword is not a traditional DE design.

Is it the poison they sometimes use in their splinter weapons?  Because that in itself is also easily circumvented.

Is it the Dark Matter?  None of the weapons I've mentioned potentially giving to Harlequins incorporate Dark Matter of any kind.

So what is it that's so objectionable?  It can't be the very technology, and it can't simply be the fact that they are associating with Dark Eldar, because that fact is already widely known and accepted.  Besides, using Craftworld weapons exclusively is already showing "favoritism", which in truth is the primary reason I don't see them having said prejudice.

So perhaps you can give me an explanation I can actually use?  Don't just tell me that they can't, or that they need to be neutral, or that they don't accept Dark Eldar.  Tell me WHY.  Tell me what it is about the weapons themselves, and about the act of accepting one as a gift that would so greatly detriment them that it would be seen as horrifyingly taboo.

And tell me what you would preffer I do about it, in both my fanfiction, and revision project, as I've asked several times now.

Thanks!

"-That is all."

[Rasmus]

So you are saying that you can't see why craftworlders would have an issue with weapons loaded with their dead relatives? Right...
I think I will step aside here, as you are clearly not interested in hearing anything other than encouragement for your ideas. I am sad to say that I cannot give it. THe idea does not make sense, does not fit into fluff, and is a bit silly. But go ahead, it is your game. Do as you wish. Just don't ask me to think it a good idea.

[Khodexus]

I never said that, so no I'm not saying that.  I'm not asking for nothing but encouragement, I'm asking for actual answers, not just evasions to the question, and vague unsupported statements.

I'm asking for canon references, to support your claims, not just the claims themselves.

Actually you don't seem to be very familiar with Dark Eldar weaponry, there are no Dark Eldar weapons made from soul stones, and only a very slight few which use ammunition made from captured wraithbone, most of which is either very rare (only allowed 1 per army) or can only be used by characters.  So when you said that the first time, I thought you were making a joke, and I apologize if that confused the issue at all.

Neither of the two weapons I have mentioned use anything even remotely related to soulstones or wraithbone.  The Screamer Pistol runs on the exact same technology as Shurikken pistols, and an Agoniser is just a power weapon with a neuro-shock field added.  It's not even built in the same style as regular DE weapons, but specifically crafted to mimic the Troupe Master's previous weapon in appearance, so no it's not a badge of office or a sign of favoritism.

I assure you that I am very interested in both encouragement and discouragement for my ideas.  But simply saying it can't be done, is not very helpful to me.  And I highly value your opinion, Ardeth, especially considering how helpful you were to my efforts the last time I was asking harlequin questions: here.

That is why I tried to stress in my last post that I'd like to know why.  And I'd like page references or direct quotes from actual fluff if you can supply them.

Show me what part of the fluff it doesn't fit into, and give me suggestions on what I should do about it.  I'm not upset that you're opposing my idea, I simply would like you to actually answer my pertinent questions instead of just telling me how horrible you think the idea is.

Anything you can supply in that regard will be most helpful, so I'll thank you in advance.

"-That is all."

[Spacefrisian]

I think the Blade could work like an Agoniser but may look like a sword.

Also the Harlequins fusion pistol works in the same manner as a Imperium Inferno pistol, but aren't the same in appearance.

[Ysena]

I always thought the Death Jesters Shreiker Cannon to be rather Dark Eldary. Maybe its the poison coated rounds I dunno.

[2quiet]

I think the Blade could work like an Agoniser but may look like a sword.

Which is quite often what they are, as agonisers can come in any form you can think of- sword, spear, axe, whip, mace, whatever.

I still understand that harlequins would, in the majority of cases, use craftworlder weapons due to their travelling around a lot and so encountering the different varieties of Eldar. However, if a particular troupe found it was in their path to remain with a Dark Eldar Kabal for an extended amount of time, I'm sure over the course of decades it is relatively likely that they would come to adopt at least to an extend as limited as suggested here, some Dark Eldar weapons.

Another point- it has in the past been possible to include a splinter pistol in an Eldar army, if you recall the kroot mercinaries list. Not that this proves anything, as its possible to make many unfluffy builds in 40k, but just something I thought I'd throw out there.

[Rasmus]

Also the Harlequins fusion pistol works in the same manner as a Imperium Inferno pistol, but aren't the same in appearance.

The Harlequin Fusion pistol is pretty much the same as a miniature fusiongun, which is close enough to a meltagun. It is all similar technology, to effect, if not capacity,design or application.

I always thought the Death Jesters Shrieker Cannon to be rather Dark Eldary. Maybe its the poison coated rounds I dunno.

Nope. The Shrieker Cannon is a Shuriken Cannon with a bio-explosive shuriken. It is not exactly "poison coated" but "poison core". It is an extra-heavy shuriken round (which is why it traditionally fired one round instead of three) filled with a cocktail of poisons and other nasty things.