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Offline The Reborn

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Killing hordes...
« on: December 4, 2017, 05:55:18 PM »
Blasts are gone, so are templates. Flamers are not as effective since they are so variable. So what Eldar units work best now versus hordes....what are your experiences in 8th, of ridding yourself of gaunts, Orks etc?😀
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #1 on: December 4, 2017, 07:30:35 PM »
Against Orks; Dire Avengers & Striking Scorpions,
against gaunts; Swooping Hawks & Storm Guardians(with flamers).

None of these options are super effective, but they are probably the best.

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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #2 on: December 4, 2017, 07:49:15 PM »
Tons of Shurikens are basically how you have to handle it against Orkz, I think. Striking Scorpions are probably good against them, since they are tough but have bad armor.

I've used Dire Avengers against Gaunts and they weren't so bad. I wonder if a Fire Prism in Dispersed mode might also be a good choice, especially since they have Grinding Advance now. It won't match up to the template weapons of old, but it's still a lot of shots.
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Offline Gildaheir

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #3 on: December 4, 2017, 08:11:07 PM »
Shining Spears (see the other thread) have a surprising quantity of shuriken fire and can dive into melee vs hordes. Shadow spectres from FW are a great option, but I'm not sure if the 10 pt increase from CA dooms them. 20x guardians in a webway portal can hit hard, especially with the black guardians stratagem. Warwalkers decked out with shuriken cannons aren't bad. Maybe not optimal points, though. Wraithlords with 2x shuriken cannons and 2x flamers can be mean for a budget price, and orks especially have a hard time killing em back. Hordes are definitely not our strong suit, but we're not toast the second we run into one.

Offline magenb

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #4 on: December 4, 2017, 09:52:15 PM »
Hordes are a right pain for a number of armies, but really are problematic for CWE as we don't get stuff with 30+ long range shots, like imperial armies.

WW scatlasers are useful against hordes, solid number of shots at good strength and mostly outside of return fire range.

Mass shuriken sort of works, its just more useful in all comer lists than scatlasers.



Offline The Mattler

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #5 on: December 4, 2017, 10:02:02 PM »
Swooping Hawks, Guardian Defenders (Webway Strike), and Dire Avengers are all good choices.  Storm Guardians are alright, but only for the Flamers in tiny squads, and they need a transport.  Windriders (especially Saim-Hann with Scatterlasers) and Shining Spears can work too, but they're not as efficient except when the Spears can shoot with their Laser Lances and charge. 

The most efficient horde killer in the Codex by far is the Dark Reaper Exarch w/Tempest Launcher.  If you just run a bunch of minimal squads, the Exarchs will shred the hordes while the other 2 Reapers per squad shoot at tougher targets.  You have to hide them, but the Tempest Launcher doesn't need LOS.
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Offline Sieq

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #6 on: December 4, 2017, 10:18:19 PM »
Wouldn't howling banshees be a decent pick against IG or gaunts? Really fast models suffering no overwatch with lots of attacks with power swords. Wounding on 4+ or 5+ against T4, but they worked rather well for me while fighting IG.

Overall the following models come to mind when I think "anti-horde": Guardian Defenders, Dire Avengers, Swooping Hawks, Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, wraithlords, dark reapers(tempest launcher), and maybe warp spiders? Warp spiders would be better against orks, but I do not know many people who run them even in that case. They're not bad, but perhaps a bit pricey.

Offline The Reborn

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #7 on: December 5, 2017, 08:46:22 AM »
Thanks guys, I was thinking scatbikes and maybe war walkers with scatter lasers or shuriken cannons.
I used a couple of wraithlords, but even with flamers, they were very unpredictable. What made things even worse was having to hit Carnifexes on 5's because my opponent had some nasty add-on and I was moving. He was hitting on 4's.....gah!
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #8 on: December 5, 2017, 09:46:03 AM »
Of all units listed in the thread, one that I wouldn't recommend using is War Walkers. Just not cost efficient-enough.

Per my number-crunching, our top three horde killers in terms of points invested per wound inflicted are:

1. Guardian Defenders
2. Shining Spears
3. Banshees & Scorpions
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Offline The Reborn

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #9 on: December 5, 2017, 12:52:53 PM »
Hi SeekingOne, I don't own any guardians, Shining Spears, Scorps or Banshees. :-[

But I do have bikes and walkers! :)
Otherwise, I totally agree with you mate.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #10 on: December 5, 2017, 02:06:06 PM »
Hi SeekingOne, I don't own any guardians, Shining Spears, Scorps or Banshees. :-[
Me neither, lol. My first set of Shining spears is still waiting for assembly :)

Quote
But I do have bikes and walkers! :)
Me too  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I can fully recommend fielding bikes with scatter lasers under Saim-Hann attribute, they are fantastic. While they are not as deadly on paper as Guardians for instance, the fact that they can pound the enemy infantry turn after turn while staying out of reach of most small arms fire, more than makes up for it.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #11 on: December 5, 2017, 03:50:15 PM »
Simply anything that can throw out a lot of hits (ranged or melee) can deal with hordes.

-Avengers and Guardians are the cheapest.

-Shining Spears in squads of five put out quite a lot of damage.

-Depending on your usual opponents Swooping Hawks put out A TON of fire good for T3 opponents. Throw a power sword on the Exarch and they can assault to clean up a few models.

-I'd like to throw Warp Spiders in the list as well. They put out a decent enough volume to help with T4 horde units. They can also assault OK in a pinch if you need to clean up some left over models.

-Windriders with the basic twin-shuriken catapults can be good if used aggressively (if you lack Guardians/Avengers). They cost 1/3 more but are more hardy, maneuverable, and can fall back and still fire thanks to fly (don't need a CP for Fire and Fade).

Offline Fenris

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #12 on: December 6, 2017, 10:20:58 AM »
I think there is merit in looking at this topic when dealing with orks and gaunts:
How to kill GEQ
From that we get:
1. Storm guardian with flamers
2. Guardians with scatter laser
3. Swooping Hawks/Striking Scorpion (depends on if the target is in cover or not)

Another thing to thing about is the pure number of attacks(shooting and melee) the unit can deliver, comparred to their point cost, then we have some interesting contenders:

Swooping Hawks 2,17 points per attack (ppa) [no exarch]
Storm guardians with flamers 2,51 ppa
Defender guardians with scatter laser 2,88 ppa
Striking Scorpions 2,15 ppa [no exarch]
Dire Avengers 3,71 ppa [no exarch]

The reason I suggested Dire avengers is because they are good against first turn charges.

Since they were suggested I included these:

Warp Spiders 6 ppa [no exarch]
Windrider 4,6 ppa
Shining Spears 4,43 ppa [no exarch]
Howling Banshees 4,33 ppa [no exarch]

but they do not really match up.

Warp spiders are also actually worse against orks than gaunts, due to the 8th ed strength/toughness table. Their rending is even less useful than the shuriken rending, because these rendings only works fully against 4+ saves or better, and the spiders need at least power armour to get their full use of it.
This is why warp spiders are a terrible choice, but also makes the defender guardians and Dire Avengers less useful than against GEC.

Wraithlord with flamers and scatter lasers 7,26 ppa.
« Last Edit: December 6, 2017, 10:24:59 AM by Fenris »
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Offline magenb

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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #13 on: December 6, 2017, 04:09:06 PM »
To sum it up, if you want to kill a horde you have to send in a horde. Which doesn't make a lick of sense fluff wise for Eldar... [oldmanrant] back in my day kids could read a simple table... [/oldmanrant]



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Re: Killing hordes...
« Reply #14 on: December 6, 2017, 04:37:51 PM »
I often try to mitigate large units in don't want to deal with right away, by charging a tank into them.

They'll probably not be able to kill the vehicle, and it'll prevent them from shooting and charging for a turn. Can really slow them down. Especially useful against unit's like pox walkers and ork boys mobs.

Doesn't effect elder vehicles too much, as they can just fly away and keep shooting the following turn.
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