Topic: Good Allies For SOB at 1500 Points?

[starstrider]

So I have roughly 1000 points of SOB now, and my short term aim is to settle at an army of 1500 points (hopefully to be expanded a bit in the future, but I've decided 1500 is a fair beginning). I'm wondering how to best fill out those extra 500 points. I have a lot of ideas, and would be happy to keep my list sisters only although I'm not dead set on that either by any means. I thought the first thing I should do is look into allies a bit though, as I'm not particularly familiar with the other lists while some of you fine folks, I'm sure, are.

I was thinking that allies might be able to primarily help either in terms of 1) providing a solid close combat unit that my sisters lack outside of a good battle conclave, or 2) provide a good means of anti air support, which I seem to be lacking as well (although I could probably pick up a fortification of some sort for that role if I had to... I think I'd prefer models to fortifications though). 3) Is probably much less beneficial than either of the above choices, but I was thinking I could also use allies to find a unit that can reach out and touch someone at long range, since the sisters don't have much in the way of that either beyond exorcists.

So my questions are....
Are the above three goals pretty correct in terms of what to look for with allies?
What are some good units for achieving those goals? Preferably from IG or one of the Marine lists to stay kind of fluffy, unless you have a really interesting other idea.
Is it better to avoid allies, and simply focus on maximizing the strengths of my own army 100% rather than giving up a bit of my strength to try and mitigate a weakness?

[Guildmage Aech]

I have quite enjoyed using GK allies with my sisters. A small unit of GKT is both scoring, able to deep strike and reasonably good at hand to hand (5 terminators won't beat down the best combat units in the game but "shoot their righty stuff, fight their Shooty stuff" theory applies!)
Stormraven are great anti air machines, and inquisitors are both fluffy in a sister of battle army and pretty effective.

Imperial guard make decent allies by adding fire support and deadly vendetta gunships for anti air.

The other options are marines, although I shy away from that as it makes me feel it reduces the point of playing sisters of battle in the first place... Depends what you go for I guess!

[Scyrex Deledras]

I would have to agree with Hymirl that Grey Knights and Imperial Guard both make for great allies, as they both shore up crucial weaknesses in our list. Grey Knights give us close combat ability (massed power weapons), durable units (t4 and 3+/2+ saves), and effective mid-strength guns (psycannons). Imperial Guard, meanwhile, give us the potential for cheap hordes of numbers, more and better tanks, and either more masses of flamers and meltas OR something we don't have- plasmas! Plus, as Battle Brothers, their Psykers can actually affect Sisters units, and while that isn't fluffy, the prospect of Celestine boosted with Iron Arm or Battle Sisters affected by Endurance is pretty nice.

Plus, of course, both groups give us flyers. And pretty damn good flyers, I might add.

Here is how I would field an allied contingents for both armies:

GREY KNIGHTS:

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor- Terminator armour, psycannon, nemesis daemonhammer, psyker, 3 servo-skulls- 119
5 Grey Knight Terminators- psycannon, daemonhammer, Justicar w. halberd- 225

Right off the bat, for just under 500 points, you have a unit that not only has nice firepower (especially with Prescience rerolls from the Inquisitor), but can also handle just about anything in close combat. The addition of servo-skulls means that you can also counter enemy Scout/Infiltrate shenanigans. To bulk up the allied force, you could add:

10 Inquisitorial Henchmen- 8 Psykers, 2 Warrior Acolytes- 88
-Rhino- 40
Vindicare Assassin- 145

The Henchmen (who don't take up a slot due to the weirdness of their entry) provide you with a big S10 AP1 template at 36" that, in conjunction with the Servo-Skulls, will probably hit its target (just don't perils, and definitely dont bring this unit if you know you're facing Eldar!) The Vindicare, meanwhile, can be used to pop off annoying enemy heavy weapons, squad leaders or even drop invul saves on enemy warlords, and he can potentially nail the AV14 vehicles that Exorcists will struggle with. The Vindicare is nice, but not a must, though, and is very pricey for a 2-wound model, so I would only take him at a higher-level game.

Oh yes, and if you want to give those Termies some mobility and dont want to deep strike them, consider the Stormraven. You could field it at its base cost and weapons, or add in things like multi-meltas or plasma cannons. Just be wary that, like everything with the Grey Knights, it can get pricey really fast. Again, unless you aim to make airborne Terminators a big part of your list, I would usually field the Stormraven at higher point games.


For Imperial Guard, meanwhile, I would take the following:

Primaris Psyker- 70
10 Veterans- 3 plasma guns- 115
Vendetta- 130

Again, a really good cluster of allies for under 500 points. The Vendetta-borned Veterans can swoop in mid-game, blow up a tank or flyer or two, and disembark to either hose down a tough target with plasmas, or grab an objective. The Primaris can join them, or ride with some Sisters. In either instance, I advocate Biomancy as the Primaris' power, as it has a good variety of witchfires, blessings and maledictions.

Alternately, of course, you can take a large blob of Guardsmen (30-50) with axe-wielding sergreants, stick Jacobus in there, and walk up and sit on objectives. I've seen Jacobus-enhanced Guard platoons in action before, and I can honestly say that such a squad will give your opponent fits.

[starstrider]

Wow, good write up on suggestions. Thanks.

One thing I'm (probably needlessly?) worried about regarding terminators in general is that I feel they're fragile. This is because I haven't played (much) 40k since 2nd/3rd/4th edition, although I've dabbled. The first edition I played with a real solid understanding of the rules was 3rd. In my first game there I had a unit of terminators get carved up like cloth by some howling banshees.

Now, obviously I'm smarter now and know what banshees can do. Power weapons and the game themselves have also changed up a lot in sixth. But I'm still under some superstitious fear that terminators are expensive and fragile from what happened to me then as a kid. Is that more or less simply untrue (assuming I'm now smart enough to keep them out of combats against 10 power weapons like that)?

I'm also a bit unsure how I'd use the GK terminators. 36 inch shooting from psycannons sounds great, but I'm sort of worried about them meshing with the rest of my army (which will presumably be mechanized). I guess if I mount the terminators in a storm raven that problem is fixed, but then their fire power is sort of wasted and they become essentially a flyer-delivered assault/counter assault unit? Their armor is also a bit wasted if they're spending several turns not on the table. I guess I'm worried they're not points-effective (although maybe they have a lot more attacks than regular grey knights or something, I don't know their statline).

Can someone convince me otherwise? Because I like the idea of using them actually. The models are neat, and the GK paint scheme would probably mesh well with my armies (I'm thinking of doing white/blue... but may do black/red). I even like the fact I'd only need six models for this. It's cash-effective and space-effective in RL, and both of those count for a lot.

On a slightly separate note, without giving away stats or anything, can someone give me a vague comparison of the storm raven and the vendetta? I'm worried about flyers. Since they never existed while I was playing 40k, they're all very new and alien and frightening to me.

Edit: This is entirely irrelevant game-wise. But fluff wise I'm not sure how the GK work. Would they broadly be interested in killing my Sisters after the battle so that no word spread of their existence?

[Guildmage Aech]

I suggest ignoring the stupid bit of fluff about the GK killing everyone who knows about them, sisters are sufficiently important (and politically backed by the church) so that wouldn't happen. Allegedly they have links with the inquisition anyway, but ssshhh about that because its a secret!

I would suggest deep striking terminators, by the time they turn up you will likely have plenty of infantry on the board anyway, partly because transports don't last and party because sisters favour a 'get involved' style of game play!

I'd just beam them down near trouble and have them try to wade in and cause people problems. Keeping a couple with swords grants a decent invulnerable save just in case it goes badly. Alternatively drop then into your opponents back field to cause disruption. Terminators work best used as a bully, picking on things that can't fight back very well!

They're not invincible but you have to consider what they should and shouldn't fight against. 

[Scyrex Deledras]

Wow, good write up on suggestions. Thanks.

One thing I'm (probably needlessly?) worried about regarding terminators in general is that I feel they're fragile. This is because I haven't played (much) 40k since 2nd/3rd/4th edition, although I've dabbled. The first edition I played with a real solid understanding of the rules was 3rd. In my first game there I had a unit of terminators get carved up like cloth by some howling banshees.

Now, obviously I'm smarter now and know what banshees can do. Power weapons and the game themselves have also changed up a lot in sixth. But I'm still under some superstitious fear that terminators are expensive and fragile from what happened to me then as a kid. Is that more or less simply untrue (assuming I'm now smart enough to keep them out of combats against 10 power weapons like that)?

Nah, they'll be fine as long as you don't run into (1) massed AP2 weaponry, or (2) are simply forced to make a LOT of saves. And in that regard, the Terminators will probably be a big fire magnet, but as long as the enemy is shooting at them and not your Sisters, that's still a win for you.

I'm also a bit unsure how I'd use the GK terminators. 36 inch shooting from psycannons sounds great,

24 inches, actually. 

but I'm sort of worried about them meshing with the rest of my army (which will presumably be mechanized). I guess if I mount the terminators in a storm raven that problem is fixed, but then their fire power is sort of wasted and they become essentially a flyer-delivered assault/counter assault unit? Their armor is also a bit wasted if they're spending several turns not on the table. I guess I'm worried they're not points-effective (although maybe they have a lot more attacks than regular grey knights or something, I don't know their statline).

Try using them as a deep-striking surprise, then, or have them move up to hold one of the objectives closer to you. If you still feel uncertain, then try a few test games with them using proxy models. That should give you a better idea of whether or not they're worthwhile for you.

The models are neat, and the GK paint scheme would probably mesh well with my armies (I'm thinking of doing white/blue...

Great minds think alike, it seems. 

On a slightly separate note, without giving away stats or anything, can someone give me a vague comparison of the storm raven and the vendetta? I'm worried about flyers. Since they never existed while I was playing 40k, they're all very new and alien and frightening to me.

The Stormraven is easily the most expensive of the two. Both flyers are AV 12 all around (except the Vendetta, which is AV10 in the rear). The Stormraven comes armed with twin-linked assault cannon and twin-linked heavy bolters, though if memory serves, the bolters can be traded for a twin-linked multi-melta, and the assault cannon for a twin-linked lascannon or plasma cannon. It also can be armed with four one-use missiles that use a small s8 blast and force Perils rolls on any psykers they hit. For transport capacity, it can carry up to 10 regular-sized models and 1 walker. Finally, meltas lose their extra armour penetration against it, and in total it comes down to something like 200+ points before upgrades.

The Vendetta, on the other hand, is just above the 100s in price, can carry 10 models, and comes armed with three twin-linked lascannons before upgrades. I actually tested it out yesterday with my Sisters, and I can confirm that it is fantastic against both enemy armour and flyers.

I should add that both vehicles carry stuff (obviously), and both are slightly more vulnerable once they hover to drop their squads off. The Stormraven, at least, is an assault vehicle, so whatever is being carried inside will get to charge.

Edit: This is entirely irrelevant game-wise. But fluff wise I'm not sure how the GK work. Would they broadly be interested in killing my Sisters after the battle so that no word spread of their existence?

I think they are confident enough in the Sisters' faith and purity that they would leave them alone. Although there is one story in the Grey Knight codex about the Knights killing a bunch of Sisters to anoint their blades in holy blood so they could kill Daemons better. Most Sisters players try to pretend that fluff bit doesn't exist. 

[starstrider]

Hmm. Interesting. Looks like the Vendetta might be more up my alley flyer-wise, but the GK troops seem more up my ally troop-wise. Will just have to think a bit and run with one choice or the other.

Definitely got all the info I needed and then some though, very helpful.  Thanks you two.

[small_furry_spider]

Edit: This is entirely irrelevant game-wise. But fluff wise I'm not sure how the GK work. Would they broadly be interested in killing my Sisters after the battle so that no word spread of their existence?

I think they are confident enough in the Sisters' faith and purity that they would leave them alone. Although there is one story in the Grey Knight codex about the Knights killing a bunch of Sisters to anoint their blades in holy blood so they could kill Daemons better. Most Sisters players try to pretend that fluff bit doesn't exist. 

That's because it contradicts previous fluff in both armies' older codexes and does not make sense- it's an example of Matt Ward at his finest he has wrecked far too many codexes both in terms of rules and fluff . The blood is supposed to protect them from the risks of chaos, despite the fact that no grey knight has every fallen to chaos and if I said "X ritually slaughtered sisters of battle and bathed in their blood before a battle to help them in their fight, guess what X is" you would be right to think that X should be khornate chaos marines.
For a few more words about Matt Ward, this is a useful (and humerous) summary:
Matthew Ward - 1d4chan

[LoH]

I usually come at the allies question from the opposite side of the table -- I have Space Wolves and IG armies that frequently bring Sisters as backup forces. For IG, Sisters are more hardened front-line troops, and for wolves, they're cheaper disposable units. Then again, I run with a very Norse-ish fluff for my Sisters (which is why they'd be seen with my Wolves).

If bringing IG, consider either a "Navy"-style air wing (complete with shotgun-wielding vets), an artillery support crew, or proper tanks. Since you can bring anything useful in the guard in threes, makes for good efficiency for an allies detachment. Also, the minimum required purchases for IG are small if you don't want to spend much on infantry. Even so, 500pts are enough to bring 4 chimeras loaded with basic troops to just throw themselves at the enemy and provide targets, with cheap special weapons. I'd probably only bring 3 and pass out plasmaguns or heavy weaponry. Bringing none gives you the ability to drop 3 or so heavy weapons teams fielding lascannons (a weapon not seen in the Sisters codex). Even Hellhound variants with a minimal squad purchase would give you "moar" fire.

For a SM backup force, I'd probably focus on a pod filled-to-the-brim with disruption-style firepower, or adding Librarians.

EDIT:

For a few more words about Matt Ward, this is a useful (and humerous) summary:
Matthew Ward - 1d4chan

Shazbot, you burned a good few hours of my life with that link. CUUUURSESSSS!

[bebe]

I use an SW detachments as well ...

@ 1500
HQ: Rune Priest, Divination, Living Lightning, Tempest's Wrath,  Chooser of the Slain 130
Troops: 10 Grey Hunters, 2 Plasmaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Rhino 220
Heavy: 5 Long Fangs, 4 Missile Launchers 115 
@ 1850
HQ: Rune Priest, Divination, Living Lightning, Tempest's Wrath,  Chooser of the Slain 130
Lone Wolf, Terminator Armour, Chainfist, Stormshield, Fenrisian Wolf 95
Troops: 2x 10 Grey Hunters, 2 Plasmaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard, Rhino 440
Heavy: 6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers 140 

Honestly, SoB battle sisters are weak. I cannot get T3 troops to do anything but sit on objectives and even then if attacked they fold. St. Celestine, Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors are my go to units and exorcists are pretty good too. I prefer to spam retributors with heavy bolters behind an Aegis supported by the log fangs. That is a lot of dakka.

[Guildmage Aech]

Honestly, SoB battle sisters are weak. I cannot get T3 troops to do anything...

Ever heard of the bad Workman blaming his tools?

They're a very different unit to grey hunters, and harder to use. I play space wolves as well and grey hunters are absurdly good for their cost, they can literally rock up and get assaulted by any thing short of a deathstar and take it on the chin without a care in the world... they're far better than tactical marines its not even funny...

I find that using sisters units requires a bit more care. They shoot as hard, so push that advantage, don't sit around waiting for people to come to you. So you need to isolate targets, gang up on them and shoot them dead.

And Rhinos really are your friend, first you hide in them and then behind them. The number of times you can make units waste their time dealing with a rhino road block is great, flat out moves really imporoved mech armies this edition.

[bebe]

Ever heard of the bad Workman blaming his tools?

Seriously? They are the only option we have and I use them as best I can. They have to get within 24" to do anything and if assaulted or shot at they will not survive. You have to give your opponent the credit of knowing how easy it is to deal with them. Of course I play them cautiously. It does not ameliorate the issue that T3 is not going to take on anything in assault and your opponent will go after them if they sit on an objective. This is precisely why I add Grey Hunters to my list. And yes, I use rhinos. They certainly help. When using allies with SoB I look at troop options closely. I need troops. I also look for psychic defense and abilities. SW fits the mold well. I'm not knocking sisters at all. I'm trying to use their strengths and shore their weaknesses.

[starstrider]

I like the idea of the basic troop unit for them being something of a compromise. I like the simplicity of them being "the" troop choice as well also - they're a pretty integral part of the list and a defining feature of the army, and I love that. They'll certainly fold in assault. I'm not sure they're that bad against shooting though... a difference in toughness with what are (more or less) the toughest troops out there of only one point isn't much, and they've got very solid armor. They'll loose a few more to bolter shots than space marines, but they cost a bit less too. And lots of things that can blow past a 3+ save at range can blow past your toughness regardless of whether it's 3 or 4, right? Big ordnance blasts, missiles, plasma... I'd rather have a sister of battle take the shot than a marine if needed, simply because there's more of them (and we get 6++s against them too, take that!)

I'm worrying much more about assaults though, for the moment, as well as ways to come up with anti-air (I'll probably want to worry about anti-psychic stuff too, once I get clobbered by a few psykers, but that lesson hasn't sunk in yet). I like the options guard have and I like their AA choices, but they really don't fix my assault problem very well. I did have like, 30 old guard models lying around so they'll probably be what I start with, but I'm not sure I'm sold.

I think grey knights might work well, although I'm not really a fan of the storm raven (that's a lot of points I don't want sunk into a single flyer). Space wolves do sound like they'd work well, but I'm not partial to that chapter for purely personal aesthetic reasons.

So I think I'll start with IG simply because I have them, and will probably gradually shift over to GK after getting clobbered in assault one time too many