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Author Topic: Corsair POC: Scions of the Void  (Read 34068 times)

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Offline Arquarian

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #20 on: March 6, 2012, 06:48:31 AM »
Excelent!

Please take a camera. we'll all be looking forward to the BatRep  ;D

You and Khorne25 seem to be the ones spearheadding the on feild testing so we're all relying on you guys for good info....

Arq.

Offline Khorne25

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #21 on: March 7, 2012, 07:41:57 AM »
I am potentially having a 1500 pts game this Sunday so Ill let you guys know what list Im running and some photos.
+
I havent found the time to continue my konvershuns but I promise theyll be coming back online soon and a photo of WIP will be forthcoming.

Edit: Regarding my article these are the points covered

- Strengths and weaknesses
- Types of Army Lists
- Units and how they fit into the grand scheme of things
- Internal points balance, detailed analysis of the points mechanics
- Comparative power with other army lists (namely IG, Tau, CWE, DE)
- Converting CWE Lists for Corsairs: why doesnt this work?
- Intrinsic problems that Forgeworld theorycrafters missed entirely (namely the Farseer and Eldar HQ)
- Proposed revisions (eg. Voidstorms to FA, reduction of HQ points costs, reduction of Felarch costs, revision of Void Dreamer)

Why propose revisions? Not because I anticipate anyone to play my revised corsair army list. I want to highlight the issues with the army list which really do break it and honestly, given another week of playtesting and thinking, Forgeworld could have spotted them and given a better army list.
« Last Edit: March 7, 2012, 07:58:36 AM by Khorne25 »


My Voidborn Eldar Corsairs

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Former armies:
Tau, SM, CSM, 3rd Ed DE (updating to 5th Ed)

Offline Arquarian

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #22 on: March 8, 2012, 12:23:58 PM »
I'm having massive trouble now shoehorning a decent 1K list together.
I've fallen in love with Hornets as I've stumbled upon their huge potential after reading IA11 until 2 this morning.

I think what I'm going to have to do is go away and make 2k or 1500 and whittle it down.
Like Phantamime I'm going for an assorted mech list. I'll post what I come up with tonight....

 

Offline Zilverscale

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #23 on: March 8, 2012, 12:53:25 PM »
I seem to have the same problem :)

working back from a bigger list is best.

PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline Khorne25

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #24 on: March 8, 2012, 01:49:18 PM »
The temptation with a Forgeworld list is to try include all of the really cool stuff.

But a Corsairs army list does not need to have units in every FOC slot, it is very troop heavy and mildly elite heavy. In mech list, I expect the HS slots to be filled up to 2 and 3 at 1500+ usually with Warp Hunters. In other lists at 1500+ I would expect to see Pheonixes. FA-wise, this is dependant on whether youre bringing Wasps or not in my opinion. One Nightspinner maybe, but Nightwings are a much stronger possibility.

For the most part, HS and FA are under used on a Corsairs list because they have some bad choices (Firestorm) or lack of HS tank choices (only the Warp Hunter).


My Voidborn Eldar Corsairs

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Former armies:
Tau, SM, CSM, 3rd Ed DE (updating to 5th Ed)

Offline Radium

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #25 on: March 8, 2012, 02:18:04 PM »
The temptation with a Forgeworld list is to try include all of the really cool stuff.

This is what I'm struggling with as well. I want to include lots of shiny stuff (Nightwing, Phoenixes, both HQ choices etc), but points do not allow me to do so.

The only real problem I can see with Corsairs is a lack of non-suicide anti-tank weapons. I know you can take Corsair squads with fusion guns, and bright lances or pulse lasers in most slots, but the first will die quite horribly while the second is quite expensive. All of the corsair lists I've written so far seem to include the insanely useful Kabalite Warrior unit (5 + blaster in a Venom) and a squad of Fire Dragons. 
And then there's the problems I find with FW lists. Some things just don't make sense (Why do Voidstorm squads come with shimmershields but without the option to field them all with power weapons? Or better yet: why can't Blade Sworn take shimmershields?).
In short: writing a nice Corsair list is actually quite hard. I usually run out of points before I get all the stuff I want or I like I lack some of the tools required to properly play the game.
Knowledge is power; guard it well.


Offline Khorne25

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #26 on: March 8, 2012, 02:27:58 PM »
The temptation with a Forgeworld list is to try include all of the really cool stuff.
 
And then there's the problems I find with FW lists. Some things just don't make sense (Why do Voidstorm squads come with shimmershields but without the option to field them all with power weapons? Or better yet: why can't Blade Sworn take shimmershields?).
In short: writing a nice Corsair list is actually quite hard. I usually run out of points before I get all the stuff I want or I like I lack some of the tools required to properly play the game.

The FW list is written badly and ill thought out. It needs a rework not just a 6th Ed update.


My Voidborn Eldar Corsairs

OLD Eldar Corsair Blog

Former armies:
Tau, SM, CSM, 3rd Ed DE (updating to 5th Ed)

Offline Arquarian

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 12:33:21 PM »
... However its all we got sa may as well make the best of it  ;D

So heres a 1250 list I've put together.
I appreciate there is a move away from Hornets but I@ve included them anyway. What do you guys think?

Corasir Prince   130   
Void sabre, Shadowfield, Fusion pistol
      
Blade sworn   345   
5 x Power weapons, 2 x fusion pistols
   Falcon   
Brightlance, Holo-fields, spirit stones
   
9 x Voidstorm   141   
3 x Flamers, meltabombs

5 x Corsairs   196   
Shuricannon, flamer,
Felarch, powersword
   Venom, EML
      
5 x Corsairs   45   
      
2 x Hornet   240   
Pulse laser, Brightlance
   
Fire storm   190   
spirit stones

You'll also notive the CAVU Firestorm, Normally I hate doing this but I think it works here.
I also apprecite I've given my overcosted some hilariously overcosted wargear but hey, that's just me...


C&C welcome

Arq.

Offline greenmtvince

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 01:12:14 PM »
Honestly, after my tournament experience I'm gonna just say: Scatter Lasers.

Put em on the Falcons, Hornets, and the Venom.  I like that the firestorm is just a giant long barreled scatter laser machine.  Use the points saved on the Hornets to buy another scatter hornet.

I also think there's a lot of points tied up in that bladesworn that you'll find won't contribute much if anything to the fight.  This is where I'd take some craftworld outcasts or Harlequins if you need some close combat hitting power.  If we're talking models you have, I could have sworn you mentioned having a large Eldar collection you could draw from.  You can give the falcon and prince to the CAVU Firestorm squad. 

My suggestions gimp your heavy armour ability a little, and I'd say you could compensate for that by running the voidstorms with fusion guns and have the prince hop out of the tank and call in a void strike. 

Caveat to the above with scatter lasers, if your terrain/playstyle/table size means you're going to only have a turn or two of shooting or force you to always operate at 24-30" then I think shuriken cannons will both be fine and free up some points (4 shuri hornets for 3 scatter hornets.)

Offline Khorne25

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 01:40:55 PM »
- Bladesworn cannot operate on their own due to their small numbers. They cannot tarpit effectively either. Their primary purpose to serve as a retinue to the Prince and take his wounds. At least this is how I view them, by upgrading them with PWs and FPs youve effectively doubled their cost.

- Not a fan of the Firestorm as its a bit too pricey for my liking. If you playtest let us know :)

- SL spam as per CWE as GMT mentioned. I recommend dropping the BLs for SLs

- Voidies need special weapons else theyre pointless. 9 GEQ CCs with improved WS arent terribly good, maybe if they could be spammed in troops slots but they really need something, at least flamers.


My Voidborn Eldar Corsairs

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Former armies:
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Offline greenmtvince

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2012, 02:04:42 PM »
And echoing what Khorne said it's why my princess and her bladesworn are getting prism weapons and becoming "shadow spectres."  They cost a little less (271 vs 232) pick up a 4++ save (the exarch gets a 3+ armour save) and have a nasty ranged shooting attack that's even more versatile than the scatter laser, plus the jetpack synergy witht he rest of the list.

I bet he can make the Firestorm work for him. :D  It's no warp-hunter, but I reckon it'll do a pretty good job of stopping rhino rush.

He does have flamers in this list, I think fusions would be better if you take away all the bright lances.


Offline Radium

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2012, 05:19:43 AM »

So heres a 1250 list I've put together.
I appreciate there is a move away from Hornets but I@ve included them anyway. What do you guys think?


I like the list thematically. But I feel you have far too many points invested in units like the Blade Sworn and Voidsworn, and not enough troops.
Personally, I don't really see the close combat effectiveness of Corsairs, not even of Blade Sworn or something. So for combat units I'd always use the Craftworld outcasts or Harlequins (although without fortune I can't really justify getting the Harlequins).

As others have mentioned before me, I'd swap out the Bright Lance and Pulse Laser of the Hornet for Scatter Lasers. They sure don't look as pretty as the more graceful Lance, but the amount of shots they produce at a very respectable strength is all the reason I need to take them.

For the points of the Fire Storm I'd rather take a Nightwing, but given that you intend to run the Fire Storm with CAVU, that's not really an option.
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Offline Arquarian

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2012, 06:04:42 AM »
I should explain my gaming scene. I play amongst a lots of MEQ power players. BA and GK and a die hard IG tread head with a russ Varient obsession.  You can almost always guarantee that there will be at very least one AV14/13 facing me. Neutralising these obviously is important. That explains the Brightlance fetish and as good as Scatter lasers are they're not even going to scratch the paint of these tanks.


Honestly, after my tournament experience I'm gonna just say: Scatter Lasers.
I hear you and normally I would. My CWE armies are made up of Scatter spam and shuricannon spam. However two things first as Iíve stated to above I see quite a bit of heavy mech. Secondly with the increased BS of Corsairs I think thereís something in the more specialised weapons. At prese3nt I donít have 2 Hornets but am converting 2 Wasps. These will be sporting Starcannons as a trial. Iíll let you know how they get on. 8)

Quote
I also think there's a lot of points tied up in that bladesworn that you'll find won't contribute much if anything to the fight... 
Yep these are a bit of a points sink and yep I donít see them killing hoardes of enemy. I do see them hanging back field tanks hunting until the time is right then supported by the Venom squad and or the Voidstorms theyíll dust up whatever is left. Think of them as late game objective clearers.

Quote
You can give the falcon and prince to the CAVU Firestorm squad. 
Not quite sure what youíre referring to here. I put the Prince and the Falcon inside the Firestorm ??? not sure thatís going to work.


- Bladesworn cannot operate on their own due to their small numbers. They cannot tarpit effectively either. Their primary purpose to serve as a retinue to the Prince and take his wounds. At least this is how I view them, by upgrading them with PWs and FPs youíve effectively doubled their cost.
I hear what youíre saying but if youíre looking for ablative wounds then normal corsairs are FAR cheaper. Anyway this isnít how Iím going to use them, see previous point above... Iím not saying itíll work but Iím going to give it a try.

Quote
- Not a fan of the Firestorm as its a bit too pricey for my liking. If you playtest let us know :)
 
Firestorm sitting on a home objective and has a range of 60Ē must be worth a try ;) I@;; let you know how I get on. Looking forward to modelling a homemade long barrel Scatter cannon!


Quote
- Voidies need special weapons else theyre pointless. 9 GEQ CCs with improved WS arent terribly good, maybe if they could be spammed in troops slots but they really need something, at least flamers.
Erm, I gave them 3 flamers. Idea being that they jump in flame/pistol a unit to death and take the resultant charge. With Shimmersheilds they should hold at least for one phase until the cavalry in the form of the Prince and his Bladesworn get involved.

Itís not a GT winning list this I know but I think it offers something different. Iím going to have to proxy the Hornets as Iím not going to splash FW levels of cash on 2 units I may use again. A nightwing is definately on the cards but I@m going to wait for the cheaper Plastic GW one which will come (I hope) with the nes edition. As for everything else I have it all minus some freaky converting and a mock up paint job. If all goes well Iíll have my first game in a couple of months. (by which time I will have changed my list several times over  ::)


Offline Khorne25

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2012, 12:03:14 PM »
Im just about to have a game with my Corsairs. For the sake of entertainment my friend and I have waived Uncertain Allies
Essentially its a Mercenary Corsair list.

1x Void Dreamer
+ witchblade
+ gyrinx

10x Scorpions

10x Kabalites
+ splinter cannon
+ blaster

5x Corsairs
1x Falcon
+ EML
+ holofield

3x Wasps
+ 6 SL

1x Warp Hunter
+ holofield


My Voidborn Eldar Corsairs

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Offline greenmtvince

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2012, 06:23:46 PM »
The Kabalites are just hoofing it?  Looking forward to the battle report.  I still owe one.

I just affixed the first of my 400 pt combat patrol to their Dragonforge bases and took advantage of some nice weather to lay down a coat of primer.  I'm hoping to have these guys all painted up by the 7th for a combat patrol tournament. 

Offline Khorne25

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2012, 06:37:58 PM »
The Kabalites are just hoofing it?  Looking forward to the battle report.  I still owe one.

Im beginning to incline towards Mech-Foot because of the board sizes in my club. Transports are a waste if Im not going on the offensive and often the mobility it affords me is redundant due to time constraints (but not always board size).

It was a fairly uneventful game, I won contesting two objectives and holding only one out of a possible three objectives. Opfor was Tau with Warriors, one Devilfish, two Crisis Suits and a two squads of Stealth Suits. He had a bad day and was fairly unlucky. Warp Hunter tore chunks out of him and the Wasps darted in and out slaughtering troops.

PS: Id like an after-action report and assessment on the Phoenix and Nightwing because Im very interested in the performance of either. Im considering buying some Razorwing Jetfighters for my DE and proxying them as Nightwings.


My Voidborn Eldar Corsairs

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Offline greenmtvince

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 09:04:00 AM »
Here's the short version on those 2:

Nightwing - I either haven't figured out how to use it right, it suffers from painted model syndrome (it's a nice bright sea blue and green with a pink seahorse on the nose, picked it up second hand) or it's one of the few skimmers in a mostly infantry list.  In the several games I've used it at 1500 and 1850, it's only ever accounted for a single Killa Kan.  That said, in the weird meta I play in, the only time it encountered AV13+ was against the sisters, I brought it on from my board edge, was 4" short to engage the exorcist, and then on the following turn it hit the flimsy AV10 with 3 or 4 Krak Missiles and it exploded.  I haven't written it off yet, but I just don't see the heavy armour threats that justify taking one.  Mathematically, it should be superior to a Pulse Hornet against Rhinos, the catch is you have to get it into 24" to use the Shuriken Cannons, which is generally all kinds of a bad idea.

You may need to proxy your own and give it a try since my results are not generalizeable.

Phoenix - Somewhat points inefficient.  I've only thrown it down for the 1850 tournament, and I think larger games is where it will remain.  Game one it came in from reserves two turns from the end. It's first turn, it did a number on a squad of devastators clumped up in cover from 48".  The second turn I had to waste it's firepower to clear a single scout marine off an objective, and it was all for nought because my corsair squad holding an objective decided that it was time to run.  In Game two I got the phoenix on turn two.  On it's first turn it cracked open a sisters Rhino with the Pulse laser, next turn the Nightfire Missiles scored some obscene amount of hits on the dominion or sisters squad bunched up in the crater of their former ride (I think every blast caused 4 or 5 hits) and then the following turn it whittled a squad of seraphim down to one.  It took a lot of fire that game.  Game three against footslogging orks, it came in on turn 3, but by that point most of the board was covered in greenskins.  Every deployment option was bad, bringing me within 24" of shootas.  It did manage to cut a 30 boy mob down to 14.  I was ready for the reprisal from the shootas, but a single lucky rokkit brought it down.

While the results might not sound impressive, given that the Phoenix was on the board for maybe 6 of 14 game turns, I think it did pretty well.  It's why I mentioned in my initial AAR that I really need to deploy it on the table rather than holding it in reserves.  I suspect it will work even better when I have my bullet sponge and two warp hunters to take some of the heat off it. 


The Tau player's lineup seems like a really bad matchup for what you were throwing down.  A pair of broadsides with SMS would have made a world of a difference over the stealthsuits methinks.  That or going more Fireknife Crisis heavy...Ah just thinking of how I would've done it makes me want a Tau army again...

Offline Radium

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2012, 12:48:04 PM »
Phoenix - Somewhat points inefficient.

Sadly, pretty much everything in a FW list is that way.

The upside is the Phoenix (especially with Starcannons and Nightfire Missiles) can throw down quite a lot of firepower, but it's really fragile. The best way to ensure it's survival is to present the opponent with multiple targets (falcons, warp hunters, nightwings, phoenixes, hornets, wasps), or stay in reserves and hope for a devastating entry. Since we don't have any reserve manipulation the first option seems the best to me, even though most of the stuff is too expensive to actually get enough targets on the board.

I'll hopefully get around to actually playing with my corsairs in 2 weeks, so I should be able to share my own experiences with you all by then.
Knowledge is power; guard it well.


Offline greenmtvince

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2012, 10:36:11 AM »
Just to change up the discussion a bit. 

I wanted to share some work of my fellow Sky Raider, Nigel.  He's come up with the formula to do a nice scheme and has been posting pics to the FW Facebook page that have been a constant inspiration to me as I assemble my army and get it ready for paint.


His gallery of Sky Raiders and Mymeara Eldar is available on flickr

Offline Zilverscale

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Re: Corsair POC
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2012, 01:24:31 AM »
Looking good!!!

Sorry been a bit inactive lately, busy painting for an upcomming tourny and shuffling about some with my orks ^.^

Great reads though :)

PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 


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