40K Online
EldarOnline => Harlequins, Exodites, and Corsairs => Topic started by: Lord Ulthanash on October 31, 2010, 04:22:42 PM
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Perhaps this belongs more in the Projects section, but if so a mod can move it...
Before I begin, I am aware that there is a pdf of sorts up for pirates/corsairs, HOWEVER that is based off of old Rogue Trader stuff, old fluff, etc...
I'm interested in creating a new, unified codex for eldar corsairs/pirates (I will stick to corsairs, because it sounds awesome) for eldar corsair users of 40konline to use in friendly matches. I want this to be a fair, BALANCED list for use in games with friends.
This was largely brought on by the upcoming release of the dark eldar, and I was thinking that there could be some amazing modelling opportunities for a corsair fleet by mixing bitz from both CWE and DE.
Anyway, I'm thinking that pirate fleets would be based largely off of the eldar codex, with LIMITED dark eldar wargear based on the idea that some trade and/or interaction goes on with the Dark Kin while walking the path of damnation ;)
The way I see eldar are generally a fast army with powerful firepower and specialization
and dark eldar as a very fast army that is very combat based.
I'd think eldar corsairs would be a sort of mid-way point, moderately fast, able to put on the fire power and the close combat, but without the same degree of specialization (lack of aspect warriors) and not to the same level
Do not have the dark eldar codex, but I glimpsed through it on friday at my local shop, when I finally get my hands on it I will be able to go through with it in more detail, until then, this stuff is all going to be based on the eldar codex.
I think the general structure a corsair fleet would follow is:
HQ:
Fleet Admiral / Commodore (possibly represented by Autarch, Archon, or some combination of the two): the big bad boy on the ship(s), has the choicest wargear (DE and Eldar armories?) best skills, superior tactics, etc...
First Lieutenant (Captain?): The idea is basically the same, except he's in charge of one ship - in game turns it would be the lower point version of the admiral, less wargear options, slightly less skilled, etc...
ELITES:
Admiral's Bodyguards: possibly modeled around Incubi or Warlocks (without psychic powers). These are the elite pirates, the guys who have been through thick and thin and know what they're doing.
Corsair Specialists: As corsair fleets lack aspect warriors, they're going to half to get those dedicated units (tank destruction, combat) elsewhere. I'm thinking specialists - pirates who are so in love with one method of battle that is what they stick to. One set statline, but with different wargear options (effective for the entire unit) that sets them apart. I'm thinking one type of specialist group armed with meltas or flamers, and another armed with chainsword/power weapon + pistol
Elite Specialist: Essentially an exarch, access to more specialized wargear (not to the degree of a lieutenant or admiral)
Harlequins - they deal with the dark eldar as well as the eldar, so I don't see why they wouldn't have an occasional dealing with corsairs.
TROOPS:
rangers - they walk th epath of damnation = they could be working for a pirate fleet as well. the same as in the codex.
Eldar Corsairs:
the average eldar pirate. possibly a combination of dire avenger statline with kabalite warrior statline? I'm thinking each individual model could have differing weapons, so one person in the unit may be rocking out with pistol + cc weapon while another has a shuriken catupult and another has some dark eldar weaponry. The dark eldar weaponry should be limited by a ratio to the squad size, representing the rarity of such weapons. Debating the fluffiness with myself about heavy weapons - yes/no?
FAST ATTACK:
some combination of jetbikes with reaver jetbikes could be fluffy and viable, yes? Perhaps a ratio to the unit size allowing laser lances.
debating if it would be possible for a regular unit of corsairs to get access to warp spider warp packs. Somehow I doubt it. If so they would not have the warp spiders 3+ save.
TRANSPORTS:
we'd have to design a name for it, as I do not think using a raider, ravager, falcon or wave serpent would be fluffy. Definitely a fast skimmer, possibly open topped. Maybe something like
Front Armor
12
Side Armor
11
Rear Armor
10
with a back turret similar to the vypers? the back turret and gun mounted under the hull?
HEAVY SUPPORT:
no idea. war walkers, but with some possible DE weaponry?
support weapon batteries, but the crew are eldar corsairs, not guardians. updated stats and point cost to reflect this.
EDIT:
there could be possible limitations, like maximum 1 falcon/fire prism / wave serpent, that they purchased/took with them from the craftworld.
I think any form of wraithguard or wraithlord would be unfluffy. No bonesingers to create such a body, etc...
EDIT 2:
I'm not aiming for a type of Eldritch Raider thing, which was essentially craftworld eldar in exile (according to today's fluff) but an honest, bad-to-the-bones, corsair fleet. REALLY walking that path of damnation
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In the sticky there is the old Eldar Pirate-codex that we made here. perhaps it can inspire you as to the layout of the old RT Eldar Pirate list.
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so I took a peek at the old EO pirate-list, it was very useful.
I don't generally like the idea of having a genuine 'psyker' amongst pirates, as the fluff has generally dictated that walking the path of the seer takes a long time - not leaving much time for the path of damnation. warlock powers I may think about adding, but not farseer powers. A lot of this will be a combination of my own ideas with Rasmus' list.
HQ:
Fleet Admiral - 65 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 4 3 6 3 10 3+
May take up to 100 points of wargear (what exactly counts as pirate wargear will be defined at a later date).
- independent character
- master strategist
- fleet of foot
- fearless
Retinue
1 - 10 models
A Fleet Admiral MUST take a Retinue into battle. This Retinue is comprised of his senior captains, their lieutenants, and any senior/distinguished pirate in the fleet.
Pirate Veteran - 15 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 5 1 9 4+
Pirate Lieutenant - 25 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 4 3 2 5 2 9 4+
Pirate Captain - 35 points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 4 3 2 5 3 9 3+
One model in the Retinue MUST be upgraded to a Pirate Captain. The Pirate Captain is allowed up to 65 points of wargear from the pirate armory.
Up to two models in the Retinue must be upgraded to a Pirate Lieutenant. The pirate lieutenant is allowed up to 35 points of wargear from the pirate armory.
Pirate veteran's are permitted up to 20 points of wargear from the pirate armory.
that's all for today.
EDIT:
still in production, taking a long look through the new DE dex to see if there is any information and/or weaponry that can be of use to corsairs.
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Love this idea - just a thought... maybe instead of good armour saves (3+ or better), have increased toughness, so maybe wargear that increases toughness? To represent that the corsairs have a bit of a motley assortment of weapons/armour, and then maybe some inuln saves with wargear.
Just a suggestion, as I think it might fit with the corsair theme
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Just a question, not really sure what makes pirate leaders the toughest and strongest of the Eldar? Why the S and T 4? No eldar has that, cept for Phoenix Lords (and Eldrad has the same T for some reason...).
Also, basic trooper stats would be easy to come up with, probaby 8 points a pop,
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 5+
Not quite as battle hardened as the dark eldar, not quite as disciplined as the eldar, but they're around the same because in the end, they're still eldar.
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Just a question, not really sure what makes pirate leaders the toughest and strongest of the Eldar? Why the S and T 4? No eldar has that, cept for Phoenix Lords (and Eldrad has the same T for some reason...).
Also, basic trooper stats would be easy to come up with, probaby 8 points a pop,
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 5+
Not quite as battle hardened as the dark eldar, not quite as disciplined as the eldar, but they're around the same because in the end, they're still eldar.
I think your suggested statline is too weak for the pirates, but then again these guys aren't meant to be Space Marines. I'd be more inclined to say:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8 5+
this way their I, Ld and Sv are different from the Veteran's, but their actual 'skill' is more or less the same. More talented than guardians, less talented than avengers. I'd say around 10 points per model. With the 'eldar' things (S, T) they are the same as avengers, DE, guardians.
The idea was that S4 and T4 was the result of the pirates having arcane and specialized wargear (either traded or raided from the Imperium, Tau, etc...) but I guess this can be done better through equipment and upgrades and wargear.
But I had the idea today that the pirates would not be as specialized when it came to close combat as the craftworld eldar are. so instead of having a specialized squad that deals with hordes, armored infantry, etc... (like scorpions, banshees) the combat specialists would all be in one unit, but armed slightly differently. does anyone else agree or no?
I was thinking armed with pistol + cc weapon, but the cc weapons could be upgraded with:
scorpion chainsword
power weapon
and the veteran could choose between a:
singing spear
witchblade
diresword
There would have to be a limit on those last three per pirate army or points, considering that the first two are psyker weapons (indicating that before the veteran went rogue he had walked the path of the seer) and diresword being rare (I can imagine).
EDIT:
profile like:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 3 3 1 5 1 9 4+
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I don't see why their weapon and ballistic skills would be as good as an aspect warrior's, who has been training rigidly on the path of the warrior. I would say for basic pirates keep basic guardian stats. They're pirates, not super soldiers. Remember that even retired aspect warriors who no longer walk the path (but still have that past experience) have guardian stats. It's a credit to the Eldar race that their basic stats are as good as a standing army like the imperial guard.
Pirate captains, of course, can have improved stats, similar to aspect warriors or even exarchs for a high level captain. However, I would steer clear of giving them aspect warrior-specific or seer weapons. So steer clear of things like the scorpion chain swords, dire swords, and witch blades. More standard weapons would be fine, like standard chain swords, shuriken catapults or pistols, fusion guns or pistols, flamers, even power swords for captains. If you want strength boosts, going with two handed CCW's that grant +1 S (and of course take away that +1 A) would work fine. Even a two handed power weapon that gives +1 S would be fine for a captain, if you fancied that. I would definitely recommend mixing up their weapon load outs to reinforce the fact that they're a bunch of individuals and not a uniformly armed military unit.
Giving them the freedom to mix and match standard weapons, special weapons, and close combat weapons would give them a versatility that regular guardians don't have, and even with a similar statline you can see the kinds of benefits you can gain from arming them this way.
Since you're using pirates but will have guardian equivalent units, coming up with unique and exotic pieces of gear that simulate certain warlock powers would be a good way to enhance the units, too. They're pirates, so making up gear that they've supposedly looted or traded would give the army more fluff, as well as utility. Give the captain of one unit a stealth device to give a conceal type of effect, or targeters to add to to hit rolls, or whatever. Go crazy. But limit it to one of these rarer upgrades per unit.
And if you want crazy stats... make up special characters! Then nobody can nay say your choices.
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But if this is a genuine pirate force that is continuously raiding, why WOULDNT the pirates be skilled at fighting? I'd think that in some respects continuous pirate raids would be better warrior training than the path of the warrior.
the problem I think here is that we have such drastic differences in how pirate fleets are portrayed. Some are just guardians-in-exile, while others are borderline DE (without the soul absorption and maniacal torturing). I want to craft units that could be used for both. I'll have to do some thinking and come back.....
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I guess I envision pirates being more of a rag tag motley assortment of characters. So no real formal training, just training in the field, so to speak. Most pirates would be of this category, so the basic stats would suit them fine and keep them cheap so you could field a bunch of them.
True, after raiding a lot some pirates would become much more skilled and tough, and learn some low down underhanded tricks. I see these experienced pirates as being the squad leaders. However, I see no reason why you couldn't do teams of "Grizzled" Pirates as elite units who represent pirates that do have vastly more experience than the greener units, or even specialists, such as units of pirates who are into blowing things up or pirate gangs who ride jetbikes, etc.
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Yeah that sounds good Bourhgen. Also you could have maybe sort of 'mixed' squads. As I envisage pirates as using a motley assortment of weapons, maybe you could give them (or atleast the Elites) and assortment of Eldar special weapons from every aspect... so you could have like a whole squad with scorpion's claw or something (obviously there would be a price for this so wouldnt be overpowerful - maybe a price that increases the more of the same weapon you take?). It would be pretty awesome IMO seeing a whole squad with Claws... just see the look on your opponents face as they walk up to their prized Venerable Dreadnought ;D
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Yeah that sounds good Bourhgen. Also you could have maybe sort of 'mixed' squads. As I envisage pirates as using a motley assortment of weapons, maybe you could give them (or atleast the Elites) and assortment of Eldar special weapons from every aspect... so you could have like a whole squad with scorpion's claw or something (obviously there would be a price for this so wouldnt be overpowerful - maybe a price that increases the more of the same weapon you take?). It would be pretty awesome IMO seeing a whole squad with Claws... just see the look on your opponents face as they walk up to their prized Venerable Dreadnought ;D
Nah, I don't think a price increase per weapon would be needed, as long as the price was pretty high to start with, so taking more than one or two would be too many points. Look at something like Marine Vanguards, Space Wolf Wolf Guard or Blood Angels Death Company. Every model can take something like a Thunder Hammer, but it would be ridiculous to do so.
On that note, something like the regular troops, could say that they can be armed with various guns for modeling purposes, but they count as something for simplicity sake. No point in wasting a bunch of time firing some S4 AP5 gun on some, S3 AP5 guns on some, S4 AP4 guns on others sorta thing, lot of time wasted trying to figure out what's going on, then when it comes to wound allocation as well. I'm thinking back to the Eye of Terror codex for mutants with firearms for what I'm talking about. As for stats for their guns, I think they should have something unique to them, they're not going to be investing in shuriken tech, lack of wraithbone, and they're probably not going to be using splinter tech either. I'm thinking something like either 24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire, or 18" S4 AP6 Assault 1 or some combination of the 2, hell, something unique, 18" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire?
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Yeah that sounds good Bourhgen. Also you could have maybe sort of 'mixed' squads. As I envisage pirates as using a motley assortment of weapons, maybe you could give them (or atleast the Elites) and assortment of Eldar special weapons from every aspect... so you could have like a whole squad with scorpion's claw or something (obviously there would be a price for this so wouldnt be overpowerful - maybe a price that increases the more of the same weapon you take?). It would be pretty awesome IMO seeing a whole squad with Claws... just see the look on your opponents face as they walk up to their prized Venerable Dreadnought ;D
Nah, I don't think a price increase per weapon would be needed, as long as the price was pretty high to start with, so taking more than one or two would be too many points. Look at something like Marine Vanguards, Space Wolf Wolf Guard or Blood Angels Death Company. Every model can take something like a Thunder Hammer, but it would be ridiculous to do so.
On that note, something like the regular troops, could say that they can be armed with various guns for modeling purposes, but they count as something for simplicity sake. No point in wasting a bunch of time firing some S4 AP5 gun on some, S3 AP5 guns on some, S4 AP4 guns on others sorta thing, lot of time wasted trying to figure out what's going on, then when it comes to wound allocation as well. I'm thinking back to the Eye of Terror codex for mutants with firearms for what I'm talking about. As for stats for their guns, I think they should have something unique to them, they're not going to be investing in shuriken tech, lack of wraithbone, and they're probably not going to be using splinter tech either. I'm thinking something like either 24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire, or 18" S4 AP6 Assault 1 or some combination of the 2, hell, something unique, 18" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire?
I wanted to give them all sorts of different weapons, but you're right about it eventually reaching a point of ridiculousness. But if we do some general brainstorming, the weapons that the average eldar pirate *could* have would be:
shuriken catapult
splinter rifle
lasgun (I believe this was a normal eldar weapon back in rogue trader anyway)
I'd think an 18" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire would be most appropriate. Eldar and DE usually wound marines on 4+ (S4 or poison) and the S4 would maintain this, but at the same time they'd only get 2 shots at 9" and 1 shot at 18" putting them in between the skill of guardians and avengers.
At the same time, I'm tempted to allow them heavy weapons, but at the same time I'm torn. I know that DE to some extent get the ability to take heavy weapons (splinter cannon, shredder, etc...) and I see no reason why a pirate would particularly care about what he was armed with.
I think granting them access to some exotic weaponry would be cool, but nothing too fancy (1, they are rare, 2, why would the average pirate get to keep the best loot?).
Perhaps the first thing I should do before creating the actual units is work on the armoury.
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I'd think an 18" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire would be most appropriate. Eldar and DE usually wound marines on 4+ (S4 or poison) and the S4 would maintain this, but at the same time they'd only get 2 shots at 9" and 1 shot at 18" putting them in between the skill of guardians and avengers.
Nah, rapid fire is always set at 12" for double tap range.
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If you look at my earlier post, I had mentioned weapon assorted goodness, but as Marshall pointed out, it would bog down the game. Hadn't thought about that, and that sort of thing might've worked better back in 2nd edition than in 5th.
That rapid fire weapon seems like it would do the trick. Name it something generic like "Pirate Rifle" and then you can design them to all look different but have the same stats. Kind of like Ork Shootas or Blastas. That way your pirates can still look like a motley assorted bunch but would still be easy to manage in game.
Letting a few pirates take fusion guns or flamers wouldn't make things too complicated, so I think that would probably be alright. But again, I wouldn't make a habit of giving them aspect warrior-specific weapons.
I also agree about a team full of power fists/claws/gloves. The points costs are the points costs, and there are drawbacks included. I thought about this when trying to design a new aspect warrior. If all the models are armed with power gloves, they'd be pretty expensive, they'd always attack last, and wouldn't benefit from the extra attack in close combat.
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Nah, rapid fire is always set at 12" for double tap range.
you're right. However the basic principle is the same, at 12 inches they're equivalent to guardians, and they can go above this, but not quite to the level of avengers.
That rapid fire weapon seems like it would do the trick. Name it something generic like "Pirate Rifle" and then you can design them to all look different but have the same stats. Kind of like Ork Shootas or Blastas. That way your pirates can still look like a motley assorted bunch but would still be easy to manage in game.
Letting a few pirates take fusion guns or flamers wouldn't make things too complicated, so I think that would probably be alright. But again, I wouldn't make a habit of giving them aspect warrior-specific weapons.
I also agree about a team full of power fists/claws/gloves. The points costs are the points costs, and there are drawbacks included. I thought about this when trying to design a new aspect warrior. If all the models are armed with power gloves, they'd be pretty expensive, they'd always attack last, and wouldn't benefit from t
I don't think they should be getting aspect specific gear at all, but thats different from certain weapons. power swords are banshees yes, but you can still find a powersword in other units. I'd say specific wargear and weapons (warp jump generators, hawk wings, scorpions claw, etc...) pirates would not have access to, but more generic things they would.
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I love this idea! I play both Eldar & Dark Eldar and base the fluff around Corsairs/freed Craftworld slaves from Commarragh.
I think a good fluff base to start with would be mercenaries. Corsairs are rampant in the fluff of both Codecies (Duke Sliscus & Yriel come to mind) and they tend to visit Craftworld & Commorragh. Many Dark Eldar are mercenaries (Trueborn, Incubi, Scourges) and many Eldar suffer from 'wonder lust' (Rangers).
Using this basis, you could easily just "rip-off" most units. Also many unit have direct counter parts, whether in fluff, stats & rules, or niche.
For example:
Incubi-Scorpion, Bloodbrides-Banshees, Scourges-Hawks, Wyches-Storm Guardians,
Dire Avengers/Gaurdians-Kabalites, Fire Dragons-Trueborn, Archon-Autarch,
Reavers-Guardian Jetbikes, Wraithlords-Talos/Cronos, etc.
I think you get the point. I am not saying to copy-and-paste, but to merely find those archetypes from each book and "average" their stats & costs.
On to Transports. I do not think Corsairs would have AV12 transports as those are made of Wraithbone grown on Craftworlds. I do think they would have higher than AV10, as they don't rely on WWPs like Dark Eldar. AV11/11/10 open topped sounds great to me.
Since they ply the Void, I think it would be cool for them to use vehicle upgrades that count them as close-topped. That way they could have the best of both, being open-topped for purposes of passengers shooting & assaulting, yet closed-top to prevent the +1 to damage.
I also don't see them using Walkers or MC's. Unlike Craftworld & Dark Eldar, Corsairs do not use the Webway. Any large creatures/vehicle incapable of anti-grav motion would have to be transported manually: something Eldar would think too crude to do.
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I just read through this and want to point out the the reason Eldrad has a higher toughness is because he is so old he started to turn to crystal. This was explain years ago when he was initially released. Farseers bodies turn to crystal when they reach extreme age then their soul enters the Infinity Circuit.
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I guess we will all be happy when Imperial Armour 11 comes out. Rumors say they will be in it. I haven't bought IA books in years, so i don't know if we are only to see a couple of units or a fully playable armylist with models.
If all else fails, one can still mix DE Warriors and CWE Guardians as Corsair Models etc.
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You said that it would be a mixture of DE and Eldar but wouldn't be as fast. I feel like a Pirate army should be played as extremely fast and Shooty, I don't think they would be as inclined to cc and if they were they would probably fight dirty and risky (Pirates, right?). They should have lots of fast open-topped skimmers like DE, But with the Shooty of the Eldar, built up around lots of hit and run attacks.
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Count me in the BS/WS 4 camp. Eldar and eldar pirates have historically had that level of skill. The reason guardiqns don't is that they are comppetely untrained, inexperienced levies.
Fluff I'm familiar with includes pirates using the webway. pirate psykers, and pirates using shuriken catapults and walkers.
Psykers: Fluff spends. a lot of attention on Eldar being particularly prone to warp perils, and the path system as a means of protection from the warp. I would like to see pirate psykers be especially vulnerable to perils (say, 2, 11, or 12).
Weapons: Shuriken weapons are appropriate. Given the evolution of SCs over GW's history, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make a variant. Older pirate models carried heqvy weapons, and I think they'd be appropriate. It'd be cool to have individually armed models, and wouldn't reallybe much of a headache, because there'dbe no real incentive to arm models with different small arms. I can imagine a lot of power weapons and invuln saves ( refractor fields) with a few meltas and flamers. It'd be hard to include much in the way of alien wargear, outside of special characters, because it'd either end up useless or de rigeur, and it'd be hard to leep it feeling special. I would stay away from exarch weapons with occasional exceptions (EML, maybe sun rifle) but power fists would be fine.
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I've been so busy the last couple of months, but I'm still doing this guys, and I'm happy enthusiasm has grown while I was away.
@Saim-Hann Corsair
I agree that the transport would be AV 11-11-10, fast, skimmer, open topped. I think there would be two variants of this, a transport that holds 10 models and a gunship (im thinking of a combination of a raider/ravager and a vyper).
I don't know about letting them get the best of both worlds for the vehicle though. If this is to be used then opponents can't feel like its over powered.
I think walkers may be used occasionally, for scouting, but I agree no monstrous creatures/ or wraith units.
@KiiwanRakahari
It will be extremely fast, but not as fast as the DE. Eldar and Dark Eldar already are capable of running rings around opponents, but I'm thinking corsairs would sacrifice some of the DE speed for a little more protection on their vehicles. See above vehicle idea. As for shooty vs. close combat, I'd rather have a codex that can be used to kit units the way an individual wants.
@nil
I just can't see a Farseer just getting up and leaving a Craftworld. The only psykers would be at Warlock level, once walked the path of the Seer, then left. Maybe invent some other warlock powers. As warlocks don't need to take psychic tests, maybe create a system where every turn you roll a D6 and on a roll of a 4/5+ they have to take a perils of the warp test. That way they are still just as likely to survive a perils, but it would happen more frequently (as they aren't as trained).
For the regular squad (say 10 men) 2 of them could replace the 'pirate rifle' created earlier with a flamer or melta at X points, and 1 model could replace his pirate rifle with a heavy weapon.
The assault sqauds of pirates would be armed with cc weapons + pistol and 2 models could replace them with a flamer or melta at X points (like storm guardians). They cannot take a heavy weapon, but an additional 1 - 2 models could replace the cc weapon and pistol with a special close combat weapon.
Alternatively, following the idea that pirates don't really get to pick and choose what they're armed with, it could be that the regular squad of pirates has the choice of either a pirate rifle or a pistol and cc weapon. 4 models in the unit would then be allowed to upgrade to either a flamer, melta, special close combat weapon or heavy weapon. While this would be fluffy, I think it game terms it would be to much and the unit wouldn't be very effective at doing anything.
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Count me in the BS/WS 4 camp. Eldar and eldar pirates have historically had that level of skill. The reason guardiqns don't is that they are comppetely untrained, inexperienced levies.
In correct, historically common pirates have had weapon and ballistic skills of three. Nor are guardians completely untrained or inexperienced levies. Every Craftworld Eldar are trained in the basics of battle. If you want something untrained to compare to. Look at the Imperial Guard's conscripts. Don't try saying that Eldar are so uber that they should be able to out match a common Guard infantry soldier. Skills of three is the standard for trained soldiers. Four is reserved for the elite trained and experienced. Any higher is reserved for extraordinary skill with several campaigns worth of experience.
editing was ninja'd by Ulthanash
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Count me in the BS/WS 4 camp. Eldar and eldar pirates have historically had that level of skill. The reason guardiqns don't is that they are comppetely untrained, inexperienced levies.
In correct, historically common pirates have had weapon and ballistic skills of three.
I'm thinking that as pirates are fighting frequently, they'd have increased skill in the area they choose to go in. Therefore shooty pirates WS 3 BS 4, and cc pirates WS 4 BS 3
I think we agree on
S 3 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 Ld 8 Sv 5+ (with some sort of upgrade possibly to make it 4+, akin to carapace armor)
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Ulthanash: no, of course, no warlocks, and definitely no farseers, but that doesn't mean that psykers aren't common.
Siranaul: The eldar of RT, who were all pirates and mercenaries, all had BS and WS equal to that of a space marine. When an Eldar's main job is killing things, they settle into this profile. When an Eldar's main job is to be a poet, or a cook, or whatever, they settle into the guardian profile. I believe that pirates belong in the former camp rather than the latter. There's still room for new recruits with guardian profiles though.
I'm not sure what you're saying about guard-- yes, I am saying that trained Eldar are superior to trained humans. I'm surprised that there's any sense that they shouldn't be. 3 is the standard for human professional military, just as 4 is for eldar, and 2 is for some races (tau, irks).
Edit: Ultha, I recently posted my vision of Eldar raiders/mercs/pirates to the forge. Rather than a complete collection of what is and isn't allowed, it is a single elites option, with a morass of special characters that make the corsairs troops, so it's not exactly what you're going after, but it might be worth some ideas. My own ideas have been influenced by a wide variety of pirate armies and home-grown lists-- entirely too many to list. I'm sure I included entirely too much text, but the basic pirate unit is at the very top:
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=211707.0 (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=211707.0)
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I actually love this idea. for some reason im thinking about the codex structure similarly to the IG codex. where you have the fleet admiral with his leitenants(sp), each of which get their own transport ship to command. then the transport ship can be given a crew, maybe be accompanied by a venom-esque gunboat if they pay for it(or have gunboat squad be elite choices.
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That was my original idea in the earlier stages of conception, I may go back to it. Anyway, this project is not dead or on hold, I'm slowly putting together a word document. When its all done I'll post it up here for review, and slowly we can get a finished product together.
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I think you should include prince yriel of iyanden and duke slicus the serpent as special characters in the codex, as they are corsair eldar, from both sides of the the good vs evil sides.
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On the subject of a pirate Psyker, fluff wise it's really kinda hard to believe. The path of the Seer is the longest most enduring path of all the Eldar aspect, and like mentioned, I don't just see them getting up and running off to be pirates. furthermore without the infinity circuit and spirirt stones/ghosthelms and what not that is common to eldar psykers, they suffer a grave danger to perils of the warp. Most Eldar would not risk themsleves to slannesh that way, as an unchecked rogue psyker is just asking to get attacked from the warp. There is one idea I think might be feasible, as well as adding flavor to a corsair codex. You could have a special Hero Psyker for the army. Some named guy synonymous with pirate activity, who had found some array of items to help protect him from the warp (represented in wargear) that perhaps he had taken from other eldar or space marines or who knows what. He would probably be more combat inclined than Eldar farseers, and he wouldn't be as good as them in his abilities, but still a decent character adding plenty of tricks and tactics to the army. Just a thought ;)
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I disagree regarding psykers. Farseers and warlocks are not the only Eldar psykers. There are numerous mentions of Eldar being psykers with frequency; there's a fluff mention I'm thinking of that talks about Eldar using psychic powers in pursuit of their current path. Technicians using psychokinesis for fine manipulation, doctors using empathic powers, that sort of thing.
If anything, the craftworld path system works to limit Eldar psychic potential. If you choose to see pirates as akin to Rangers, walking some sort of strictly defined outcast path, then there might be some ground for limiting psykers. I think of pirates as pathless Eldar who have abandoned Craftworld philosophy. That's part of what makes them so mercurial, and, yes, prone to risk-taking. Risk-seeking behavior-- thrill-seeking behavior-- is key to everything written about pirates so far, so I don't see "Slaanesh might swallow my soul" to be much deterrent to pirates.
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If anything, the craftworld path system works to limit Eldar psychic potential. If you choose to see pirates as akin to Rangers, walking some sort of strictly defined outcast path, then there might be some ground for limiting psykers. I think of pirates as pathless Eldar who have abandoned Craftworld philosophy. That's part of what makes them so mercurial, and, yes, prone to risk-taking. Risk-seeking behavior-- thrill-seeking behavior-- is key to everything written about pirates so far, so I don't see "Slaanesh might swallow my soul" to be much deterrent to pirates.
The Eldar Path system allows the Seers to focus on little else other than psychic potential. If anything, Eldar that do not adhere to the Path allow the distractions around them to lessen their focus on psychic potential.
The majority of pirates are young Craftworld Eldar that often return to their home after time spent as a pirate.
You are underestimating the fear and hate that ALL Eldar have for Slaanesh. Every Eldar must either have the protection of a spirit stone, live a life dedicated to the Laughing God, or dwell in the webway the majority of their lives. Any Eldar that would ignore the danger to their very soul that Slaanesh presents will not live long. Or becomes tainted and turned into a chaos serving Eldar.
But then again you'll just ignore any thing you don't want and try to deny what is written in the codex with some weak excuses or disbelief everything I've said.
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Slannesh is the eldar's boogey man :P the surviving exodite and craftworlds alot to fear from the warp. It's akin to Hell, except they have indisputable proof that you will go there and good deeds will not save them. As mentioned, infinity circuit or the laughing god are all the eldar have to keep there souls safe. This does not totally exclude psykers from a corsair army, but regular troops like a warlock don't seem reasonable to me. furthermore, most rangers/pirates eldar who live off the path, normally do so when young, and this would be before aspect training, which counts warlocks out. I still think a character psyker would be believable, but I don't see a bunch of warlocks getting up and deciding they want to go party for a change. just a thought. ;)
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But then again you'll just ignore any thing you don't want and try to deny what is written in the codex with some weak excuses or disbelief everything I've said.
You know, I cannot for the life of me come up with a well-intentioned reason for saying something like that.
About the most charitable interpretation would be to consider it a not-so-polite request to shut up. Guess I'm feeling indulgent today, so wish granted.
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hey guys,
I'm really interested in the idea given here.
first things first, i know little to nothing about all the fluff and story out there.
so i can't, with regrets, participate in this debate.
but when I'm thinking about a corsair fleet and pirates somethings come to mind:
its a fleet, every life is valuable and not easily replaced.
everyone has a job to fullfill within that fleet.
pirates seem open minded and should accept outcasts from all over.
i see a fast hitting army mid range that's very manoeuvrable.
are corsairs rich? can they afford a lot of big ships --> gunboats etc?
so this being said this is what came up in my mind and i would find really cool:
low model count, but a lot of small boats viper/venoms with a lot of different crew.
troops: [insert name]
must consist of 1 general, 4 troops and a transport for [set amount off points]
[general name] bs4 ws4 s3 t3 w1 i5 ld9 sv5+
[normal troop name] bs4 ws3 s3 t3 w1 i4 ld8 sv5+
[small transport] av 10/10/10
options
wargear troops:
normal gun 24" str4 ap5 rapid fire
defensive grenades for +1pt a model?
options general
heavy weapon options?
would be fun to link this to the race that is centered as a general?
DE splinter cannon, CWE reaper launcher, space marine bazooka?
options small transport
a list of options with weapons that have range till 24"?
examples: corsair cannon str5 ap4 assault2 24"
corsair melta str8 ap2 assault 1 18" melta*
and several new vehicle upgrades for corsairs?
this way its awfully divers for people to make pirate fleets. There should be a lot off small things from every army in the troops, and no fleet would be the same.
its just an idea so don't shoot me down immediately, just think about it for a bit and maybe balance it out or something? i wonder what your opinions are about this!
greets!
edit:
This diversity idea should not reflect in the rest of the army, its still an eldar corsair army. I just thought it would be awesome for the army diversity and the different weapons they might've bought at blackmarkets etc.
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i like that unit idea but i think raiders should also be included just not closed top tanks.
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ok so adding to that whole fleet idea maybe creating some hierarchy in the army
corsair fleet boss (HQ)
gives a buff or special rule to:
fleet general (elite fleet general (elite)
these give a buff or special rule based on the general choice to their smaller fleet,
pick the units for the smaller fleets before battle, these must be defided evenly
this way you get a hierarchie over 3 levels.
and when a fleet general dies, his fleet loses their buff/rule.
and when the boss loses,the entire army loses their buff/rule.
about the buffs/rules, i would say give the corsair boss 3 playstyle options. These each open 4 or 5 special rules than can be picked for the (maximum off 3) fleet generals, since there are 3 elite choices in the FOC.
And giving that this is a hierarchy i'd say the higher you climb up the ladder you get a better ship.
so in this trand i'd say give the generals raiders. So that their squads are also bigger than the troops.
And give the commander an option to choose between tank i.e., venom/raider/wave serpent/falcon.
The big boss should be able to pick his ride to direct his attack in the way he wants to.
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Have you thought about the newly released Eldar Corsair conversion kit: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ELDAR-CORSAIR-CONVERSION-KIT.html (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ELDAR-CORSAIR-CONVERSION-KIT.html)
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As my summer 2011 has now started, this project gets into full swing this coming week! All ideas are welcome, PM me or post here if you're interested. Lets get a conversation rolling!
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Well, the Dark Eldar aren`t really just Dark Eldar, they are Dark Eldar, Wyche Cults, Hellion Gangs, and Haemonculli Covens. If a group of pirates would be able to gain the "loyalty" of one of these sub-factions, I see no reason why corsairs would not be able to include units such as Wyches or Beast masters or Hellions.
Just a thought.
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Does this count as thread necromancy? I hope not; I've been inactive for a while.
With Imperial Armour 11, I've become more inspired than ever to complete this. Unfortunately I got lazy and caught up with coursework to ever give this project the attention it deserves, but I'm free now. Granted, because we have IA11, this codex has largely become unnecessary, but I feel that IA11 is too restricting in a lot of ways - it doesn't account for the variety that can be seen in a corsair fleet, and seeing as how each of us has to [largely] convert his/her own corsair force, that's really a shame. With that said, if anybody still wants this to be done, I'll be doing it for myself. I'd appreciate any ideas/thoughts/opinions anyone has, particularly if they've been inspired with some of the new rules/fluff that came out for Eldar Corsairs.