Topic: Tyranids in 6th ed

[GaleRazorwind]

Unfortunately, it appears that Fleet no longer has the effect of allowing you to charge after running, it only affects the outcome of your run/charge rolls, and if you read MTC, it specifically says it has no effect on charge rolls. On the other hand, Raveners now don't give a crap about charging into either difficult or dangerous, so they will get to strike at their normal I.

On the subject of multiple detachments at 2000 points... LMFAO! 10 Tervigons at 2500 points, anyone?? MUAHAHA 10x3D6 Termagants on turn 1! If you rolled god like (3 6's), you would spawn 180 Termagants. You could spawn up to 150 Termagants without rolling doubles (4/5/6), and with average rolling, you would probably be spawning about 110-120. Either way, you are talking about filling up the vast majority of an entire deployment zone every turn you spawn! There would even be enough points left over for a few Zoanthropes.

By comparison, Orks could field about 10 mobs of 29 boyz plus a PK Nob (for 300 boyz) with some points left over for their two HQs. So, conceivably, you could easily outnumber the Orks in about 3 turns, and the enemy would still have 10 MCs to deal with on top of all those Gants. Pretty damn crazy, huh?

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Unfortunately, it appears that Fleet no longer has the effect of allowing you to charge after running, it only affects the outcome of your run/charge rolls, and if you read MTC, it specifically says it has no effect on charge rolls. On the other hand, Raveners now don't give a crap about charging into either difficult or dangerous, so they will get to strike at their normal I.

Am I genuinely the only person to prefer Fleet now? Rather than hoping that my d6 roll turned out to be good enough (which it rarely was), I now roll 2d6 and can re-roll one or both of the dice if they're not to my liking? That seems to me to be FAR more reliable than the old system.

[Reepy]

Unfortunately, it appears that Fleet no longer has the effect of allowing you to charge after running, it only affects the outcome of your run/charge rolls, and if you read MTC, it specifically says it has no effect on charge rolls. On the other hand, Raveners now don't give a crap about charging into either difficult or dangerous, so they will get to strike at their normal I.

Am I genuinely the only person to prefer Fleet now? Rather than hoping that my d6 roll turned out to be good enough (which it rarely was), I now roll 2d6 and can re-roll one or both of the dice if they're not to my liking? That seems to me to be FAR more reliable than the old system.

I'm with you @Chuckles. Fleet is not nerfed. It's better. When you need to go somewhere you will probably as you can reroll your run. And if you need to assault you can reroll any or all of the dice. It's a very big deal. Our forces will now assault on about 10" because of the reroll. Well Hormogaunts are a bit nerfed as they already had a good run but all other fleet creatures are better now.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Actually Hormagaunts are amphetamine parrot hot now. Yes they can't run then assault, but they're still pretty likely to pull of a charge on a unit 18" away thanks to the re-roll from Fleet. And moreover, Bounding Leap and Fleet combined makes them insanely quick even when not charging. I don't know how the hell I would work out the average result of 3d6 pick the highest re-rolling any dice you like, but I can't imagine it would be much less than 5. You've got an almost guaranteed 11" of movement per turn without even bothering to charge.

[Reepy]

Actually Hormagaunts are amphetamine parrot hot now. Yes they can't run then assault, but they're still pretty likely to pull of a charge on a unit 18" away thanks to the re-roll from Fleet. And moreover, Bounding Leap and Fleet combined makes them insanely quick even when not charging. I don't know how the hell I would work out the average result of 3d6 pick the highest re-rolling any dice you like, but I can't imagine it would be much less than 5. You've got an almost guaranteed 11" of movement per turn without even bothering to charge.

Bounding leap only works for running. When you assault you have 6" for your move and two dice which you can reroll. The two dice are average of 9-10. So you can count on about 16" assault. While with the previous rules you had 12" + 5-6" You could count on 17" and even 18". Hormogaunts have lost about ~1.5" at least.

[shaten]

two dice which you can reroll. The two dice are average of 9-10.

I wonder about this, it seems that 2 dice would form a distribution curve.

[Expectation: 7 ; Variance: 5.83 ; Standard Deviation: +2.412]

why rewrite this explanation: http://www.futureaccountant.com/theory-of-expectation-random-variable/problems-solutions/throwing-rolling-dice-02.php

[Reepy]

two dice which you can reroll. The two dice are average of 9-10.

I wonder about this, it seems that 2 dice would form a distribution curve.

[Expectation: 7 ; Variance: 5.83 ; Standard Deviation: +2.412]

why rewrite this explanation: http://www.futureaccountant.com/theory-of-expectation-random-variable/problems-solutions/throwing-rolling-dice-02.php

I cannot open the site for some reason. Could you explain what you mean? Are my calculations wrong?

[shaten]

yhea is the simple answer. The average of rolling 2 dice is 7 plus minus 2, the reroll of both dice does nothing but bring the result closer to the norm. If you reroll one dice, it increases the chance of the one dice being closer to the norm. so in general your getting closer to always being 7 +- 2 ergo [5..9] instead of [9..10]. he reroll would shrink the curve so i would guess [6..8] is the number range for determining a go/no go situation for charging.

[Travellar]

ran the numbers manually this morning.

Average of 1 die: 3.5
Average of a die with reroll: 4.25
(assuming you'll keep 4s, 5s, and 6s.)
I haven't run the numbers for bounding leap yet, but last edition I believe it was 5", regardless of whether we can reroll any of those 3 dice, I doubt it will change much.

So for charge threat ranges, most units should  average about 13"
Fleet units should average about 14.5"
and Fleet units should be more prone towards landing in the middle/upper end of the curve.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

Actually Hormagaunts are amphetamine parrot hot now. Yes they can't run then assault, but they're still pretty likely to pull of a charge on a unit 18" away thanks to the re-roll from Fleet. And moreover, Bounding Leap and Fleet combined makes them insanely quick even when not charging. I don't know how the hell I would work out the average result of 3d6 pick the highest re-rolling any dice you like, but I can't imagine it would be much less than 5. You've got an almost guaranteed 11" of movement per turn without even bothering to charge.

Bounding leap only works for running. When you assault you have 6" for your move and two dice which you can reroll. The two dice are average of 9-10. So you can count on about 16" assault. While with the previous rules you had 12" + 5-6" You could count on 17" and even 18". Hormogaunts have lost about ~1.5" at least.

I know it does, I was talking about running rolls. That's why I said 3d6 pick the highrst re-rolling dice you don't like (okay I didn't say that, but I should have done).

With the previous rules you could not count on 17". Or maybe you could, but I certainly couldn't. That Hormagaunts have lost a theoretical 1.5" of movement does not bother me, since bounding leap now means my Hormagaunts are actually more likely to move quickly in turns where they're not close enough to charge, and much more reliable in terms of their charge distance.

[Travellar]

On the subject of multiple detachments at 2000 points... LMFAO! 10 Tervigons at 2500 points, anyone?? MUAHAHA 10x3D6 Termagants on turn 1! If you rolled god like (3 6's), you would spawn 180 Termagants. You could spawn up to 150 Termagants without rolling doubles (4/5/6), and with average rolling, you would probably be spawning about 110-120. Either way, you are talking about filling up the vast majority of an entire deployment zone every turn you spawn! There would even be enough points left over for a few Zoanthropes.

Well, I'm apparently 9 Tervigons and 200 Termagants short.  Using more conservative average values, I'd expect about a hundred Termagants per turn, for the first 2 turns.  Which of course will still die in droves whenever we loose a Tervigon, but who cares?

[Anglachel]

Raveners are still beasts, so they move 12" (ignoring difficult terrain, so they don't need to test), then Assaulting 2d6". Fleet makes you re-roll the 2d6" for the charge distance, or the d6" if you choose to run in the Shooting Phase, but with thies set of rules you cannot charge ever after running...

[haunt]

Well, one of my friends have never seen a Ravener Army, so gonna field test this vs BA

[shaten]

Raveners are still beasts, so they move 12" (ignoring difficult terrain, so they don't need to test), then Assaulting 2d6". Fleet makes you re-roll the 2d6" for the charge distance, or the d6" if you choose to run in the Shooting Phase, but with thies set of rules you cannot charge ever after running...

you sill swing at init 1. The rule changed it is moving through, not testing for.

[wren]

A bit out of left field perhaps, but I think I might have found a strange little boost to some of the 'nid units.

the Instinctive behaviour: Feed rule detailed on page 33 of the codex includes the Rage USR which used to determine how a unit behaved, but now it's a combat boost (B6B p41, second rule).
The upshot of this is that units with no shooting and feed will almost certainly be better outside of synapse range (in fact it may make a near synapse-less list possible, even practical).
I think that Venomthropes in particular will benefit from this one, making them not only a little more reliable in combat, but meaning tht you can have one covering hiveguard or biovores without having to worry about it wandering away from its position.

[Reepy]

A bit out of left field perhaps, but I think I might have found a strange little boost to some of the 'nid units.

the Instinctive behaviour: Feed rule detailed on page 33 of the codex includes the Rage USR which used to determine how a unit behaved, but now it's a combat boost (B6B p41, second rule).
The upshot of this is that units with no shooting and feed will almost certainly be better outside of synapse range (in fact it may make a near synapse-less list possible, even practical).
I think that Venomthropes in particular will benefit from this one, making them not only a little more reliable in combat, but meaning tht you can have one covering hiveguard or biovores without having to worry about it wandering away from its position.

It will be hard if you keep them out of synapse. People will just try to take 25% (not hard with nids) and they will run away (most likely). Maybe try and leave them off synapse only when you need the extra attacks. A tyrant with wings for a sheepherder seems good as he will be able to leave fast and far enough.

[objectionator]

One way to get around the overwatch drawback with genestealers is to charge the enemy with two units--send in the expendable gaunts or tough MC first. Since the enemy can only overwatch once per turn, they have to fire at the first unit if they want to at all. Once the first unit hits, the enemy will be locked in combat and unable to fire overwatch any more.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

One way to get around the overwatch drawback with genestealers is to charge the enemy with two units--send in the expendable gaunts or tough MC first. Since the enemy can only overwatch once per turn, they have to fire at the first unit if they want to at all. Once the first unit hits, the enemy will be locked in combat and unable to fire overwatch any more.

And this is why I love this rule. It fits the fluff so perfectly. Now we can actually have our lesser creatures (such as rippers) take the brunt of the overwatch, and then let the real attackers hit...

[Locarno]

The comment about 10 tervigons in 2500 points - yeah. Disconcertingly tempted.

Had my first game last night, stick 1000 points of a friends Crimson Imperial Fists (20 tactical marines and 20 sternguard, commanded by not-pedro-kantor).

I used 4 tervigons and 3 12-strong units of termagants. Despite losing 50-ish, I had the better part of 70 left at the end of the game. Bloody hell they're awesome...

Anyway - 6th-specific comments:

Don't be scared of overwatch unless (a) foreboding, (b) lots of flamers (e.g. burnaboyz, who will **** you up!) or (c) massive unit (20 strong sisters of battle are now not nice to assault). As noted, disposable unit of termagants or rippers to soak overwatch are both useful and particularly nid-ish.

Losing the initiative bonus from furious charge (now strength only) hurts.

Challenges are awesome - either sarge doesn't get to fight, or he faces your tervigon alone, meaning you can stab him much more effectively.

Not seen vehicles yet, but suspect smash is a git for tervigons - although I imagine that WS1 means it's not as bad as I think - going from needing a 4 or a 6 to a 3 makes up for the 2 lost attacks, and S10 with a reroll turns walkers into scrap metal pretty damn fast.

New powers - not sure if you have to replace all the powers on a single model if you replace any. Biomancy, however, seems awesome. Firstly, they're all mastery 1, so they're all in play, and you have a 50% chance of a personal augmentation that (since it's not aimed at the enemy) can't be denied. Iron Arm is scary as hell on monstrous creature with S5 T6 before you roll!

Ended up tabling the marines, including an awesome three-round challenge against not-kantor*. Both sides bruised and battered (had a picture of termagants giving shoulder massages, fanning with towels and handing out energy drinks to both sides ) when Glorious intervention actually worked (rolled a 1!) and my warlord tervigon reached up and tagged a crushing claw to the Iron Arm tervigon, who elbow-dropped in off the ropes at S8 T9 to the sound of several termagants chanting "go kraken! go kraken!", which as you might imagine cleared things up rather fast. 

Quite tempted at 1000 points to just go with 3 x tervigon & 3 x 10 termagants, plus a more expensive tervigon for the HQ - given the extra VPs for the warlord I'm thinking boosting for regeneration for him specifically isn't unwise... with six wounds there's a fair chance of getting to use it.

Stinger Salvos are as or more useful now than cluster spines, I'm thinking - the ability to snap fire with them and the ability to get precision shot probably makes up for the increased firepower's utility. Certainly it's a definite choice, rather than a near-automatic swap.


Warlord traits look cool, but the one I rolled was unfortunately fail - furious charge slightly pointless for the morph-laden tervigon. Can't decide which of the three tables looks best, actually...

* "...iiiin the red corner, weighing in at 250 kilos outside power armour, with several hundred career victories and one defeat, the hero of rynn's world, pedro kantor! In the blue corner, weighing in at four metric tonnes, just spawned earlier this afternoon, in its first professional fight, the smack 'em from kraken, the tervigon prime! I want a good clean fight, so no orbital fire and no spawning minions...."

[GaleRazorwind]

So, I have been pouring over the codex and the FAQ tonight, and have picked out a couple of very interesting points:

Frag Spines: Carnifexes get actual grenades, not just the bonus for having them. In other words, Carnifexes can "lob" their "grenades" for one of their shooting attacks. Between the "grenade" and Bio-plasma, a close combat Fex could still make use of both of its shooting attacks while remaining properly equipped. A Fex that can reroll all of its to hit rolls and all of its to wound rolls (TS) in CC that can also pop out two small blasts is suddenly a very interesting unit to consider.

Deathleaper: I think this has been mentioned, but because the Deathleaper has both Stealth and Shrouded (as per FAQ), it has a 4+ cover save in the open (hooray, they brought back the rule we lost from the last Dex, and even better!), and if 25% of him is obscured from even a single model in the firing unit, he instantly gets a 2+ save. This is a substantial increase in his survivability out in the open, and with hull points and super-rend, he is potentially quite nasty.

Onslaught: Well, here is my easter egg hunt treasure find. Read the effects of the power, paying particular attention to the final sentence, noting there is absolutely nothing in the FAQ that changes the way Onslaught works. The question then becomes how to properly interpret this "loophole". The codex presents a specific limitation on whether you can assault after being affected by Onslaught, which was based on the previous rules for Fleet. The wording of the rule basically says that the unit can assault after being Onslaught-ed if it has Fleet, and since this is a codex rule which is specifically (more-or-less) overriding the general rules in the rulebook by providing a specific way to handle the situation, it potentially gives rise to shenanigans such as: A unit of Raveners with guns moves 12", then gets Onslaught-ed, causing it to run a re-rollable D6", followed by a shooting attack, and a further re-rollable 2D6" charge that ignores Difficult and Dangerous Terrain. be-atchin'!