40K Online

The Armies of 40k => Tau Empire => Topic started by: The GrimSqueaker on May 1, 2017, 10:55:05 PM

Title: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 1, 2017, 10:55:05 PM
Back in the dawn of time I declared they didn't exist for Tau till one turned up as part of the ejected Air Caste pilot profile... ahem. Any hoo, going through editions past and present it appears that the Air Caste pilots carried one, ejected Crisis suit pilots had one tucked under, and now Sniper Drone controllers carry one as carbines are so not 7th Edition.

Taking advantage of the new pistol shoot your attacker in the face rule, think we'll see more of the line and column troops getting issued them by the most benevolent and forward thinking Earth Caste quartermasters?
Title: Re: Pistols
Post by: Wyddr on May 2, 2017, 09:46:45 AM
No. The Earth Caste just doesn't love us that much. One gun is sufficient, since you aren't supposed to be in combat, anyway.

I do hope, though, it becomes an option for Breacher teams at the least (or that Pulse Blasters work like pistols in CC). That would be extremely fluffy and also very, very helpful.
Title: Re: Pistols
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 2, 2017, 01:14:39 PM
Pulse Blasters would be the most obvious option as they are essentially shotguns in space.

Would be irritating though if no changes are made and it comes down to "nice rule, shame you can't do anything with it."
Title: Re: Pistols
Post by: Wyddr on May 2, 2017, 09:24:01 PM
Pulse Blasters would be the most obvious option as they are essentially shotguns in space.

Would be irritating though if no changes are made and it comes down to "nice rule, shame you can't do anything with it."

That *is* the story of the Tau in the assault phase, though. Well, this past edition excepted.
Title: Re: Pistols
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 2, 2017, 09:31:16 PM
Well, perhaps the Shas'ui may access a pistol so they could at least dramatically shout "stand back people, I'll protect you" before being turned into mulch.
Title: Re: Pistols
Post by: Wyddr on May 3, 2017, 01:11:03 PM
In general, I'm interested to see what happens with the Tau in 8th. I generally think every army is going to see the end of a lot of tentpole special rules. Like, what will happen if we lose jetpack movement? Egads!
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 3, 2017, 03:44:45 PM
(Topic modification, we don't need a new thread)

Jet Packs are going to be an interesting read. Same with how drones are going to be treated. Will drones count for the new Morale rules? If they don't will there be casualty removal shenanigans from the usual suspects? Supporting fire and overwatch with regards to Tau as well.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 3, 2017, 03:52:25 PM
One thing I noted is that vehicles no longer have relentless and I was sad for the Tau.

Then I remembered that Burst Cannons, Fusion Blasters, Missile Pods, and Pulse Carbines are all Assault weapons, so, assuming those still exist, most Tau light vehicles will still be running and gunning. My Piranha are happy! And also probably a *little* more durable!

Sucks for SMS, though. And Raiguns, obvi.

But then, you don't know what special rule shenanigans will show up. What is going to happen to Skimmers? No idea at all--not even a rumor.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 3, 2017, 08:31:17 PM
Be interesting to see what happens with Markerlights. They're a big part of the Tau identity so I highly doubt they'll be removed. D is out so that one doesn't work. The bonus to hit rolls can be easily transitioned, the cover removal aspect is gone, seeker missiles are an easy addition.

If Tau get their mercenaries in the main codex/war scroll there may even be a psychic phase.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 4, 2017, 09:04:57 AM
Dude, Demiurg are *not* going to happen. Stop trying to make them a thing.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 4, 2017, 12:46:22 PM
I have them in BFG. You just need to believe...
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 4, 2017, 03:55:01 PM
I have them in BFG. You just need to believe...

Not gonna happen. All the money these days is in giant freaking robots that have guns bolted to their other guns on top of their missiles.

Psychic balloon aliens? Nope.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 4, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
You're thinking of the Nicassar, who are also in BFG. The Demiurg are the NOT AT ALL SPACE DWARVES.

The Nicassar are stated as not even slightly liking the idea of a gravity well but I'd still like them to be a kind of palanquin or Dune navigator in a tank addition.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 5, 2017, 08:43:16 AM
You're thinking of the Nicassar, who are also in BFG. The Demiurg are the NOT AT ALL SPACE DWARVES.

The Nicassar are stated as not even slightly liking the idea of a gravity well but I'd still like them to be a kind of palanquin or Dune navigator in a tank addition.

Oh, right. I get the two confused.

I agree, they would be totally cool. But no, I don't see them happening.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 5, 2017, 12:24:18 PM
You're ruining my childhood.

Wondering if they'll separate the Empire and Enclaves right off the bat or will consider them both Tau when it comes to detachments.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 9, 2017, 10:20:46 PM
Pursuant to my weapon stat speculations here (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=230208.0), this is what I think/hope will happen with the Tau arsenal:

Pulse Rifle: As is, AP 0, Dmg 1
Pulse Carbine: As is, AP 0, Dmg 1, -1 Ld on enemy check (which might be how they rationalize pinning)
Pulse Blaster: 12", Assault 2, AP -2, Dmg 1, Counts as pistol

Burst Cannon: As is, AP -1, Dmg 1
Plasma Rifle: As is, AP -3, Dmg d3
Fusion Blaster: As is, AP -4, Dmg d6, Re-roll to-wound under half range
Missile Pod: As is, AP -2, Dmg d3

Rail Rifle: As is, AP -3, Dmg d3
Heavy Rail Rifle: As is, AP -4, Dmg d6
Rail Gun: As is, AP -4, Dmg 2D6 (oh, yes)

Not sure what to do with Ion Weapons. I expect the dual fire mode might be gone, but I'm not sure what it would be replaced with.

As for Markerlights, I'd need to see what Command Points do, but I'm guessing they might work like command points. Either that, or they'd still work exactly as-is (nothing really stopping them). Denying cover, though, might translate to giving weapons AP. Maybe.
 
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: magenb on May 9, 2017, 10:57:00 PM
Pulse Blaster: 12", Assault 2, AP -2, Dmg 1, Counts as pistol

Given Tau are meant to be meh in CC, that might be a little too good, but depends on how good everyone elses CC weapon are going to be.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 09:17:24 AM
Of course, they only get to *use* it in the shooting phase (while in combat). They aren't then magically good at CC. Their regular CC attacks will still suck (probably hitting on 5s, for instance). They'd probably still lose to any devoted CC unit.

Besides, this is the unit that is *explicitly intended* to fight things up-close. Why shouldn't they be modestly good at it?
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 10, 2017, 12:47:52 PM
Depending on their own unit rules, you may want to consider heading in a rapid fire direction when under half range.

Edit: I was thinking of asking that railguns be 3D6 as said weapons should be able to one-shot most vehicles then had a moment of sanity as that's pure filth and overpowered right from the get go. 2D6 is fair, a massive blow perhaps or a love tap along the sides.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 15, 2017, 01:23:41 PM
Welp, they're talking about the T'au (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tau-empire/) now.

Okay, what sounds good:

- I'm glad the unloved units in the codex will get some love. Not that Sniper Drones look good or anything (yup, still amphetamine parrot), but I'm glad somebody at least tried. I guess you could take a bunch of them and *eventually* shoot that Chaos Lord down. Don't hold your breath, though.

- Nice to see the Tau will still be able to Fall Back and then shoot on jetpack units. That is key (though not as good as Jump-Shoot-Jump).

- Glad Supporting Fire is back.

What sounds so-so:

-Nice to hear that Missile Pods will be doing D3 wounds apiece. Sucks that it's only at AP -1. They will struggle to hurt vehicles now, which was kinda their whole point previously. I guess that depends on the Transport stats, but if Rhinos are T7, 3+ save (which seems fairly likely), Missile Pods will SUCK.

What sounds bad:

- So they're hitting markerlights with the nerf bat, eh? Re-rolling 1s? Blech. Looking forward to all the various ways my guys can gloriously miss every damned thing they aim at. The only bright side here is that, with Pathfinders being able to split fire, you could conceivably mark a lot of different units, since 1 mark is all it seems you need.

- If I'm reading between the lines right, everybody will be hitting on 4s with no clear way to improve this (barring "being a Stormsurge"). That kinda sucks, guys, and no lie. Twin-linked re-rolls, Markerlight boosts, Coordinating Firepower, and all that stuff made the Tau fearsome in the past few editions. Removing it sets them back by a LOT. Seems the army is getting hit by the nerf bat. Not saying they didn't deserve it, but it still sucks. 
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 15, 2017, 02:01:34 PM
Saviour Protocols sounds useful to avoid some of the morale losses. Nice movement on the drones too. Yeah, markerlights are definitely just a big whoop these days. Useless there's more in the other datasheets I'll be cutting back on them quite significantly.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Roboknee77 on May 15, 2017, 02:16:17 PM
It looks like they also closed the unlimited range supporting fire flamer overwatch loophole.  Now they only auto-hit units that come into range of the flamers, according to the faction focus.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 15, 2017, 04:42:18 PM
It looks like they also closed the unlimited range supporting fire flamer overwatch loophole.  Now they only auto-hit units that come into range of the flamers, according to the faction focus.
That doesn't really address the rules for overwatch as it could still allow flamers to hit units charging regardless of distance.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 15, 2017, 07:42:28 PM
Yes, in order to charge a unit, you kinda need to get within 8" of it.

Granted, you can't piggyback Supporting Fire from 12" away from the charged unit anymore, but that really doesn't fix the problem.

Trust me, Roboknee--I'll be able to flame your incoming orks anytime I damned well please.

The bright side for orks, however, is that there is no jump-back move, making my suits easier to engage.

Which is why they'll all have flamers...
Which now do 1D6 autohits in overwatch...
:-\
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 30, 2017, 09:09:52 AM
Well, some more Tau info has leaked. (search around or go check out that place with the bell)

Seems like Crisis Suits get another wound and a point of Toughness (yay!), but will cost a bit more to field and, of course, have lost Jump-shoot-jump (boo!).

Rail-weapons have a miniscule chance to cause Mortal Wounds, which is *nice,* but not precisely ground breaking. That said, Hammerheads have gotten a pretty sweet boost overall.

On the weapon stats in general, large blasts have gotten a nerf whereas small blasts get a boost (same as everywhere, I guess). Ion weapons seem to be doing steady damage, but can cause Mortal wounds if overcharged (I'm guessing not as many people will be doing that anymore).

The weird thing? Stormsurges look like they're going to cost much less to field. Like, cheap as a bare-bones Riptide (whereas Riptides are going to cost about the same as they do now with options). This seems wildly out of whack to me. Perhaps Stormsurges aren't as tough in this new world?

Oh, yes, and Vespid finally got an additional shot with their neutron blasters, so maybe (maybe) they'll see the table someday soon. 
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 30, 2017, 10:45:58 AM
The thing to keep in mind for the point costs is that the cost for the model does not include the cost of weapons.

So the storm surge might be cheap at a base cost, but you have to add the cost of the weapons still, which will make up for it.  Even if it is the stock weapons.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 30, 2017, 11:37:57 AM
The thing to keep in mind for the point costs is that the cost for the model does not include the cost of weapons.

So the storm surge might be cheap at a base cost, but you have to add the cost of the weapons still, which will make up for it.  Even if it is the stock weapons.

Yeah, but couldn't you then just take bare-bones unequipped Stormsurges (god knows why) and cause weird, weird mischief?

This whole mechanic (and the way it's being laid out) seems super, super strange.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 30, 2017, 03:15:12 PM
The thing to keep in mind for the point costs is that the cost for the model does not include the cost of weapons.

So the storm surge might be cheap at a base cost, but you have to add the cost of the weapons still, which will make up for it.  Even if it is the stock weapons.

Yeah, but couldn't you then just take bare-bones unequipped Stormsurges (god knows why) and cause weird, weird mischief?

This whole mechanic (and the way it's being laid out) seems super, super strange.
It depends on how the unit selection is worded.  Most that I have seen so far list it as "has x weapons, y weapons, or z weapons." So that would be telling you that right off the bat you must pay for those weapons.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on May 30, 2017, 03:24:40 PM
So...why not just include the cost of those weapons in the base cost? A lot of those weapons are exclusive to the chassis, so it seems odd to leave them as separate costs.

My initial response to the way they're laying out the Matched Play lists is that they seem needlessly complex and potentially confusing. They just want you to do math for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 30, 2017, 03:53:23 PM
Nature of the beast for having the points listed separately for a different style of play.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 10:12:13 AM
It makes sense for most weapons, as a lot are shared amongst units. And then might as list them all for consistency and allows gw to adjust the price for specific weapons if needed (too good, or too bad for the listed price), without altering anything else. I like it.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 10:22:50 AM
It makes sense for most weapons, as a lot are shared amongst units. And then might as list them all for consistency and allows gw to adjust the price for specific weapons if needed (too good, or too bad for the listed price), without altering anything else. I like it.

Now that you've confirmed that everything is on the same page, I'm somewhat mollified. At least it's all just there.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 11:05:41 AM
It makes sense for most weapons, as a lot are shared amongst units. And then might as list them all for consistency and allows gw to adjust the price for specific weapons if needed (too good, or too bad for the listed price), without altering anything else. I like it.

Now that you've confirmed that everything is on the same page, I'm somewhat mollified. At least it's all just there.

Yep. Building a list is easy. All points for all units, weapons and wargear is one one or two pages for each faction (depending how many options there are).

No need to flip through the book for the points on units and weapons anymore. It's all right there.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 2, 2017, 05:00:42 PM
No need to flip through the book for the points on units and weapons anymore. It's all right there.
Unless you play a Space Marine variant like Dark Angels where you have several pages dedicated to Space Marine units and wargear, and a couple pages dedicated to Dark Angel units that also have to reference Space Marine wargear for the complete picture.  An example of which would be the Nephilim Jetfighter that has Blacksword Missiles, Twin-Linked Lascannons, and Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 05:07:14 PM
No need to flip through the book for the points on units and weapons anymore. It's all right there.
Unless you play a Space Marine variant like Dark Angels where you have several pages dedicated to Space Marine units and wargear, and a couple pages dedicated to Dark Angel units that also have to reference Space Marine wargear for the complete picture.  An example of which would be the Nephilim Jetfighter that has Blacksword Missiles, Twin-Linked Lascannons, and Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters.


Yeah, that is true Super easy for me though, my harlequins points take only half a page lol.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 22, 2017, 03:12:03 PM
Well, there are a few more pistols out there than before and the pulse blaster turned out not to be too shabby in the end. Marker lights and support systems are kind of meh though.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on June 22, 2017, 10:22:07 PM
Been making lists today with the new book. My first thoughts are as follows:

1) Holy amphetamine parrot, somebody doesn't want to see Riptides on the table again! There is absolutely NO WAY their firepower justifies their cost. None. It's seriously beslubbering ridiculous.

2) Likewise: who did Crisis Suits kick in the shins? 100 points for a single Deathrain suit? Screw you guys. Missile Pods are just *not* that good. At all. Try comparing them with the cost of autocannons in pretty much any other army and you'll cry real tears.

3) Broadside, ALSO wildly too expensive for what they do. At least their guns are good, so you can give them that at least.

4) Markerlights are pretty lame now. I can see taking Pathfinders for the Rail Rifles, but otherwise...meh. (also: rail rifles = stupid expensive)

5) Vespid just got legitimately good. Too bad the models are still butt ugly.

6) Strike Teams/Breacher Teams are exactly as good as they always were, which is something. They got a trifle cheaper, too.

7) I like that the Ethereal and Cadre Fireblade traded jobs. It never made sense that the dude in pajamas would be riding to the front lines with the boys.

8 ) Hammerheads are approximately the same cost as they were back in 4th/5th edition, and Railguns are about as good as they've always been against tanks, but now the submunition is mostly worthless. Too bad the tanks can't move and shoot the main gun without penalty.

9) The real winner here? Drones! Cheapo firepower, can protect your other units, nice and fast.

10) Sun Shark is a pretty good bomber now.

Overall this edition is an ENORMOUS kick in the teeth to most of the Tau battlesuits (well, Stealths are pretty much the same). They are way, waaaay too expensive for their stats or weapons. In general most of the special weapons available to Tau are too pricey for their stats, especially when compared to Imperial armies.

Not necessarily going to shelve them for this edition, but I've got to say they don't look terribly enticing. It reminds me very much of 5th Edition, which was a pretty dark time for the Tau. 
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 23, 2017, 03:19:54 PM
Been making lists today with the new book. My first thoughts are as follows:

1) Holy amphetamine parrot, somebody doesn't want to see Riptides on the table again! There is absolutely NO WAY their firepower justifies their cost. None. It's seriously beslubbering ridiculous.

Add in that *every time* you use the reactor you take a mortal wound.

Markerlights I'll probably use them in pairs to sling seeker missiles at people.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on June 23, 2017, 03:40:02 PM
Yeah, what happened to the Riptide very much smacks of pique. Somebody did NOT like seeing them on the table. I'm sure their frequency in tournaments had NOTHING to do with it at all.  ::)

I just can't fathom why an Ion Accelerator (alone!) would cost more than 25 guardsmen. Makes zero sense.

As for markerlights, the bright side is that their target priority will drop by a LOT, so it's possible you'll be getting their benefits a lot more often. Granted those benefits aren't stellar, but Pathfinders are dirt cheap now and the Rail Rifle is snazzy, so why not?
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 23, 2017, 04:46:07 PM
I just looked up the price for Riptides. Wow. Really loving the gun drones though, you know how I've always felt about them.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on June 23, 2017, 05:55:44 PM
It's a drone paradise in 8th edition. Congrats.

Mulling how best to get drone controllers spread around. BS3 gun drones would be *sick.*
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 23, 2017, 08:19:17 PM
Don't forget using them as battlesuit ablative wounds.
Title: Re: Pistols also New Tau
Post by: Wyddr on June 24, 2017, 07:44:40 AM
Don't forget using them as battlesuit ablative wounds.

Oh, absolutely. Now that battlesuits cost a BILLION points, I'll be damned sure somebody else is taking the hits for them.