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Offline GrumpyJester

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The disappointment known as Chaos
« on: December 14, 2010, 05:25:59 AM »
This may come across as a whine thread, but I'm actually hoping for you guys to prove me wrong. That over the years you've found that it's really not that bad.

But boy does the Chaos codex stink.

Everything we share with normal Space Marines is just worse. Either it costs more points for no reason whatsoever, or we lose all kinds of interesting little rules and options. That's already pretty discouraging for a new Chaos player, but you tell yourself that it's probably compensated by the Chaos-specific stuff in the list. And this is somewhat true: Thousand Sons and Plague Marines are very powerful and efficient Troops.

Now here's the problem: what if you want to play a specific Legion that wouldn't use those two Troops? How on earth do you make an effective Word Bearer army, for example? You'll just be playing Space Marines, only less. I'm not a tournament player or anything, but knowing my troops are weaker/more expensive for no reason at all kind of takes the fun out of it for me.

Perhaps someone could convince me Lesser Daemons are better than they look on paper? That would be something.

- Word Bearer who already lost his faith :(
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Offline necrongaz

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 05:45:46 AM »
Codex creep has had some effect compared to the current version of vanilla marines. We're a 4th ed codex compared to a 5th ed one and while we don't have a lot of the cool stuff they do we have things they'd never be able to field. So rejoice brother and keep the faith.  :)

Whatever legion you're trying to field you'll be able to have oblitorators and that huge walking tank they can only be envious off. Our obbies are wonderful since they can move, morph heavy weapons and still shoot them. So your heavy weapons support is truely mobile.

Lesser daemons can be useful at times but you need them in  large numbers (off at least 12) since they need to soak up a round of shooting before assault. Just like everyother deep striking assault troops.

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2010, 06:01:25 AM »
Lesser daemons can be useful at times but you need them in  large numbers (off at least 12) since they need to soak up a round of shooting before assault. Just like everyother deep striking assault troops.

Except of course that lesser daemons can assault the turn they deep strike... that's something they don't have over other deep striking assault troops bar vanguard veterans, who cost a LOT more
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Offline Jerseyboy381

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2010, 06:48:52 AM »
What do we have that vanilla marines don't?  Well for starters we are smart enough to lug that pesky chainsword around for the extra attack.  That alone makes our guys more valuable.  Yes we don't have ATSKNF but we have higher leadership and with the right mark, the ability to make it even tougher for us to fail those tests.  Add to it the fact that having the extra attack means we have a better chance of winning combat but when we lose we don't need to take extra wounds (we may get swept, but so may almost every other army).  We have Demon Princes, point-for-point the most effecient HQ there is and the cheapest MC with stats like that.  We get all of this and Space Marines get free missile launchers.
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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 08:24:39 AM »
And this is somewhat true: Thousand Sons and Plague Marines are very powerful and efficient Troops.

I'm not sure that I would regard Thousand Sons as being very powerful and efficient, even though I like them.

Quote
Now here's the problem: what if you want to play a specific Legion that wouldn't use those two Troops? How on earth do you make an effective Word Bearer army, for example? You'll just be playing Space Marines, only less.

Regular undivided Chaos Space Marines have always been pretty similar to regular Marines, so I don't really see what the issue is here.  My Word Bearers army comprises as many units of regular Chaos Space Marines with the Icon of Chaos Glory as possible, and I don't feel that I'm fielding a compromised force because of it.  Regular Chaos Space Marines are actually pretty good in my opinion, so I don't see that there is an issue here.  While there are issues with the current codex, I certainly don't feel that the ordinary Chaos Space Marine squads are one of them.
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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 08:29:16 AM »
This may come across as a whine thread, but I'm actually hoping for you guys to prove me wrong. That over the years you've found that it's really not that bad.

But boy does the Chaos codex stink.

Everything we share with normal Space Marines is just worse. Either it costs more points for no reason whatsoever, or we lose all kinds of interesting little rules and options. That's already pretty discouraging for a new Chaos player, but you tell yourself that it's probably compensated by the Chaos-specific stuff in the list. And this is somewhat true: Thousand Sons and Plague Marines are very powerful and efficient Troops.

Now here's the problem: what if you want to play a specific Legion that wouldn't use those two Troops? How on earth do you make an effective Word Bearer army, for example? You'll just be playing Space Marines, only less. I'm not a tournament player or anything, but knowing my troops are weaker/more expensive for no reason at all kind of takes the fun out of it for me.

Perhaps someone could convince me Lesser Daemons are better than they look on paper? That would be something.

- Word Bearer who already lost his faith :(

Why must this conversation be brought up every month or so? The codex has been out for three years now...


I wish to say first off, that comparing Chaos Space Marines, to Space Marines is incorrect. You should never directly compare army books. It's the same as having a Tau army, and saying how come Eldar get assault troops with 3+ saves, and the Tau don't. It's taking everything out of context. The armies should be thought of as completely different animals, as thats how they are internally balanced and created.

Needless to say, that Chaos marines are not Space Marines.

It is fair to say, that THe legions do not have strict guidelines anymore. This is not so say that the armies are no longer there. Word Bearers can complete the theme with lesser Daemons, and Possessed, without using cult troops. As much as legions like World Eaters can create a themed list by limiting themselves in what units they choose. Nothing is forced upon you, which is a good thing.

Chaos is also an army which has the most diverse amount of troops choices, and an army which can have a lot of relatively cheap troops (and cheap monstrous Creatures) assault on the turn they deepstrike. Sure, Greater Daemons and Lesser Daemons may not be the most powerful units in the game, but they don't need to be. I'd much rather take something which is good and cheap and lets me take more of other things, then a couple heavy hitters that eat up all my points.

Lesser Daemons in particular come in their own assisting assaults. Charging in with a squad of marines is okay, but adding a unit of 10-15 lesser Damons as well can add at least 30 extra S4 attacks. This is awesome. The are also easy to get in small units as well, in order to camp on objectives, while your more expensive cult or combat troops engage the enemy in combat.

Greater Daemons are just pure awesome in a can. Such impressive stats, hardly any real cost and can assault the turn they come in. Fantastic.

On the subject of chaos space marines, we have the units which are geared to take on any role. With both rifles, as well as pistols and close combat weapons our troops can be effective at what ever you need them to do. They do make up for this, for having to real strength in any one area, but combat is a natural home for them. Our squads are very expensive in relationship to other armies troops, mainly as we have a lot of awesome upgrades like Icons, as well as Special Weapons and Squad Champions. I find a Chaos space marine unit easily runs between 200-300pts for me, but they are dead hard and worth it (I also take the Bile upgrade and Icon of Slaanesh, making all my marines super hard).

I don't think complaining abut the codex is doing anything at all constructive. The better thing to do is explore the choices you have available and enjoy what you have.
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Offline Fealhach

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 01:02:07 PM »
I'm not a Chaos player, but I didn't like the fact that Chaos was split into two codexes. It was like splitting Imperial Guard into Codex: Infantry and Codex: Tanks. The Daemons were one of the major differences between the Loyalists and the Traitors.

As the Imperium's greatest sworn enemy which comes in numerous forms, this diversity should be represented by having Chaos Marines, Daemons and cultists all in the one big thick codex! Pure Daemon armies outside of the Eye of Terror just doesn't seem to make much sense fluffwise and as an experienced opponent of CSMs, their lists always feel samey. Powerful but nonetheless samey.

Offline canadin

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2010, 02:33:52 PM »
I got ZERO complaints about the mechanics of the Chaos Space Marine Army.

I hate how how the fluff and customizability was stripped out, but our codex still is very powerful, our troops kick ass, and Daemon Princes might be the BEST PRICED HQ's IN THE GAME!!!!

Its a fine codex, so stop complaining, ATSKNF sux compared to higher LD, extra attacks, and avaiability to things like Icon of Khorne (3 attacks on EVERY TROOPER) or Chaos Glory. Ill take re-rolled LD 10 any day over ATSKNF

Offline Manit0u

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2010, 08:20:53 PM »
The only thing I don't like about the Codex is that they left out the theme part from the previous one (I want my cultists back!), which also affected the boxed sets. Previously they made sense, each boxed set of specialised troops came with the number of models equal to holy number of the deity. Right now they don't make any sense. Why would I want 7 plague marines and with plasma instead of melta to boot?!
Seriously, just looking at how much money you have to spend on various things you shouldn't be buying when starting some themed CSM army is ridiculous. (For example, to get Papa Nurgle army running PM squads exclusively, just look how much your squads cost: Let's say that we want to build ourselves 2x 10 man squads with optimal wargear. We're gonna need 3 boxes of Plague Marines, 2 boxes of CSM - to get your powerfists and combi-flamers for sergeants and half of the needed meltas, also, you will need to buy the meltagun pack. You could drop the costs a bit by ordering conversion kits from FW, but then you'd have to deal with extra shipping and handling 2 orders instead of one etc.)

Please GW, look at our options not just from the game perspective, but as a shop customers too. Why do we have to go through so much trouble?
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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 12:25:20 AM »
I played a mutant horde with allied Word Bearers and Daemons...yeah, for most intents and purposes, my army was Squatted.

The issues with the codex, aside from mostly being Codex: Knockoff Marines, include *horrid* internal balance, a virtually non-existant Fast Attack slot (suicide melta Raptors. Whee), a general lack of reliable multishot midstrength weapons for shake-stunlocking mech MSU...

It's not even codex creep so much as Gav dropping the ball with game design 101.

Offline Geopox

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 12:42:33 AM »
I love my CSM, and i would love them more with a newer codex. True out HQ's are second to none, DP and and kharne the betrayer *Never misses* and our troop choices often times outstrip other armies elite choices, that being said our point cost is high, and our elite and fast choices are subpar *i still love you possesed* but ive never felt cheated by playing CSM, in fact im almost sure ive won 85% of the games ive played because they are so elite; and our heavy support choices are some of the best, two defilers are cheap and posses awsome ranged support and deadly close combat.

Give them a try, my favorite are Beserkers to lead the assualt with kharn and a deamon prince, summoned lessor deamons as support and line breakers, ranged power from defiler(s) and oblizts to deepstrike and plasma cannon squads and multimelta tanks. all this backed up by thousand suns at home objective to kill enemy elites who think they can just stroll in and have thier way while the beserkers are out. *ahhh fond memories* at any rate, yes you might only field 2 or 3 squads of troops but those troops have no equals, not even on someone elses elites list.

Offline BaconTaser

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 01:39:02 PM »
IMO, the codex felt like it was rushed too quick and could of easily added more to it ( Like God-specific Daemons*, would of been nice to have LD with T5 and a GD with 4++ saves, and veteran rules for flavor) But i contempt with what I have and make the best out of my Chaos for what they do best.


* As for God-specific Icons, I know people who uses them in their troops, I don't simply because their teleport homer option is good enough for LD and Obliterators, + the Glory is always nice. Am I the only one who thinks that Daemons would of been the best units to carry Icons?

Besides, If i want to play both codecies, I just call for Apocalypse.
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Offline GrumpyJester

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 07:23:26 AM »
Myeah, I'm starting to see that it's not that bad. True, many of our troops are overpriced compared to loyalists (aspiring champions, raptors, predators and vindicators), but some of our gear options are actually cheaper (lascannons and flamers). In the end the difference isn't that big. And while I still believe ATSKNF + Combat tactics is superior to +1 Ld and reroll, the difference isn't that big either.

Greater and Lesser Daemons being able to assault the turn they arrive is great as well. Lesser Daemons won't win any fights on their own, but aiding another squad in combat might just make them worth their points :)

Thanks!

Edit: of course, we're still painfully inferior to Space Wolves, but I guess that pretty much applies to every other army out there ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 07:42:48 AM by GrumpyJester »
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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 07:27:50 AM »
It's not so much that ATSKNF + combat tactics is BETTER than the extra Ld combined with a re-roll, it's that the two are good for different things. CSM are less likely to run away than their loyalist kin, while codex marines suffer less from doing so, and in fact can turn running away into a tactical advantage. Seeing as Chaos Space Marines tend to prefer getting stuck in in close quarters, and a poor roll when doing a sweeping advance can see your entire unit wiped out with no chance of inflicting damage in response, this basically means that CSM are usually better off being in a combat than loyalist marines are, which makes a fair bit of sense to my mind
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Offline Geopox

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 01:51:37 PM »
I dont think any army can match the versatility of the chaos army, each of our troop choices can specialize in a field, from MEQ hunting to sheer resilance and since they can all hold objectives it only takes us a few troops to win the day. I do wish for better fast attack choices but the rest of the codex is stellar. Chaos armies definatly field more troop slots than other armies (but not more troops, that goes to the guard)

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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 03:27:11 PM »
Plenty of armies can, most notable being loyalist Marines. Chaos also pay a small fortune for a lot of their Troops. Of the assorted Troop choices they have, only two I would call good (Berserkers and Plague Marines, and I'm being generous with the first).

With Heavy Support, two options are just plain better than the rest; were Chaos able to mount Reapers on their Rhinos, or had better Fast Attack options, or Oblits were moved back to Elites, Defilers/Vindicators would be more viable in an all-comer list.

How does Chaos have the greatest flexibility, competitively speaking?

Offline Geopox

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 03:00:45 AM »
ib 2/3 games objectives are what you play for, and since 2/3 games also play with long table edges its likely that even the footslogging (not suggested) infantry can get to objectives. and since it not neccisassry to bring elite units (most of them are sub par anyways) you get to free up more points for the great troop choices. its not uncommon for the chaos players in my hobby shop to field all 6 troop choices and no elites. this may not work as well for people who play undivided or a specific army, but the true glory of chaos is that each troop compliments the others. plague marines hold the objectives best, 1k sons get ap 3 weapons and always fire at 24 inches. noise marines have the higher int and field one of the best template weapons in the game, beserkers are close combate gods then you can fill out with normal marines and lessor deamons dont count as choices.

and vindies and defilers arnt much compared to oblitz

Offline Manit0u

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 03:13:02 AM »
How does Chaos have the greatest flexibility, competitively speaking?

Just look at the options we have. You said that only Zerkers and Plagues are good from our troops, that's where you're wrong (and I don't know what's your beef with Zerkers, 41 attacks straight out of Land Raider can be pretty damn scary).  The overlooked Noise Marines can be customized to perform various tasks, close combat MEq destroyers (with Doom Siren and Power Sword) or shooty and mobile anti-horde (with Sound Blasters), we have a very decent and cheap troop choice in form of Lesser Daemons and our icons are a very powerful tool to aid all the surprise deep-striking. Your standard CSM can be customized to perform a variety of battlefield roles, marks and icons give us more options (and having options is all it's about). Hell, we even have a highly customizable unit that can outflank.

Sure our codex needs an update (for which we have to wait until 2012 at least I think) but the thing we should be complaining about right now is our model range, which, while improving is still severely lacking. Why do loyalist terminators get 4x LC and TH/SS sets in their boxes while we don't get a single LC set which is probably the most desirable item? Can't we get a CC-termies boxed set too? Obliterators being one of the ugliest models to ever see the light of day etc.
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Offline GrumpyJester

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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 05:16:12 AM »
Just for the record: in my OP I already acknowledged the power of the cult-troops...I was just lamenting the fact that our non-cult troops weren't quite up to loyalist standards, which sucks if you're going for a Word Bearer or Night Lord army.

And by the way: am I the only one who values Thousand Sons so highly? ???
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Re: The disappointment known as Chaos
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 05:23:13 AM »
The major problem with Thousand Sons is that they are VERY expensive for what they can do. AP3 bolters is very nice except that it's not at all difficult to give MEQs a 4+ cover save, which makes Inferno Bolts worth nowhere near as much as they cost in the current codex.

I don't agree that regular CSM aren't up to loyalist standards. They're cheaper, they can take Icons, they can take 2 special weapons, they have bolters, bolt pistols and CCW as standard, they have better leadership than loyalist marines... Frankly regular CSM are a pretty decent match for loyalist marines. If you like going on the offensive, regular CSM work out just fine. A harder comparison is with Grey Hunters, but Grey Hunters are undercosted, frankly.
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