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Author Topic: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.  (Read 13556 times)

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Offline moc065

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2008, 09:53:26 AM »
Heavy Support:

The Havocs: These can really depend; because armies that are all infantry can work extremely well.
 They lost tank hunters, so AC’s are no longer no-brainer choices… they are pretty static with the normal hvy weapons, and demand good deployment and field of fire.  You’ll also need to worry about Body bags… it used to be 1 body bag per item… now I think It’s a little more.
 
(*)Hvy Weapons: Always balance maximizing range and board coverage.
-Lascannons-Over priced.
-Hvy Bolters-Nice for what they do, but they usually end up being tailored to a specific enemy.
The better options are both different all-comer weapons, but are 2 sides of the same coin.
-Missile Launchers-All rounder, emphasis on medium tanks and light infantry.
-Autocannons-All rounder, emphasis on medium troops and light vehicles. ML and Las are my favs with the ML's getting top spot.

(*)Special Weapons:  Always with Rhino, so that these weapons can get into range, unless you plan to stand and shoot with the plasma guns.
-Plasma Gun-drop out and double tap… devastating and not so bad for the shooters…always good.
-Melta Gun-Trickier as their target selection is more narrow than the plasma dudes.
-Flamers-Like the melta gun, they have a narrow target selection, but the new template resolution makes it godly when in a good position.
 
10 Havocs, 4 ML’s or 4 AC’s, IoCG (240)
10 Havocs, 4 Plasma Guns/Melta/Flamer, IoCG, Rhino (255/235/215)
These are both awesome suggestions; but they seriously have to fit the rest of the army...
 
The Obliterators:
 Are super awesome… Yes & No ... because they are relatively soft and can get plastered on mass. able to adapt to any role they need to be… anti-tank or anti-hvy infantry… deepstrike + multimelta combo should be considered as melta’s are, IMO, better than Lascanons in the AT business (except for the monolith).  Though the abundance of cover blunts all their low ap weapons, they still provide, IMO, the best versatile MOBILE (as in S&P and deepstrike) cover fire you can get in the hvy. support section.  Obliterator weapon rundown:

(*)Powerfist- it’s a defensive weapon, but if you deepstrike and it’s worth it to shoot and charge something a turn later, then go for it.
(*)TL flamer-I see this as a weapon of opportunity, cause it will be rare to NEED to use this weapon
(*)TL meltagun- when you deepstrike close.
(*)TL plasma gun- when you have something that’s in double tap range that needs some plasma love (ie Terminators).
(*)Multi-Melta- when you deepstrike close but not close enough.
(*)Plasma cannon- Long range AI cover fire, though it scatters, it’s still decent at its job, dulled by cover saves though.
(*)Lascannons- Long range AT cover fire, it no longer blows up tanks, but it’ll prob. keep them quiet if you get past cover saves.

Lascannons vs. Multi-melta vs. TL meltaguns versus Tanks, when to use.
Basically:
(*) 25”-48” Lascannons (at that range, it’s your only option)
(*) 13”-24” is a grey area (Lascannon vs Multi-melta)(here we see a preference issue…Lascannons will get you more results with a die, but the multi-melta will get you a better result.) M-Melts gets my vote here.
(*) 7”-12” is an aquamarine area (Multi-melta vs. melta)(here the melta is more accurate, but the Multi-melta will penetrate more likely)
(*) <6” Melta guns (make the most out of a very accurate gun with a melta rule)

I usually take 3 Oblits (225), regardless of how many Hvy Support FoC slots I still have…3 makes them durable and focused killy.
Like I said, they are still easy enough to get plastered... and Sancty does not take 3, he takes 2 squads of 3... and there is a big difference; as they can support each other... 3 on their own is not enough in my books.

The Defiler:
Unique to the Chaos Army, therefore ‘wins’ in my book in the Vindi vs. Defiler debate…even though I still don’t like using either.  This guy has an identity crisis.  It’s a hybrid between a dreadnought and a vindicator… able to go into combat, with a variety of back-up weapons and then the LONG RANGE battle cannon.  It has dulled advantages of both, reinforcing the ‘unique’ image.
Choice options as Sancty suggests, Its so unique that its cool; but there are so many other players using them, that 1 more is not needed. They are a Cash issue for many players as their not cheap.. but they certainly can work.

The Chaos Vindicator:
Big Boom, very scary for the opponent, but not so much for people used to seeing them, but tastes too much like loyalists…It’s a nice gun, but easily neutered, but doesn’t suffer from the defiler’s identity crisis…
Daemonic Possession is a no-brainer.
Vindi w/ DP, combi-bolter (150)
That is the only build I see fitting hte Vindicator as well. I think they are overdone though, and I know a lot of opponents that can deal with them... If you happen to do 2 of them though, they become that much better. But then again, so do Defilers, and Preds if you do them on mass.

NOTE:  Defiler vs. Vindi: The answer, which ever fits your army list and play style.

The Chaos Predator:
Too static for my tastes, with the new change to defensive weapons.
Dakka preds are cheap for the shots, but only if you have nothing else to spend on… though, like the vindi, the side armor is a let down.
I actually like these... Sorry Sancty... I go with Autocannon and Las sidesponsons... give them (because I go with 2) a good LOS to the Battle field and angle them a litte out from each other to seriously limit the enemies targeting options for side armour... sit still and shoot 4 big bullets (each) down range unti they die... the enemy can not afford to ignore them, and even if you face all infantry (not a horde mind you) they can be useful for the insta-kill factor. In regard to the Auto/h-bolter variant (or Dakka Pred)... I think its too static to get working well as no infantry is going to rush right at them.... and your now limiting your ranged anti-tank (so in this case the Oblits are normally better - on mass)

The Land Raider:
Even with the price drop, I don’t like the investment in a vehicle with an identity crisis…making it’s 50% of its abilities useless: You transport stuff, you can’t shoot…. You shoot everything, but can’t deliver transported dudes.
Granted AV 14 is tough, but there’s plenty of things in 40K still able to deal with them.
Big f---ing armour, so what... its to non-dedicated for me, and I can name a number of things that don't mind av=14.... Darklances, Brightlances, Str=10 guns, and even quite a few assault units... If the enemy is not ready for them they are gold; but in most games I htink they are just average so the cheaper stuff is better (as it allows more Troops).

OK, for Named Charcters... well their all expensive and the only one I even consider is Kharn (purely due to fluff)... and even he is only a thought for those ultra different and who gives a amphetamine parrote games... as he is not nearly as good or scary as his points indicate.

I'll get to the mini-tactica shortly.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 09:55:55 AM by moc065 »
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Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2008, 10:29:07 AM »
See...what I don't understand is why you left all my text in there as well....it's painfully repetitive...

Couldn't you have done:

"Havocs: Blah, blah, blah." Period.  You don't have to include all the other stuff you are not addressing...

I know that laziness can be one reason... but come on... even I don't do that to others... and I'm prob. more lazier than you.

Oblits ARE awesome... they are 100% effective til they die.. they have 2 wounds, unlike the vehicles 'one' wound.  You get saves against everything thrown at them...and they are more flexible than any other hvy support option in the Chaos list.
Able to move and shoot or deepstrike, having the weapons for almost any situation...the balance act is that they can be instant killed and that they are shot with small arms... the balance to that is that they get 2+ saves versus small arms and that str 8+ weapons hitting would mean... they can pull some AT fire away from other tanks.....win/win man.

As for plague marines.. have you seen my list.. it's doing pretty damn well with just plague marines.
Also... I did mention flamers... and I do use them in my competitive list.

Though... I do NOT suggest flamers as 'themed' options... unless you convert them into a chemical sprayer...flamers are a no-no for fluff...flamers 'cleanse' disease....and that's a no in my book for fluff.

Zerkers are NOT the 'best' in this tactica, go make your own.. :D... plague marines are superior choice, IMO, because of their flexibility... something the zerkers DO NOT have.  That flexibility is contributing in ranged combat... and having special weapons for the job.

Zerkers are great in their single minded purpose... and don't get me wrong, they are great in combat, but they are not flexible.

My 7 Cents.
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2008, 10:42:08 AM »
I don't play Chaos, but I play Smurfs, and I disagree about Predators.

Tri-Las Preds or even the autocannon + hev bolter is a solid combination, and a commanding field of the battlefield is deadly to anyone.

Also, the sheer psychological value against most people is worth it. Seriously, it's only killing like 2 DA a turn, but a lot of people will just pour BLs into it for the "AHHHH, It's a tank." Even if there a veteran player, their subconscious mind will be like "shoot the tank....shoot the tank."

But yeah, otherwise, great guide.

Whoa there.

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2008, 10:55:20 AM »
You see... you are a Smurf... therefore you die...
__________

I don't like preds for what they have LOST... mainly mutated hull for some Leman Russ Stats, them juicy AV14 front.

Not only that... the dakka pred can't fire with maximum efficiency on the move any more.
You smurfs will have CHEAPER Preds... Razor backs... machine spirit to trade for being immobile... so you don't have a minor identity crisis on your weapon load outs.

Tri-las are expensive for what you get... an immobile gun plat form that can be silenced for a turn and blunted with so much cover, while the Dakka Pred is only really good at medium infantry... not truly a horde killer.

Only idiots and people who accept they are not a fast army will waste fire and shoot something upfront.  The side armor is killer for my liking of this tank...and again, it reeks of loyalist.... I rather use the more unique options of Defilers and Obliterators.

You see, this statement is an oxymoron:
Even if there a veteran player, their subconscious mind will be like "shoot the tank....shoot the tank."
They are a veteran because they have move past this and have a better understanding of their target priorities.

If you want a psychological valued tank, the vindi and the defiler get you that... with larger 'shoot me' signs on them than the pred... the pred is there to lay low and stalk.... like (shock and awe) a predator, but it doesn't do it's job very well due to the static nature when it should be able to move and shoot with at least the hvy.bolters... so it can pounce like a predator.

My 7 Cents.
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2008, 11:59:09 AM »
Some Random Thoughts About Fighting Tyranids

These D-bags can do it all...out number you, out shoot you, out CC you, out move your infantry, out monstrous creature you...your only hope is to shoot alot and stick together and have supporting elements to your army.

Hive Tyrant-They come in 2 flavors.
-Flyrant-they are fast and are fitted with dakka guns or pure CC, these guys should be killed early on, but most tyranid players will place them so that they get cover saves in which it becomes a gamble when dedicating any fire to them.  But they still hate things that get around high toughness and power armor….like fists, high str. Power weapons, rending and such…they don’t like combat resolution when guants are in combat as well.
-Walkingrant-usually with guns and tyrant guard….generally you want to unload plasma on this….whenever they are NOT in cover… if they are… you’d rather shoot something else…you want
Broodlord-You want an ultra killy HQ with meh defensive qualities…and a cheap cost…here he is…. This guy is a monster for the price you pay… though he substitutes his defense for some ridiculous offensive abilities.  His problems come in two forms.
-Meh Defensive abilities: He is at best an MEQ…so power weapons will eventually get through his few wounds.
-Infiltrating=at least 1 to 2 turns of shooting into the face of his retinue…that can be good for the tyranid player, but you really should not ignore this unit…
Again, small arms to force saves and/or hvy flamers are the way to go…even tossing them a vehicle to ‘tar pit’ them could work, and would be better if the rhino explodes and takes some things with it.

Warriors-These guys are very flexible in terms of equipment.  They are the infrastructure of the Tyranid list, in both small and large army lists.  They provide tailored support and synapse coverage, and can use different FoC slots should you need to. These guys are mostly always have a guant screen in front of them.
(*)Flying Types are fast and usually CC oriented… but their armor save is not improvable…so should they ever NOT be in cover….bolter them down.
(*)Close Combat-these guys will be slower versions of ravenors…they rend, they are ‘tough’ and they can be relatively fast, they still have the defensive qualities of a SM scout.  Try to shoot these guys down, but you’d rather shoot down the genestealers over these guys.
(*)Shooty-I usually see the small blast template spam…these guys can be scary with some decent scatters…resulting in a crap load of armor saves.  Generally being in cover only helps those in 5+/6+/- armor, but the only thing you can hope for here is nice armor saves and high scatters.  Otherwise, spread out…and close combat these guys… it might prove hard to lock them down, with them having 24” range…but if you do… you’ll be better off with them not shooting at you.
Lictors-these guys do get a shafting… dangerous terrain checks when they come in and worth a kill point…they are generally there to be annoying… charging and maybe tying up a havoc squad or attacking something isolated…and to give the feeder tendrils to a unit near them in combat…these guys are not very durable in combat… basic CSM squads have a good chance of killing one in combat.
Elite Carnifex-Tyranid ‘medium’ tanks.  I see them in 3 flavors:
Dakkafex-these guys are still king of forcing saves, power armor is not safe.
Stranglerfex-these guys are cheap and they throw in a str 8 pie plate… it can be scary.
Screamer Killer-these guys love run… getting there and taking names in CC.
Of all the fexes there, I find the strangler is first to go down, the dakka, then the screamer killer… those OUT of cover are always shot first.
Usually you’ll want to shoot them with mid-long range weapon… using close range weapons only on wounded fexs…small arms has a chance, but not a good one.

Hormaguants-these guys are fast on the charge, able to scare your guys by traveling very far in the assault phase, and are able to tie things up… BUT, if they charge too soon, they may hurt themselves more than help due to combat resolution.
Guants-So many varieties…the same way to kill them.  Their goal is to take pot shots and tie you up as the big guys or the killy guys get into position.  You can kill them with small arms…. Or if they are reduced enough, let them charge or charge them and kill them double time with combat resolution.
Ripper Swarms-They DO NOT SCORE… their role is to tie things up due to the number of wounds they can have in a fight…. But if entering a bad combat… you may lose more than you’d think you do and the tar pit will disappear very quickly.  Kill these with template and blast weapons, and better if they are str 6+ blast weapons… …like plasma cannons…each wound will kill 2 bases….that is if you get past their cover saves……so flamers will be easier for dug in rippers at 2 wounds per wound caused.
Genestealers-Those annoying dudes that can wreck or disappoint… bring the heavy flamers or hvy bolters or autocannons… even small arms… you want to shoot these guys down before they get into combat.  They are also likely to have a guant screen…weight of dice will be used to get past that.  Should you enter combat, do it on your terms…IE, accept charges that they need to get through cover, or charge them back, denying them the initiative or their attacks is GOOD.

Gargoyles-I rarely see these guys, but they are good, except they don’t score now and are IRL expensive.  These guys have effectively 4 attacks on the charge…one from shooting, one faster attack, and 2 attacks base… you’ll prob. see these guys accompanying a Flyrant, they are there to look scary and tie other stuff… but NOT to enter the same fight with the Tyrant…unless they know they will win. Like guants, small arms/flamers/ordinance.
Ravenors-They are there as the bigger brother to the hormaguant…but more expensive.  Their asset is fast charges that can catch an opponent offguard….and these are rending attacks, so they can be lethal depending on the dice rolls.  Generally weight of dice is good at bringing these guys down… and str 8 weaponry if they are ever out of synapse.
Spore Mines-Free Kill points…awesome.  Let them pop, it’s not so bad.

Zoenthropes-These are basically used as the infrastructure of the army.  The normal equipment you’ll see on them will be synapse and warp blast.  They keep the little guys in line, while providing some flexible ranged support.  They are very durable to anything but AP2, and can target heavy infantry and heavy tanks…the balance here is actually hitting their targets, and giving up a kill point each.  Like I said before, these guys will go down to AP2 weapons… but don’t think that small arms is not a good option….those 1’s will roll at some point.  Thought they are not high on the list of things to kill, they get there when they are in range to wreck an AV 14 tank….
Hvy Carnifex-mostly like the elite fexes…. But they may be tougher… so you’ll prob. stick with the heavy weapons.  These more expensive fexes will most likely be hybid fexes… adding in more weapons or splitting between range and CC…. Or tooled up in defensive upgrades, but that’s generally not see too much.
Boivore-You are prob. not gonna see these guys… ‘they shoot kill points at you’….lolcakes.  Small arms are used to kill it….that is if you actually spend the resources to get to it.

The basic theme is to shoot everything down before they contact you… easy to say, almost impossible to do…esp. with chaos.
What I will suggest is target priority, letting the tyranid player deploy first…and then castling.  Should you deployfirst….just castle anyway…
You want small arms on the closest gaunts….and you want heavier weapon taking out stuff NOT in cover…
As for what to shoot first… you should shoot the stuff that can hurt you over the course of the game…. Shooty fexes and/or Zoentrhopes….only if you have the range weapons to take them out in 1.5 turns…fast tyrands should be next…but if they hug cover you can take 1-2 turns focusing on the fexes for now.  When the main tyranid line comes, you’ll want a squad or two to counter attack, able to take out hordes and MC’s alike.
In the end it’s about taking out choice targets with the shooting you get to do, and supporting your line and hoping for the best…

‘Those’ Lists.[/B]:

(*)NidZilla-Lots of monstrous creatures….usually 7/8, with the last slot going to zoenthopes.  This army is annoying, because causing wounds to MC’s is not enough… they are still 100% effective no matter how many wounds they have above 1.  So when you choose a fex to die…finish the job.  Anyway, you’ll prob. want to kill the faster stuff and the ordinance/shooty fexes… combat fexes can wait 1-2 turns.
(*)The Swarm-This includes lots of synapse and many, many guants/genestealers.  The guants act as a tarpit, with initial combat resolution they prob. have the numbers to careless.  The genestealers are the hammer, relying on rending.  There will be other items, but the majority will be guants.
But don’t let guants fool you… they will roll a ridiculous number of dice when charging you… and you will eventually fail some saves…their guys are expendable…your guys: Not so much.  Again, castling is good if the opponent has no other choice but to deploy across and along the deployment zone, it makes blast weapons better or makes them contribut 2-3 turns late.
(*)Stealer Shock-Lots of Genestealers….they can take out almost anything that’s not Av 14.  They are fast and want to give you hugs….. shoot the closest squad dead… not good to let stragglers in kill points or objective games… though 2-3 charging you isn’t as bad as a whole new squad, but target priority should be too hard… Broodlord first, and then the closest Genestealer squad… castling up is good… leaving counter attackers behind is good. Just don’t get caught in a multiple charge unless you allow it.
(*)Balanced-These are the lists that have a little of everything and still have the strengths of the multiple lists.  These kinds of lists make YOUR target priority your primary concern.  What will be a threat all game, what can wait, what is the easiest thing to take out, etc.

My 7 Cents.
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

Offline moc065

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2008, 02:54:13 PM »
I disagree again their Sancty... when it comes to Chaos, I am lazier than you, so the copy and paste is staying...to bad

Mini Tactica Portion:
 
ICONS of The Gods:
 
(*)Icon of Chaos Glory:  This is the Icon you should ALWAYS get first, then you can just add the points to go to the other icons should you want them.  I feel this is the best one, reducing the chance your guys run away from shooting or combat is GOOD…Ld10 is just not that great compared to Fearless in terms of running away. Alway suse this unless you getting the icon for a Fearless unit (DP) then get the Nurgle of Khorne... OK, I'll chop some stuff out, for the sake of others - but not for you Sancty.

A Note About Special Weapons: Always get them... enough said.. unless your a Khorne Berzerker...

(*)Melta-this is my personal favorite, the all-comer gun.  The BEST Anti-tank, decent anti-MC, and allows the charge after.  Only one thing can’t be hurt by the melta gun, and that’s the Eldar Avatar… otherwise,  the melta gun can kill it. Sancty pretty much sumed it up right there... full stop.


OK then I like a whol ebunch until it getts to this point.


500 Points CP Chaos List:
T-10 Plague marines, 2 Plasma Guns.
Hvy-10 Havocs, 4 Autocannons, IoCG.

I think that a lash DP (135) , 7 PM's (161) and 8 Zerkers in a Rhino (203) is actually better (499pts). If you prefer a more CC orientated style... and who the hell is facing mulitpel tanks at 500pts (besides the DP can squish them)... then I like a whole bunch more...unitl this

Objective Missions:
Focus on capturing at least 1 more than the opponent…that’s it…
So here are the situations you will look at:
 
5 Objectives:
Claim 1, Contest 4
Claim 2, Contest 2
Claim 3, Contest 0
 
4 Objectives:
Claim 1, Contest 3
Claim 2, Contest 1
Claim 3, Contest 0
 
3 Objectives:
Claim 1, Contest 2
Claim 2, Contest 0
 
With this matrix, you should decide what you want to go for, based on your army, your opponent, and the locations of the objectives, your deployment, etc.
Some options are easier, while others are safe, while others are win big/lose big decisions.

Here I think that you shoudl speak about the improtance of how to contest, or how to claim.. not just sayt to do it... How does Joe CSM hold the MO if he is taking bullets in the head.. this is why he should take the IoCG and not something else... etc..

I the Eldar section, you better say something about the Skimmer spam.. and other tailored Competitive lists.

thats it for now, and I will re-state that Sancty actually did an amazing job on this article... and people should read it at least twice.

CaHG


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Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2008, 03:22:36 PM »
About the 500 CP Chaos List.
It's for beginners...and also it's Combat Patrol like rules.... so starting out with just dudes and no Jerk Units would be nice, even if the jerk unit has no wings....you got cover fire and a unit that forces the newbie to think should he move or not... cause that's the basis to range appoximating...wors e case the autocannons will have the range.

I'll do contesting another day and add in more details about what I mean by combat patrol for those who do not know it, but I'm working on necrons right now.

About the 'laziness', I would like to press the point again... seriously..... it's making the thread cluttered when my writing is pretty much doubled.
If you choose not to edit the past posts fine, but for future posts couldn't you do:

"@Objectives Section: blah blah."

I think it takes less effort than copy and pasting an entire section, and makes it more managable and straight to the point.
_______

Or do we need to devolve this into the Tavern and start a Praising Flame War? ;) ;D

My 7 Cents.
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

Offline moc065

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2008, 04:05:29 PM »
Hey I thought that I did trim teh fat a lot more in that last post..

Anyway my point with the 500pts list to start by haing a legal force... so they learn more of the game...

CaHG
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Offline DarthChaos

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2008, 04:34:57 PM »
I recently played a 560 point game on wednesday (I am working on a BR right now Sanctjud so dont let your sores ooze yet) where I took a DP wings and WoC with 2 8 man squads of noise marines with Sonic Blasters.  It was 560 instead of 500 so my opponent could take his deathwing guy and 2 squads.

The DP at this lvl is just too much, he single handedly ripped apart the terms in no time.   I am not saying that nothing can take him out, but played right he just munches through things.  I will have the BR up later today if I ever get to it, I guess I could be competing in this lazy war to some extent but sounds like too much energy.
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them, to take their horses between his knees and to press in his arms the most desirable of their women."

    -- Ghengis Khan (c. 1200)

Offline Ronnie Knudsen

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2008, 11:56:02 PM »
I have a question.

I notice that everyone seems to think it's either Regular Marines or Cult Troops.  The Regular Marines MUST have the mark of chaos glory for the re-roll.
But what if they have another mark?  How useful is a 20 man squad of T5?  With 2 base attacks?  Initiative 5 is only somewhat useful of course, although it would decimate regular marines in combat, and of course the Tzneetch one is completely wasted by having it being in print.  It offends my brain.
Does anyone have any experience with this type of squad?

Offline DarthChaos

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2008, 12:39:29 AM »
Your brain is offended to easily, maybe you should switch medications.  As far as other marks though CG is the typical since it is A) cheapest, and B) helps your guys stick around longer instead of running away like the loyalists they used to be. 

Khorne, on a big squad this adds some attacks so if your looking to run in and get dirty it might be helpful but really only for fluff reasons IoCG is still superior for 1/3 the points and more functionality.

Nurgle, adds more resilience to small arms fire but still doesnt help against Instant Death, it is also the most expensive of the icons.  For the price of it you can get a champ, fist, and IoCG for the exact same price therefore IoCG is still superior due to functionality.  Thats great if your guys survive small arms fire to get into assault but are run down cause they fail their LD test.

Tzeentch.  Adds a 5+ INV save.  Could be useful in the right application but still pales in comparison to IoCG.  It is useful in fluff like the Khorne icon and if you want to use the squad as a front line screen to help absorb shots. Problem is they probably arent going to be taking shots that force an inv save anyway its probably going to be things like bolters that they can save anyway.  Only really useful if you get to try to soak up a pie plate or two.

Slaanesh.  the I5 helps the most out of the cult icons I think.  if your against other marines you get to go first, which means you might do enough damage so that they cant do enough back to force a test in the first place.  I would still rather have IoCG.

Chaos Glory.  reroll that save you beslubberingly missed and stick around instead of being run down like all your cult wannabe buddies.  It is the cheapest and most practical which is why it is used the most.  Others are still useful in certain ways but none are as useable as this.  kinda like obliterators.  So much more use than any other heavy and cheaper.
"A man's greatest work is to break his enemies, to drive them before him, to take from them all the things that have been theirs, to hear the weeping of those who cherished them, to take their horses between his knees and to press in his arms the most desirable of their women."

    -- Ghengis Khan (c. 1200)

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2008, 01:21:53 AM »
ICON VERSUS MARK

Ok... you can call me pissy about this...but there is a difference between Icons and Marks...

Daemon Prince, Lords, Sorcerer, cult troopers get MARKS.

Chosen, terminators, possessed, Joe CSM, Raptors, Bikers, Havocs get ICONS that bestow a MARK.

ICONS =/= MARK.

ICON of (Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, Chaos Glory, Dust-bucket), they act as deepstrike and summoning points and CAN BE LOST, while TRUE marks can not be lost but do not act as beacons.
___________________

@DarthChaos... thank you for the detailed post about the icons, pros and cons.

@Ronnie Knudsen: 20 man squads are 'fun'... but are IMO not competitive.  It's footprint is too large, making it unwieldy, harder to keep the number of guys needed to be in cover in cover..., nicer to scatter weapons as it's most likely to hit something...

Joe CSM's are liable to fallback and get rundown in combat, and in combat, they may prevent you from getting 'specialists' into the combat due to you having too many guys in the way.

You'd rather have an icon that allows you to stay in the game longer....the WORST thing is for a Chaos unit to run away....esp. with so many things that ignore it, IMO.

Slaanesh Icon is too situational... it's only good against I4.... everything else is inherently slower or faster than noise marines/IoS CSM's.

Khorne Icon has more utility than Slaanesh...

Nurgle Icon is just uneconomical, sadly, for the extra 5.5 points per model you get blight grenades, FNP, and fearless... it's a pretty good trade up IMO. (re: 20 man IoN vs. Plague marines)

My 7 Cents.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 01:24:57 AM by Sanctjud-"SOLAR PUPPY POWHA!" »
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Offline Madlax

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2008, 11:11:04 AM »
Amy Composition, Sanctjud Style:
 
(*)Necrons-Go for Phase out..
Monoliths: Before the game decide if you have enough lascannons to take down the monolith… if you feel like you do, then go for it, if you don’t, ignore the Monolith, cause there’s not much you can do.
If you ever immobilize it, and have something cheap to part in front of the door… DO IT.  Stick to cover to minimize the Particle Whip.
Kill isolated units FULLY to prevent WBB… Combat is nice to sweep them, with the –LD for difference of wounds and their lousy initiative values.  Scarab Swarms are there to tie you up… decide if it’s worth you to kill off some of them.
Destroyers are Necron players’ babies…they love them… it’s their jack of all trades… low model count per squad is bad for them… kill them dead if you can.
C’tan: Well….they are tough, but have an average save… so the best thing is to shoot it dead… which is a feat in itself, but should you have Autocannons or sniper rifles…those are the ways to go. (again, Go for Phase Out).
 
My 77 Cents.


Hey whats going on kinda new just been playing for the last year.. We had a New guy join us and he plays necrons.. I fought him this week and had some probs.. What do you mean by "Phase Out" if you don't mind me asking... Sorry for the newbish Question..

Offline Tauir - "The Shadow"

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2008, 12:14:09 PM »
In the Necron codex, there's a rule that makes it so if you kill 75% of their models, they "phase out" (disappear from existance) and you automatically win the game, regardless of other factors.
Whoa there.

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2008, 01:15:49 PM »
Well, it's 75% of the NECRON models...as there is a difference between Necron Models... and just Models in the Necron army......normally that would be a wierd and/or funny thing to say, but it makes sense if you know the rules for Necrons.

Next week I'll touch upon:

-Contesting/Scoring.
-Beginners' Combat Patrol Sanctjud Style.
-Fighting Necrons.
-Maybe Fighting Tau.

My 7 Cents.
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

Offline moc065

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2008, 04:32:58 PM »
Looking forward to that section Sancty...and nice Custom Title (to bad its not green).

BTW.. I faced a DP with Lash, 7 PM's and 7 PM's at 500 pts the other day... ... with my Wild Rider host (jetbike army 12 figures BTW, autarch, 3 JB's, 6 JB's, Vyper, and Vyper). I started in reserves (due to Dawn of War) and put 23 Str=6 shots (2 scatterlasers, 5 Shuri-cannons) into the DP on turn 1...Poof no more DP... so they are not impossible to kill. THe PM's were frustrating but I took 2/3 objectives and he had 1... so it turned out close in the end.... but there is not fail-safe list, or fail safe tactica... you need to use your knowledge to adapt to the situation. Although I will admit that the first time I faced that style of list, I got creamed....the lash can be sick if used well, and your not ready for it.

CaHG
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 04:42:05 PM by moc065 »
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Offline Madlax

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2008, 07:28:37 PM »
Ok cool thanks for the answers guys.. Maybe i pick up the necron codex to read up on them...

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2008, 12:37:43 AM »
Well.... maybe I'll go over this next week as well:

1. IMO, Chaos just does NOT work well in under 1850 points......
2. You were lucky to take out the DP... 23 shots, 12 hits (over estimating), 8 wounds... around 3 unsaved (over estimating again)..... so you were lucky.....
But, I never said they were invincible... high volume shots... from str 4+ will likely hurt/kill a DP....as with anything else on the receiving end......
3. Nice game, any pics or battle reports planned.... I think I'll go over battle reporting as well.....


7. I AM OFFICIALLY SANCTJUD, DAEMON PRINCE OF NURGLE!

My 7 Cents.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 12:39:21 AM by Sanctjud-"Daemon Prince of Nurgle!" »
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2008, 08:29:20 AM »
Looking forward to that section Sancty...and nice Custom Title (to bad its not green).
   Seems that the local moderator(s) got a twisted sense of humor... :)

Quote

Although I will admit that the first time I faced that style of list, I got creamed....the lash can be sick if used well, and your not ready for it.

   And I too. 4th ed, the guy was fielding a double lash (DP/Sorcerer), one got through RoWarding and he towed my Wraithguard within range of TWO squads of TS' and double-tapped them with their crazy bolters. Then they got charged in the chin by Possessed and Berserkers.

Then my Farseer exploded himself.

Guess who won?

   Starky

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Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2008, 01:33:52 PM »
Nurgle Wins, because you were in despair after losing your wraithbone wall by being pretty much ganked by your opponents whole army.

About the Title color, it's just hard to see green... sacrificing for the newbs...mark of a true fatherly figure.

My 7 Cents.
If you meet a bear named Sanctjud in the tavern, don't get into his van for candy.  I did once....it's sticky, salty, and really not very nice. :(
Raptor Jesus will get you Tangi... oh he will.

 


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