Topic: Sanctjud’s 5TH Edition CSM: Codex Rundown and Mini-Tactica.

[Sanctjud]

It's RAW, not rules lawyering...

Jump packs ARE Jump Infantry.
Wings MOVE AS Jump Infantry but are NOT designated as jump infantry, GW made the distinction between them, not use 'potential rules lawyer'.

Not everything that GW does....makes 'sense'...you SHOULD reap the benefits of wings because you have to convert it yourself, unlike easily slapped on jump packs.

My 7 Cents.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

It's RAW, not rules lawyering...

Jump packs ARE Jump Infantry.
Wings MOVE AS Jump Infantry but are NOT designated as jump infantry, GW made the distinction between them, not use 'potential rules lawyer'.

Not everything that GW does....makes 'sense'...you SHOULD reap the benefits of wings because you have to convert it yourself, unlike easily slapped on jump packs.

My 7 Cents.

Unless you buy the possessed box which comes with 2 sets of nice wings, but yeah i agree.

[archonoftheredhand]

Well Sanctjud, just got beaten by a rubber staff. Shows me glorifying Tzeentch in the Nurgle Champion's tactica.

About the GW Changes, I was just kidding. I'm one of those who already waits 5 years to get a new DE codex.

Good take on the rubric tactica but there are a few points I have to disagree with.
The most important is the idea they're only good against MeQ's.
There are alot of MeQ armies in 40K and AP 3 is also good against 4+. Most armies more elite units have 3+ or 4+.

Placing for instance a SM in cover, downgrades the effect from the bolter a bit, but he gets a 4+ instead of a 3+, it's just like you said about the 4++ save of the 1K sons.

A tactic I'm experimenting with is to drive them full speed up in a rhino, smoke launchers, and keep them in the vehicle. I've got less casualties when it explodes then when enduring a whole shooting phase out of the vehicle. Next turn get out, double tap and assault.

When I tested this some more I would like to  contribute a part about TS to your tactica if you don't mind.

[Sanctjud]

@Drudge Dreadnought:
GREAT IDEA… for someone with money to burn…
 
@Archonoftheredhand:

“Well Sanctjud, just got beaten by a rubber staff. Shows me glorifying Tzeentch in the Nurgle Champion's tactica.”

Well, check your grammar.  If you wanted to make fun of me… you would not have that comma… the ‘well sanctjud’ part is addressing me… but when you add the comma, you did not add the ‘you’, so we are left to the default ‘I’… in so, you got ‘beaten by a rubber staff.’… in which case I laugh at you.

Now, I did my part for fun, yours was not so funny, and I did end up doing TS and Arhiman…so moving on:

It’s not that they are ONLY good against MEQ… it’s that with Utility Maximization… it’s a WASTE to shoot at anything else….you are paying for AP3… and when you don’t use it against Armor 3, then you are not maximizing.

See… cover is free…they just got a beslubbering 4+ cover save to your bolters… you should be angry… it doesn’t matter that they roll a 4 instead of 3, they got a 4+ versus having NO save.  What’s worse is that stuff in Carapace armor I cover could care less about the Ap3 bolters… as no matter what they have a 4+ against it.

The tactic you are ‘experimenting’ is basically the Rhino Rush… which has been done to death, but by all means, get used to it, cause most people will be doing it, jeez I even do it.

“Next turn get out, double tap and assault.”  Just in case, you mean from a stationary vehicle… and even then, no one is stupid enough to get within 12” of a rhino only to invite a charge from the stuff inside… also S&P make it even less likely.

Anyway, I just finished being the ringer to a local event and I’ll have a little more to write about.

Some of the topics:
*First or Second Turn?
*Deployment?

___________________ ______________

Going First or Second?

It’s not always the case that you’ll favor the first turn.  They have pro’s and cons when you get to choose between them.

Going First: You get to claim the ‘better’ terrain deployment, you get to control fire lanes and dictate how the opponent will deploy.
Terrain is vital for them nice 4+ cover saves… but not only should you think about the deployment, but the turns following.

Where will my army end up halfway or at the end of the game?… do I need cover closer to the enemy because I have the speed to get there and occupy it?… do I need cover along the way for the jump pack/biker dudes?
These are questions that may decide which quarter you take.  It could be you will gamble an empty quarter to assault into a quarter with more terrain, due to the 12” push back there may be terrain in the middle that’s as good, or there may be more terrain on one side of the board so you concentrate on the left flank of a pitched battle deployment.

Also, you will get a 5/6 chance of going first, to balance out the advantages of deploying second.  This is good because you are likely to have the first turn, therefore you can plan out were you will end up with your army.

Going Second: You get to deploy in reaction to your opponent, you get to dictate how the battle is fought.

Though you do get the chance of going first 1/6 of the time, it’s not something to plan on.  You now get a major advantage, you get to decide how you fight the enemy… you know his fire lanes and can either avoid them or defend against it.

You get to deploy in a way to either hammer a single flank or break through the middle, etc.  With the likely hood of your opponent going first, you can also plan your army to be highly defensive the first turn, sticking to cover minimize damage.

Kill Points: It’s nice to go first to kill off stuff before they are ready to get to you… or silencing enemy tanks earlier… or getting the most out of infiltrators before they are made into paste.
Though going second allows you the last act of a game… it might not be the actual end, but you do go last… to gamble and do a last minute shot, or exposing a unit to get a better shot, etc.  Also it allows you to deploy to kill those ‘easy’ kill points.

Objective: Going first allows you to again, try and take out unprepared units, or silence enemy guns…IMO, going second is prob. preferable…you get last turn mad dashes to objectives to claim or contest.  Also, it allows you to ‘beat on the scoring units’ and what you want to contest with what.

Dawn of War: Going first is nice, if you want to deploy in a line and push back the opponent, but beware of castling.  And don’t fall in the trap of moving too deep into your opponents’ lines…he will reinforce where ever he needs when the rest of the army gets on the board… your support is too far back generally.

IMO… the best thing in the world would be to NOT have the choice… but that’s just me… less thinking I need to do… funny enough the better the list performs…auto-pilot/auto-win FTW!!

Deployment?

This depends on who’s setting up first.

Generally if you deploy first, you’ll want to know where your army will end up, and you deploy in that regard, but I feel one should spread out but not too much.  You want your army to be able to support each other and to not be TOO spread out.

If the opponent lines up across the board, you castle on the weaker side.
If the opponent castles in the corner, you have a choice… if you can CC them… then deploy across… if you have VERY long range guns… then castle in the opposite corner could be good.
If the opponent splits up his army, you can choose to divvy up your army to match, or hammer one flank completely.

Generally splitting your army is a delicate ordeal…you do NOT want your enemy to take advantage of this.  So you better be sure each section can take a beating or hold its own or is expendable.  It’s only worth it….IMO…. if you have a very fast army… that can eventually end up coming back together to set off a trap or two…

Infiltrators… in 5 th you’ll generally be crawling up to 18”, rarely getting the nice 12” mark.  They are cool to get things close, BUT YOU DON’T HAVE TO.  Their pro’s include deploying after your opponent when you deploy first… and not having to be held back by the deployment zone.
They can take advantage of side armor and exposed infantry.
They can outflank as well.. which is a gamble… but if the opponent has split his army on each flank… it’s a win/win no matter where they end up.

Scouts… can outflank, or get a ‘free’ move before the game.  It’s nice when it works to get you a building/cover that’s out of your deployment zone… but generally the scout ‘move’ is best in a dedicated transport…to get the most out of it.

Outflanking Rhino squad… is IMO awesome… it gives them the range to threaten stuff with their special weapons.

What to Bring to Tourneys, in Case You Didn’t Know.

Required:
*YOUR CODEX.
*The FAQ for YOUR CODEX.
*The Rulebook.
*YOUR templates.
*YOUR DICE and YOUR SCATTER DIE.
*Food/drink/or money for both.
*YOUR WORKING Tape Measure. (thank you Moc065)

Optional:
*Folding Chair and/or folding table, to hold you and your things. (thank you Moc065)
*Display Board…for them painting scores and wowz.
*Glue…for casualties.
*Camera…for evidence.
*Objective counters…for convenience.
*Laser Pointer…to blind your opponent.
*A cold…to cough on your opponents and win with Nurgle’s Rot regardless of battle outcome.
*Your Girlfriend/Wife (/shrug…it’s been a theme recently in my area).

I could be more clean with this… ordering it up more nicely… but this is Chaos… and Chaos…………is lazy……

My 7 Cents.

[Plague Tower of Nurgle]

*Your Girlfriend/Wife (/shrug…it’s been a theme recently in my area).
My 7 Cents.

who said distractions were a bad thing?

[moc065]

OK Sancty, I am here to "Taunt you a second time !"

I still feel that 8 Zerkers in  aRhino are better than 10 as it gives more potential to hold through to second round, kiling enemy off during his turn, and thus utilizing the Charge in your own turn once again... I know you agreed with me; but I wanted to Glote. Ha Ha...

Next, PF/PW on Zerker Champ (ignore the rest, as I agree that PF is better in other Chaos factors)... PW is better on a Mission Objective Holding unit (considering your foinf all Khorne, and not just taking a different MO Unit to start with).. as it save points to, you also don't need a Rhino for them; but YOu should take it to provide Mobile Cover/Terrain. I have also found that you don't always need PF's and here is why.. yes the CC assault if the best vehicle destruction tool; but not everyone has vehicles. In fact I faced a 1700pts all infantry SMurf list no to long ago and it was certainly 5th Ed viable... so Fists would be a waste or "overkill" as his entire army was about 99% 1 wound figures as well. I also feel that by having 1/3 units with PW instead of PF, your avoiding the Cookie Cutter and giving yourself an optional unit for specific usages (go get some GEQ dudes - whatever). I do agree with you on the rest of the subject too though, so feel free to edit your original post now.

I didn't think anyone needed the "how to" on the Rhino Rush, as the tactic is so old that it actually predates guys like me (that started back in 2nd Ed)... but maybe you should do it up (with pics/diagrams) for hte newer members.

In defense of Sancty's blurb on 1K sons.. I also got a game vs them  not to long ago (with my Zerker force - using some proxies still - sorry)... anyway, it has to of been one of the easiest victories I have run into. I used the Rhino Rush and yes he popped all the cans; and then I ran him over in CC... game over, infact my Preds hardly did squat, and my DP and Raptors were even working too well. (although I am revising my list slightly as per other ideas).

Things that you may wish to add to your list on "what to bring to tourny"
7.. Your tape measure.
8.. A portable chair.

And then there is a list of stuff that you should/could leave at home.
1.. A bad attitude.
2.. Whining of any sort (goes part in parcle with #1).
3.. Cell phone, seriously no-one wants to play a guy that spends more time on the phone than he does playing the game. (or put it on vibrate and only take the important calls at least).
4.. Aroma, and I am talking to a lot of gamers here,,, take a shower prior to the event, and use some deoderant... Gamer Funk is one thing as the event weres on, But 100 guys with Gamer Funk at the beginning of the event is just gross.

I know there is more; but I am actually too busy to think of them right now.
 
CaHG

[archonoftheredhand]

About the Rubber stick part, I meant I. For the grammar thing, Dutch is my language, so it's possible I make some mistakes.

The tactic you are ‘experimenting’ is basically the Rhino Rush… which has been done to death, but by all means, get used to it, cause most people will be doing it, jeez I even do it.

I'm aware it's a rhino rush.

In 3th you could drive up 12" and still charge.

In 4th you couldn't charge out of a closed vehicle + Fearless troops could get entangled and damage for being inside a damaged vehicle could be enormous.

The different thing now is, IMO, it's safer for fearless troops to stay inside the vehicle.Especially for berzerkers and 1K sons.
The enemy doesn't have to come to me, I go to him, that's why I have rhinos.
The enemy can move away, okay, if they have to leave cover or an objective for it, they're welcome.

Rhino rush exists as long as the game. But it changes every edition.
I believe this edition it isn't necessary to Move 12", get out 2", double tap and take the enemy's incoming fire + charge.
The enemy doesn't

[Sanctjud]

@Archonoftheredhand:
Ahh ok, then it was correct if you mean yourself... I just thought you wanted to take jab at me.

Yup that's it... it's a no-brainer to take rhino's if GW is removing all the reasons some people didn't take rhino's (entanglment... making explosions str 4 and 3...and a lesser escalation).

But you don't always HAVE to go to the enemy...these days I see more people tank shocking than ever... and my extension more enemies fallback from said tank shocking.

For the plageue marines they could care less even more...
Explosions wound on 5's w/ armor and FNP.... drive up, unload at an angle... benefit from cover from one direction and double tap in the other direction.

Don't forget.... you GET a 2" exit point.... but ANY part of the model can touch it... so in essense you have a 2.9" exit zone around the rhino.............. . it's so bad... but so good at the same time.

@SupREME-10:
I said it's a point of view... 8 zerkers is fine... but no matter what you are wasting those 2 seats in the rhino... utility maximization...

"I fisted St. Celestine to death."  Powerfist stay.......cause it's slaaneshi like that.
Also... wounding on 2+'s all the time is = win IMO... 3's and 4's just don't cut it.
I had str 5 lightning claws...and THAT wasn't enough to float my boat.... compared to zerker power weapons..meh.

Archon did a nice brief write up about the rhino rush... maybe I'll do a more detailed one with pics.........

I'll edit for the 'to bring stuff'.

Sure I'll edit my post for the zerker part...make sure you read it.......

My 7 Cents.

[Lullysing, Appreciator of the glory of chaos.]

4.. Aroma, and I am talking to a lot of gamers here,,, take a shower prior to the event, and use some deoderant... Gamer Funk is one thing as the event weres on, But 100 guys with Gamer Funk at the beginning of the event is just gross.

NOOOOOOO..... don't give ideas to the nurgle guy! you'll doom us all!

[Sanctjud]

So... I kind of gave up on my Eldar Tactica... cause I knew I wouldn't have as much fun as the Chaos Tactica.

So... I'll go into more indepth enemy armylist rundown.........

Which army would you like me to hammer first??

My 7 Cents.

[BaconTaser]

You deserve a poster for all the trouble and time you spent on writting this tactica.




My = Sanctjud's


Should I use this thread as a reference in my local town's public website for anyone who wants to start playing 40k? 

[Irisado]

So... I kind of gave up on my Eldar Tactica... cause I knew I wouldn't have as much fun as the Chaos Tactica.

So... I'll go into more indepth enemy armylist rundown.........

Which army would you like me to hammer first??

My 7 Cents.

Well, I feel that the Emporer's finest always deserve the heaviest hammering from the forces of Chaos, but with their new Codex having only just come out, perhaps it would be better to start with one of the other armies of the Imperium, such as Imperial Guard, Daemon Hunters or Sisters of Battle.  I particularly dislike the last two, so either of those would be a great start.

[moc065]

My vote goes to the IG... first; as they have so much diversity possible, it should keep you a little busy..

CaHG

[Sanctjud]

The Competitive Side of Things:

Things I’d Definitely Use. :

-Daemon Prince-they rock.
-Oblits-they roll
-PM-they knock your socks off.
-KB-they do what they do best.
-CSM-they do Jack of All Trades really well.

Things I’m Indifferent About. :

-Greater Daemon-too dependent on delivery.
-Lord-instant death, and pretty bland.
-Sorcerer-instant death, and pretty expensive.
-Chosen-infiltrate is a parlor trick.
-Terminators-suicide deepstrikers.
-Vindi-too loyalist.
-Havocs-too loyalist, no tank hunters.
-Raptors-haven’t impressed me.
-Defiler-unique to the list… but an expensive dreadnought.
-LD-bland…very bland.
-NM-nice with shooting, but it’s still bland.

Things I Wouldn’t Use. :

-Dreads-too random.
-Possessed-too random.
-Bikers-too expensive.
-Spawn-crap sadly utter crap.
-LR-too expensive for an identity crisis vehicle.
-Pred-too static to get the most out of.
-Them dust buckets-Because.

Next Up…. WITCH HUNTERS!!!

[moc065]

I agree that Preds a little too static for many; but I use tow to good effect, angle them to remove a lot of side armour options that the enemy could get... AutoC with Lass sides to hammer out plenty of bullets unti they die... I also feel that Oblits are not always that great as they can get hammered fairly easily by some stuff.

I would also suggest that maybe Raptors instead of CSM's or Havocs and make the list all infantry just for the Body Bags.

The rest I agree with..

CaHG

[Sanctjud]

Thanks for posting SupREME-10...now I don't have to feel guilty of double posting.

Some Random Thoughts About Fighting ‘Pure’ Witch Hunters.

Containers of the Sisters of Battle (SOB), who are also very faithful to the Emperor… and also known as SOB’s as well, also as Bolter be-atches, and Inquisitor elements used to hunt…. you guessed it….. ‘witches’.

Canoness-The regular SOB of the army.  The basic gear of this girl makes her decently killy and reasonably tough (along with faith).. making her great at dishing it out, and receiving…. 2+ inv save anyone??  One of the weaknesses is rolling that (1) against something by the str 6+ variety… but even then, she can buy out of that.  In the end, kill off her squad to force her to lose the combat and run her down instead….much easier to kill that way.  Otherwise, troops and tanks beware of the Canoness….a SOB with wings….and raging PMS issues…
Lesser Canoness-No one takes her… and if they do they gimp themselves.
Inquisitor Lord-D-bag of the sisters, he’s there to be a jerk.  He’s usually kitted out 3 ways:
Shooty-they got 3 hvy weapons with a re-roll, IMO, shoot them a lot with rate of fire weapons and let the wound allocation rolls do it for you.  It’s not like they will run away.
Close Combat-Shoot the transport, if they footslog, shoot them when it’s convenient… they will have some str 6 fists some defensive abilities….IMO, attack the squad with as much attacks as possible and just one guy hitting the inquisitor, because you will prob. cause more casualties on the regular dudes to win or draw combat…the actual result doesn’t matter as the inquisitor is a D-bag and will decide to stick around…
Hybrid-A little of both… shoot them or close combat them…. Either way, a win/win.
They also have access to transports, which add to vehicle saturation.
Priest-The WH player needs him for some of the options in his list… if you see him, prepare for a unit that will prob. end up in combat, though his defensive qualities aren't so great, he can carry some gear that can potentially be lethal... but just concentrate on getting as many wounds on the squad or on him to WIN combat.
St. Celestine-Queen of the SOB’s…and she can be a real SOB, to both players…esp. when she fails to get back on the board…she is beefy in combat and pretty tough and fast, just dump attacks on her bodyguards, or on her if she is alone…. Not much else.
Throne of Judgment-I don’t see this guy used very often…basically he has the same down side as vehicles.  He doesn’t add much to support the army, other than vehicle saturation and looking mildly cool.

Celestians-Basically Footslogging Canoness Bodyguards…they have decent ability in close combat, but still rely on faith for most of their utility.
Assassins: Generally, these guys are there to tie you up and as a distraction/take out small isolated squads.  They will die to normal attacks and will get instant killed by fists should they NOT dodge it.
(*)Eversor-These guys CAN be scary, but park some plague marines on your front line and watch the Eversor cry.  These guys are the few that can pull off the first turn charge with the new ‘severe’ LoS issues with infiltrate.
(*)Vindicare-He’s annoying, BUT… abuse TloS, keep to cover… and don’t be too afraid…he’s only got 6 (sniper) shots, in which 1 will statistically miss through the game. 
(*)Culuxus-These guys are super anti-sorcerers…. They will hurt anyone with psychic powers, but it shouldn’t be that bad…the leadership reducer can be annoying… esp. with combo charges and such…but rare do you see these guys in action, nor will you have enough psychers around him to make his guy THAT uber.
(*)Callidus-SOB of the assassins.  Comes in anywhere for some flamyness, then charges, and eventually dies.  ‘A word in your ear’ is annoying, but it’s acceptable in that ‘s it’s only used once.  Just plan for a tank or squad being moved out of cover.  If there’s nothing useful to do, the enemy will prob. just move the squad away from his lines or putting hvy weapon squads behind LoS blocking terrain.
The flamer Is not too bad, as most of our guys have high leadership.  In combat, she’s not too fierce…and the phase blade is largely useless against most of the squads she wants to fight.  Just don’t bunch up and keep squads near each other to support each other..if she MUST die.
Deathcult Assassins-these girls have a few roles that serve to annoy you.  They are there to push your infiltrators back should they win the roll off for infiltrators.  They are there to tarpit our squads, and are somewhat lethal, or support a combat.
They die easier than the ‘real’ assassins, but are equally annoying.  Remember, they don’t have frag grenades, so stick to cover, and hope she dies to regular attacks.
Flagellants-you don’t see these guys very often… but they are like the Penitent Engines, they are there to do target saturation.  They can NOT be ignored, but are tougher than the sisters and have a decent save to boot….so bring dump something on them eventually, or you can gamble on them to kill themselves…but I don’t suggest that.
Inquisitors-lesser D-bag than the Lord…these guys usually show up to get access to the assassins.  Other than that they usually run with a smaller retinue with some ranged or cc weapons, and they can run solo, to add some gear onto other squads in the army.
Repentia-Sisters Overcompensating for something…these girls should be shot dead if operating in small numbers….and they should be plasma cannoned or hvy bolstered or pie plated if in big numbers….. though they hit slow, they can hit hard…. Str 6 power weapons are pretty hurty if given the chance…they are expensive and light on the defensive side, so they don’t show up much.

Sisters of Battle-The bread and butter of the list.  Spammable squad like these:
Mech: 10 sisters, flamer, hvy flamer, Faith icon,  Superior w/ evicerator/book, rhino….something like that… they have multiple tempates and faith icon for guidance, the superior for leadership stubbornness and CC support.  There’s not much about killing these girls…. Medium strength weapons take out the rhino’s while the small arms and Close combat kill the sisters… you are unlikely to make them run or stay running, but it just means you need to take out squads completely….which is a good reason in itself to do just that.
Footslogg: 10+ sisters 2 stormbolters, Faith icon, superior w/ evicerator/book……..not much else but power armor spam…just plasma cannon these squads….it will be hard for them to get their inv. Save.
Storm Troopers-They add easily spammable special weapon squads…they are not very tough, but they will be good at what they do… bringing plasma/melta weaponry to the table, kill these first, as they are more fragile than the sisters.  Small arms, hvy.bolter, or even plasma cannons are ok.

Seraphim-these flying SOB’s are decent for what they do….bodyguard flying Queen SOB’s into combat, and have utility in shooting as well.  Due to the relative speed, they get into nice flamer and inferno pistol range, though I believe the flamer+faith will be the usual.  They don’t have many wounds, so if they are exposed, causing some casualties shouldn’t be that hard.  Though they don’t SEEM like they are good in CC…. They are not good, but it’s the usage of faith… and the IC they protect that will give you headaches…
Dominions- FEAR the 4 templates that may unload WITH faith or the 4 meltas slagging an MC or Tank.  If/when these girls show up, shoot them a lot… it’s not that many wounds to take out.  Just don’t leave them alive when exposed, they are a world of hurt.
Immolator-These vehicles are pretty mean with faith, mobile flamer of twin-linking doom, also, do not let the small cargo size fool you…. It may only hold 6, but prob. the max special weapons they can carry is 4…. So they will be maximizing whatever they shoot when they pile out.

Exorcist-This is their main tank…the SOB of tanks…it has variable rate of fire, but make no mistake, these things are made to kill anything they hit, tank/mc/infantry, anything.  The best thing for you is to hit it with something just enough to stun/shake/weapon destroy, then move on… if left to their own devices, they will kill something important.
Retributors-these are usually the 3 rd hvy support slot, and generally with 4 hvy. Bolters… with faith, these can be murderous for MEQ or not.  They have a high rate of fire and decent range… it’s best to stick to cover, move fast in a transport, or use LoS blocking to your advantedge.
Penitent Engines-Don’t be fooled, these guys can be a pain if left unchecked.  They are not hard to glance/pen, but that is their role, absorbing anti-tank fire, and hopefully getting into combat to used them high str power weapons.

FAITH/Misc.:
(*)Faster-they can strike faster than our regular marines…..but generally this is only good if they have faith to burn and they already activated the AP1 thing for a big gamble.
(*)Inv Save-if used well, it sort of feels like a squad is fortuned….but not really.  This is something that will come up against smaller units hit by plasma weaponry or power weapon equivalents in combat.  This is the thing were we see 2+ inv. Save SOB’s in the HQ category.  So just have a lot of joe attacks to back up a fight or shooting.
(*)Ap1-This is prob. the crown of faith usage… nice when shooting flamers as well, but doable with high rate of fire weapons or double tapping.  It’s nice when it goes off….so keep to cover when NOT facing the AP1 flamer.  Still these rolls rely on rolling a 6, so it’s hit or miss.
(*)Fearless-this one you rarely see, but when used in the best situation…it’s awesome…basically, kill units dead.
(*)Book of St.Stubborn-it’s nice when the opponent uses it to stay in combat for a 2 turn combat on YOUR turn….otherwise, prepare to slam into a squad and get stuck there…..maybe for more than 2 turns.
(*)KEEP TRACK OF FAITH, it makes a difference!
(*)KNOW what you need to roll for faith, just ask before hand.
(*)KEEP TRACK OF FAITH ICON usage… he can only use it once per turn (game or player turn I’m not sure, just ask beforehand).

‘Those’ Lists:
(*)3 Exorcists-not much you can do but to stun/shake as many as you can, just stick to cover, that reduces damage by half already.
(*)Mech-This is a fast army that will make the most of faith by usually dumping it into divine guidance….you know…the Ap1goodness.  They are fast enough to place shots where they need them, and have enough bodies to absorb damage and deal it, esp. with double tapping and flamers.  It’s basically neutralizing up to maybe 50% of the rhino’s…and not spreading too thin.
(*)Footslogging-these lists are more varied than the Mech list… prob. incorporating repentia/ Flagellants/P-engines…etc.  You’ll see stormbolter girls moving up and shooting.  They will prob. have evicerator superiors.  Squads can number past 10 girl squads…. So there can be a horde of power armor on the board, with a decent number of units with power weapon equivalents.  I do suggest concentrated long range fire, and patience.  The opponent prob. has more counter attackers than you do, so letting him/her charge, double tap could be worth it to get them away from their counter attack.

My 7 Cents.

[moc065]

No doouble post again...

Anyway the Bolter be-atches were very well done. The "Word in the Ear" is also used to bring things like a DP forward to saturate fire his arse early on, so watch for this one (use bigger cover, OK)... but as you said the Assisin itself is usually short lived and not that much of a threat (if you follow the Chaos carnal rules -mistake in spelling intended-)...

Oh, I also did a serious re-read through this thread and have a few more suggestions/comments; but I will drop them in tomorrow as I want to make suer their well organized and easy to corralate to each topic.

Cheers, and keep up the Great work... we can get a mod to clean this all up after, too... so they comments magically vanish (then you will look really smart, like you did it all in one shot).

 

[Sanctjud]

That sounds cool....as long as it make chaos look good.

Some Random Thoughts About Fighting Kroot Mercenaries.

Master Shaper-Can be kitted out to multiple roles, mostly suicidal.
Shaper Council-Armory whores…able to tailor to any situation.

Headhunter-Useless, at most re-rolling to wound 1 measley attack.
Stalker-Useless. Jungle fighting.?? That died with the Catachan 'codex'...

Carnivore-the guys that provide the important bodies.

Trackers-No longer that useful to them.
Hound-This is the horde unit, crazy number of attacks.
Vultures-Outflanking jump troopers, pretty scary on the charge.

Hunter-hit or miss in terms of lethality…rending does help them  out…needing to hit doesn’t.
Krootox-they are still over priced for what they get.  It’s not so scary.
Punji-No, just no, don’t worry about this too much if you get pinned…sucks for you.

Those Lists.[/B]:
(*)1st Turn Charge-blood of the stalker is very helpful now.

Basically this army is a one trick pony…they are great to kill GEQ type armies and tyranids, but only if they get the first turn.
Kroot have next to no saves…. If they slam into MEQ’s and they make average saves… and the SM hit back…. The new Combat Resolution hurts kroot a lot, due to the fragile nature of them…and with the numbers that die, you might see some rolls needing snake-eyes fast…even with a squad still at 12-14 models strong.
If you don't like close combat, (IMO the easiest way to kill a bunch in sweeping)...shooting will be a pain... due to 3+ cover in forests.... and the nice 4+ cover everywhere to help out their 'fragile' nature....at which point you focus fire until a morale test and move on.... or bring fast moving flamers.....BBQ chicken, yum.

My 7 Cents.

[moc065]

Appologizing for the longevity of this reply; but you can scroll through a lot of the test, as only my comments will be in red, and you porbably already read what Sanctjud had to say.

The Chaos Lords: Lean and Mean is my theory too
He is a supporting element to the army, in Close Combat.  He’s very straight-forward, as his CC options outnumber his ranged gear.

Unique to Lords are Daemon Weapons:
I think the possibility of rolling a (1) out weights the bonuses of this pricey weapon.
(*)Undivided: It’s decent if you don’t go the Juggernaut route.
(*)Khorne: I’m risk averse, so it’s a no for me… high risk with medium rewards due to meh strength levels… I like it; but you need to consider placement, etc very carefully or its a big risk.
(*)Slaanesh: Whoop-ti-do….like anyone cares for instant death these days.
(*)Nurgle: It’s nicer in 5 th ed. I hate to say it; but probably the best option.

Pair of Lighting Claws: IMO, the best option for the lord, makes him better in combat and makes up for the meh strength, without the possibility of biting the lord and robbing him of ALL his attacks.

Wings>Jump Packs: Hands down, wings allow you to get into transports and looks bad ass. Wings all the way...
“Steeds”
(*)Undivided-AKA Chaos Bike.  It’s the fastest, tougher, and keeps up with bikers, but of limited usage if you don’t use other bikers en mass.
(*)Khorne-The best steed IMO…the extra Strength is AWESOME…just run if you want speed. Best for me too
(*)Slaanesh-It’s nice and fast, but few things can really support a lord at these kinds of speeds (except spawn..heh), so other than a fun ‘assassin’…it’s not a great use.
(*)Nurgle-Sadly it’s the worst Steed… generally it’s power fists that kill IC’s so… the extra wound is useless… Can suck so hard, that you might as well give the points to your opponent.

The Chaos Sorcerers: DP is just so much better that there is almost no comparison.
He is another supporting element to the army, in close combat and at range.  He has more range options than the Lord due to psychic powers, but results in a more expensive choice.
Same opinions about speed gear on Sorceror as the Lord.  Speed is more important to a shooty Sorcerer.  Hide in a squad and jump out when the time is right to strike, and you don’t mind gambling with them no longer attached.
 
BOTH the Lord and the Sorcerer are IC’s… USE THIS and protect them.  They support the army, strive to stay away from getting Str 8+ stuff from hitting them…cause the biggest con for these guys is not having eternal warrior…
 
The Daemon Princes: I should they actually be called Daemon Rock Star Princes, as they far outshine the rest.
What can I say, they rock…they rock so hard they eclipse the other choices…. It’s not that the IC’s are crap… it’s just that the DP is better in many different areas.
We can describe the DP as the fusion of the Lord/Sorc./and Greater Daemon…he’s beefy in combat, has psychic powers, and is an MC.
His uses include: Cheap HQ, killy versus infantry and tanks, draw fire, contest objectives, fear factor.
Eternal Warrior is the big thing that makes it better than the Characters…but the balance comes from the ‘can’t hide in squads any more’ nature of being an MC.
Wings are a no-brainer…
The DP configs I use:
Daemon Prince + Wings: Best config IMO… cheap enough to be expendable, but the enemy can’t ignore him. Unless you going for a Themed list, of the Lash Factor... this is deffinately the best config.
Daemon Prince + MoN + Wings: For fluffy lists… it’s great when the Toughness helps… but in general it’s the str 8+ weapons hurting them.
 
The Greater Daemon: No comment as I never tried him.
Nice Stats for the points, but it’s dependent on delivery and that the enemy not spread out too thin.  They don’t have the long term ‘in your face’ title of the Daemon Prince.  The inv save kinda sucks for non-low AP weapons.
 
Delivery Options:
(*)Chosen: They have the cheapest Champ and set up closer to the enemy.
(*)Raptors/Bikers/Rhino squads: are fast, but require the death of an IMPORTANT champ… not a joe champ like the Chosen who can get more than one.
 
Psychic Powers:
(Dealing with DP’s and Sorcerers)
(*)DoomBolt: Cheap…nothing really more, not the best.  It’s decent at sniping already mauled squads, as you’re likely to hit and kill 1 or 2.
(*)Gift of Chaos: Fun, but nothing to count on.  Great to by-pass uber save units, but the timing of the power is not very desirable. 
(*)Wind of Chaos: Decent with wings, great way to get past tough guys with good armor saves, not great versus GEQ’s but nice to have.
(*)Warp Time: Meh, I’d rather have a Lord w/ Claws.
(*)Nurgle’s Rot: Meh, this is a tailored power.
(*)Lash of Submission: I think it’s too mean, so I don’t use it, nor will I write any more on it. In small games it can be game altering; but all in all, it just puts a big bullseye on the GD... If I am playing vs it, I simply poor bullets into it for a round and its gone... seriously... and some opponents can seriously impede the Psy powers use, so its not as good as some people think. (Psy hood, Runes of Warding)
 
Elites:

The Chosen: I have seen these work well enough; but they are not great.
Infiltrating/outflankers…I have an indifferent attitude towards them…not good/no great, I’d rather have a Havoc squad in a Rhino… being as infiltrating will most likely be 18” away these days.  They can be fun and a good distraction.  They do provide a versatile small foot print heavy weapon, or a Deepstrike/summoning platform… but I don’t think they offer too much to the chaos army.
What I envision of using: 10 Chosen, IoCG, 2 melta, Champ +Fist (255pts)
EDIT: Only 1 Champion... if a Greater Daemon delivery, then replace the fist with Lightning Claws and meltabombs on some joe.
 
The Chaos Terminators: Now I like these and have sen the suicide squads (below) used extremely well. I go for bigger squads (theme issue OK, must be 8 of them).. and I actually like the RAC better than the Flamer... as its more universally usefull, regardless of delivery, enemy, etc..
I don’t see them as better… cheaper but NOT FEARLESS…that’s the turn-off for me.  I personally see them in one role: Suicide Deepstrike Combi-weapon Delivery.  Maybe 3-5 termies all with combi plasma or melta and maybe a hvy.flamer.
I tried 3 with a RAC, it looked fluffy, but it didn’t perform well enough to keep them…nor the price tag for two squads of them.
What I would personally take: 3 Terminators w/ 3 Combi-weapons. (105pts) As mentioned this can be totally sick, do it 2-3 times and watch the enemy shake his head in frustration...

The Possessed: I think their crap. Overpriced and too unreliable.
I personally don’t like them…I’d rather get a cult trooper and know what they do.  Special Note: YOU CAN’T OUTFLANK WITH THEM…thank you GW for the stupid rules… anyway, the free move in a rhino can be fun…otherwise I stay away from them…but you all will like what you like.
So, what are they good for: Counter-Assaulters… due to the lack of special CCW’s or heavy investment, they don’t make great front liners.  They are better off helping a squad finish up in combat.
 
(*)Scout: Meh… allows them to move some more, or a lot with a rhino…but not good for counter attackers…maybe good for distraction…but NO OUTFLANKING.  I’d rather get Chosen to outflank or Raptor/bikers for speed.
(*)Furious Charge: It’s decent for counter charger…and has utility for taking out weaker back armor tanks.  I personally would rather get zerkers.
(*)Fleet: Meh…decent for having a larger threat range when counter charging, it’s not like you have any guns on them…I’d rather have the raptors or bikers.
(*)Rending: Only way to get it in the CSM list…it’s meh really, best if you get the charge.
(*)FNP: I’d rather have plague marines.
(*)Power Weapons: The crown jewel here, gives an addition attack as well (2 hand weapons, it’s how I interpret the RAW there so no arguing about this point).  Makes them into a superior threatening counter assaulter, and maybe boosting them up to main assaulter, depending on the squad size.

The Chaos Dreadnoughts: Lean and mean is best as Sancty said.
I personally don’t like them… should you take them…I always suggest two ‘safe’ configs:
2 DCCWs or the Missile Launcher (both 100pts)… keeps the dread cheap and pretty safe to shoot your own army.  Dreads provide infantry support when they listen to you, and are never affected by a lost combat.
Them not listening to you is annoying, but they do add ‘cheap’ armor on the board to saturate it.
 
More to follow, screw the Double post crap.

[moc065]

Continueing from where I left off...

Troops:

The Awesome Sauce Plague Marines: I agree that these are the Best Mission Objective holders, etc.. but they are limited too. As turely competive lists should have some diversity to make them work vs anything. So I do not suggest just grabbing PM's everytime you think you need more troops.
They are the rockstars in my army… doing what they do best and showing their love for Grandfather Nurgle.  They are the ultimate all-comer units, able to do Shooting and close combat… they are not the best at those two areas, but they have the durability to grind the enemy over time and make up with quantity of shots/hits than quality.  They can supplement or compliment their roles with champion weapons and special weapons.  They come in 2 Flavors… footslogging Cloud of Flies and Rhino Squad Rot Walls.
Champion: ALWAYS a powerfist… there’s little reason to take a power weapon on this guy.
(*)Plasma: Tempting due to FNP balance and the FNP to cover already less likely overheats when double tapping… I personally loath using plasma, but they are a good choice on PM’s.
(*)Melta: IMO, these are the all-comer guns…handling infantry, MC, and tanks.
(*)Flamers: Nice if you get there, esp. with the new template resolutions…but it’s a very one-dimensional weapon.
All special weapons get so much better when on Rhino’s…the speed lets you get into doublt tap range, melta range, and optimal flamer range.
The configs I take:
(Footslogging) 18 PM’s, 2 Plasma Guns, Champ + Fist (484pts)
(Rhino Squad) 10 PM’s, 2 Melta, Champ +Fist, Rhino (325pts) If you doing themed lists though, the addition of Flamers instead of Melta's can be done for the Rhino squads (about 1 in 3 units)... so that you get some diversity... also ensure that you list has other things to provide balance as some armies are actually OK at removing PM's

The Chaos Space Marines:
The vanilla marines with uber grit… these are generally the back bone to a Chaos army... being relatively cheaper even when geared up and able to handle the situations they may or may not be geared for.
I personally go with: 10 CSM, 2 melta, champ + fist, IoCG, Rhino. (255pts) This is sweet and effective, again the flamer can be subbed in for diversity instead of Melta's... these make a nise back-up unit BTW...

Khorne Bezerkers: It should be noted that these are the best, not the PM's as they can actually get to those MO's... reliably and  they don't need a Rhino, but their better with one.
They like charging into CC… there’s little else to talk about…get them a rhino and a champ with a power fist and you are good to go.  I choose powerfist over power weapon.. because the fist offers more kill and less need for the charge.
Really, these guys are awesome on the charge, decent in combat without it… they don’t shine well in shooting.  They really need to be in combat…and that’s about it…there’s little to say.
I personally would go with: 10 Zerkers, Champ + Fist, Rhino. (285pts) Sick sick unit... I go for 8 instead of 10 as I do themed lists and I find that I don't want to overkill the enemy... I prefer to finish CC on his turn so that I don't get shot up while being in the open. Also, the switch of Power Weaon for hte PF can be done for about 1 in 3 squads if your going for multiple squads... saves a couple points, and the PW has uses vs many infantry out there.

The Noise Marines: I am not convinced that these are pointed corectly, as I think they are slightly over-costed... (1 pt)
-Without sonic weaponry… they are overcosted MEQ’s…plain and simple… only good for taking the bullet for other guys WITH sonic weaponry.
-With Sonic Weaponry, now you are talking, there is a note about body bags… some like it others don’t. I like the body bag Idea.. but I usually have full squads with Sonics because I have the extra points. With these mobile weapons, you’ll want to ‘kite’ with them…which would be moving forward to get range to shoot at an advancing enemy, then moving backwards and maximizing the number of turns you have to shoot down the advancing opponent.
 
(*)Sonic Blaster-Decent weapons, it causes the squad to be pricey when a whole squad gets them, but they do their job well…. Mobile Anti-infantry… and Immobile Murder-infantry.  Their hvy mode has the same MEQ killing power as them AP3 bolters…
(*)Blast Master-Quadrupled in price, adding in better AP values. It’s a cool weapon…but severely unreliable for the cost you pay.
(*)Doom Siren-Super flamer, but needs the speed of the rhino to get it in the best position…and kind of pricey, it’s effective cost being 30 points…
Champ: Power weapon vs. Power fist: Though the I5 is nice, it really depends on what the Champ will most likely be facing… I usually use the fist as default, but with noise marines, IMO, a champ is not needed, maybe good for the +1 LD for leadership tests.
 
Squad’s To Talk About:
 
6 NM, 6 SB (150pts): Small and pour out a lot of fire…problems: easy to kill.
10 NM, 10 SB (250pts): Big and even more firepower…problems: relatively easy to kill. the 6 and 10 man squad are the best, as Sancty elluded to... the BM is total crap for its points, especially vs certain enemies.
5-6 NM, BM (140-160pts): Cheapest heavy weapon troops squad you will get, but I still don’t like it…too easy to snipe off the main weapon.
6-10 NM, Champ + Stuff and a DoomSiren in a rhino: Drive-by flaming sounds fun, I haven’t used this, but it seems fun to do, but not my cup of tea.
 
The Thousand What?
Oh them guys… They have earned this title: “The first unit to be included in the Crap Legion list I posted some time back”.  Moving on:
Now, something must be said about these body bags... I too think they are crap, as they paid for a Save that is slightly better than most guys get simply by using a little Cover.... They are overcosted for 5th Ed (a couple points at least)... they can be a decent add on squad; but themed lists are tough to actually make work vs all comers.
 
The Lesser Daemons:
I’ve actually tried these guys out… though they have won me one game, I still don’t like them.  They add bodies… but kroot prob. do that better…
LD’s excel at adding bodies and attacks into CC, but can swing the other way as they are more fragile to the normal attacks of the 40K universe, and the opponent can take advantage of the new Combat Resolution mechanic.
They can screen a unit when they come in and are not in charge range; running helps with that.  Last but not least, they can score…, going to ground for a nice 3+ or even a 2+ if it’s a bunker.
Comparatively Cheap and expendable, but they are still pricey for what you get… and lost a world of flavor with the codex transition, and that is why I don’t like them.
What I take: 10 LD’s + 3 personal icons on the cult troops. (130 + 15pts)
I take 8 LD's +2 Pers Icons (118)... Its cheap and dirty, and thats the way Chaso should be... Lets face it, their body bags that can do a little if your lucky, etc... I still like them though, as the figures can absolutely rock.
 
The Rhino: When in doubt add Troops, if still in doubt, give those troops a Rhino... This should be one of the Official Rules of Chaos.
GOD awesome in 5 Th Edition… everything is a good, no more entanglement, only a str 3 hit, no more escalation, the need for speed in 5 th, the ability to cary other squads… tank shocking, ramming, mobile cover….AT shooting absorber with cover and smokes…. There is only ONE negative… they are worth a Kill Point…. That’s it…..god awesome….I usually take one with nothing… just a stock Rhino.
A note: if you take vehicles, you’ll need to do armor saturation… failing that target saturation… cause in the end, it’s not that hard to kill 1-3 rhino’s/vehicles…the more the better.
Naked is best; but I still take 1 Havoc in 3 Rhino's as I like the weapon figure (seriously - sorry to scare you)... Look at the tactics Sancty give you for them... 
Note on Extra Armor: It’s ok if you have the extra points, but it’s no a ‘must have’…. But generally the rhino is good naked, without any upgrades…
Note on Daemonic Possession: No…just no.
Note on Havoc Launchers: ONLY if you will use the gun for EVERY turn.  If you are using the rhino to transport first and shoot second, it’s not an efficient use of the rhino...

What can Rhino’s Do: OK, read this part until you eyes bleed, go get a band-aid (see through) and read it some more....
Transport stuff/not just own squad, mobile cover to block LoS, mobile cover to provide cover saves, drawing fire, tank shocking stuff/off objectives, ramming, contesting objectives, annoying stuff with combi-bolter, be impassible terrain for movement and deepstrike purposes/prevent charges and moving onto objectives, or blocking fallback moves.  Shelter/protect units inside, baiting things with rage and opponents who like to charge early even if it’s an empty ‘useless’ rhino.
 
Fast Attack:

The Raptors: I love them.
They are not too different from Assault Marines.  They are fast, can enter combat after the long move and carry the normal champ and special weapons…a note: NEVER take plasma guns on these guys if you wan these guys in combat.
I like power fist on these guys, but the pair of lighting claws is unique to this kind of squad, therefore it’s worth a mention.  I would rather use a powerfist, but I use Claws on my raptors because they look badass…which is more important. Up there in the top 10 best looking Chaso figures, fer sure.
A squad I take: 10 Raptors, 2 melta, Champ with (fist or Claws), IoCG (270pts) I like to take 8 for fluff resons); and I don't liek to overkill anything.... and IoCG is better than IoK.. and yes I tired both... the re-roll to LD is game altering, an extra attack is not.

The Chaos Bikers:  Holy f---ing price tag, compared to other races...
Meh… though fast, they are pricey for special weapon delivery and are not a real close combat unit, pricey in that you don’t have a lot of bodies to special weapon ratio or too many bodies to saturate the squad.  As for icons… the nurgle one CAN be fun… but I personally don’t like it… to get the most out of it.. you’ll want 7+ bikers… but with the icon and special weapons.. you are in the are of ridiculous for number of points you spend on the squad.
A fun squad I thought of using: 10 Bikers, 2 melta, champ+fist, IoCG (400pts) But look at it with the MoN... they become t=?? anywya you get the point... they are expensive; but they can bo so tough that some enemies just can't deal with them, Although I would only attake 8 of them (theme again, and to save some points - less to get Tarpited as well).

The Chaos Spawn: I think these are actuall worse than the 1k Sons crap.
No, just no…their transition from 4 TH Ed CSM codex to 5 TH was a complete 180 degrees.  I swore by them in 4 TH Ed CSM Codex, now they are utter crap…overpriced even for taking frenzy shots from the dreadnought.
IMO, they are ONLY useful when you use Gift of Chaos in an OBJECTIVE based game…if you are playing Kill Points…just use the power as a sniper and DON’T put down a spawn model…
I generally wouldn’t put the spawn model and just leave them home…. With no armor they can contribute negatively to a combat outcome.
Ha… I wrote more about the Crap Spawns than the Less-Than-Dirt-Thousand-Whatevers.

OK, Sancty... thats it for now... I'll do more later on, and sorry for the length. I do have some additional "Good" stuff for your concept spot though, so take a serious look a thtat when I get to it.

Oh and you did a great job; I just thought a little less biased view might help some (your a walking advertisment for Nurlge)...

CaHG