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Main => 40K Rules and Questions => Topic started by: Severice on November 4, 2012, 01:58:51 PM
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I've been looking over my Tyranids codex and I've run into a few models that have various special rules for melee attacks. the Hammer of Wrath special rule states attacks are resolved at unmodified STR and AP -. However, it says nothing about special rules not applying to these attacks.
First, and most straight forward, is poison. Gargoyles and Shrikes and several monstrous critters can take Toxin Sacks giving them a 4+ poison attack. It would make sense to me that the hammer of wrath attacks now wound of a 4+ with the re-roll option for str => toughness.
If that applies then does rending? shrikes are str 4, would the attacks count as rending on a 6? Rending states that a 6 always wounds, it also states that the attack ignores armor saves. So while the attack is still resolved at STR 4 and AP -, an armor save is not allowed.
Smash, smash is a special rule for monstrous critters. Part of it states all of it's attacks in melee count as AP2. This, to me, sounds like a set modifier, as is the special rule for HoW which is a set modifier for AP. Does this follow the rules for multiple set modifiers? (essentially a coin flip).
I'm only curious about special rules, the rules for wargear seem rather straight forward in regards to HoW, your wargear doesn't apply, because your not using it. However, these are special rules that apply to all attacks made by the model.
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I would say its an attack separate to the models normal attacks and thus nothing other than base strength attack with modifiers is allowed.
At the end if the day, you're trying to make a modification.
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I beg to differ,
The rule states that the model makes an additional attack, and makes no reference to that attack being 'seperate' from the models attacks, but rather stating that it's another attack, at a higher initiative, at the unmodified strength and a fixed ap. The way I see it, strength and AP are fixed, as it states, but seeing as no mention of special rules being unusable is made, they should (and do) apply.
On Rending, check the wording again, it does give a fixed AP value, and seeing as it's resolved at AP-, that special rule has no effect on the AP. I am fairly confident however that Shred is effective in this case, and the ability to wound on a 6 is also effective.
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I suggest you read rending again if you're claiming it has no effect on AP...
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I'd say things like poison and rending/shred does not work since they modify the to wound roll or the AP of the attack, however I'm a bit uncertain on how the ruling would be on "weirder" effects such as concussive.
Perhaps all weapon effects should be ignored, since I can imagine the models kicking their victims while making the HoW attacks and therefore are not actually using their weapons. GW should FAQ this.
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Again, the HoW rules make no mention of the 'to wound' roll, only of the strength of the attack, which is unaffected by poison/rending.
Perhaps all weapon effects should be ignored, since I can imagine the models kicking their victims while making the HoW attacks and therefore are not actually using their weapons. GW should FAQ this.
Perhaps, but that's clearly not RAW, so it really isn't relevant to the rules discussion.
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Josh, your arguement doesn't work. It's a logical fallacy, the "doesn't say I can't" when you said "...but seeing as no mention of special rules being unusable is made..." You're attempting to claim that because it doesn't say you can't do something you can do whatever you want. This isn't how the rules work.
Besides that attempting to use something like rending is clearly wrong as it would change the AP, HoW states which AP to use so that's what you use.
You might as well point out that hammer of wrath doesn't say you can't make 200 extra attacks or it doesn't say you can't throw all your opponents models on the floor... It's the same logic as what you're using.
It clearly states that you resolve an attack with the str and ap listed. That's it. If you were allowed to use other special rules it would tell you so.
You have nothing but wishful thinking.
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From the 6th edition rulebook FAQ, answers the question pretty well.
Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath, do
these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious Charge,
Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear it is
equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.
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Thanks Wisdom.