Topic: Starting 1500 hybrid list for c&c

[tzeentchling]

So I've been around these boards for quite a few years now, and made comments and critiques on many an army list, but yesterday I finally took out my own Eldar army to the field of battle!  The list performed quite well, netting massacres/solid victories in both of the games I played - though this may be due to my opponent's armies being hamstrung by the missions.  Anyway, I will admit that the list was mostly formed by wanting to try out a variety of units and see how they all work, but I'd like your opinions on how to make the list better.

HQ:
Farseer, RoWarding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide, singing spear - 138
The army buffer, I have a lot of units in the army that benefit from Doom, and Guide can make Reapers or Avengers quite nasty.

Elites:
6 Fire Dragons, inc. Exarch with Dragon's Breath, Crack Shot - 113
Snakes on a plane plan, though of course not limited to taking out vehicles - used them quite effectively to wipe out a 6-man HB Dev squad in one game.

10 Banshees, inc. Exarch with Executioner, War Shout - 187
Wave Serpent, twin shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines - 130
The real hammer of the army - fragile as it is!  They form either a counter-attack squad against agressive armies, or can go off hunting on their own as need be.

Troops:
10 Dire Avengers, inc. Exarch with SS/PW, bladestorm, defend - 177
The other primary unit.  They form essentially the Farseer's bodyguard and are in return often helped by him with his powers.  They can usually hold their own in close combat against decent enemies, at least until the Banshees arrive.

3 Jetbikes, shuriken cannon - 76
Part throwaway unit, part just fast unit, part last-turn table-quarter holder.  One game I used them quite effectively to lure an assault squad into bladestorm range, the other I used them to JSJ and snipe around, then challenge a table quarter.

5 Pathfinders - 120
Snipers par excellence of course, also helped by Doom and occasionally Guide, useful against MCs and Terminators sometimes.  Can infiltrate to deny opponents spots for them to infiltrate if need be.

Fast Attack:
8 Warp Spiders, ic. Exarch with dual DS, power blades, Withdraw - 218
The last of the main units, I just love these guys, from the amount of high-strength firepower they can put out to the fact that they can be really fast if need be.  They allow me to react to any surprises my opponent may have, and can often survive longer than would be expected thanks to the 3+ save.  In this small an army, I think the powerblades add a bit more effectiveness and versatility to the list.

Heavy Support:
5 Dark Reapers - 175
Really, possibly overcosted and not useful against too many armies, but worth their weight in gold against Marines, especially with guide/doom.  They can either deploy and deny opponents good places to deploy, or just wipe out squads.  They also attract firepower that would otherwise be directed at my tanks or other squishy units.  The exarch is I think overpriced in this squad and doesn't add enough, so I've not put one in.

Falcon, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, holofield - 165
Not quite a god-falcon - note the lack of VE, mostly because of points - but it's still nice to be on the other side of the holofields for once.  Transport for the Dragons mostly.  I don't think I ever got to fire it once in the two games I played, so I see no need to upgrade its weapons further.

Total: 1499

The list has a pretty good mix of selections from the FOC, and at least one unit that can handle anything my opponent fields.  The general plan is to advance up the field behind terrain with the DAs and Spiders, with the Pathfinders and Reapers providing covering fire, the jetbikes running interference, the Falcon dropping off the Dragons to slag something and then supporting the rest of the army, and the banshees forming either a mobile strike force or a counter-assault unit as the situation calls for.  The Farseer Dooms the most dangerous unit in his sight each turn, and Guides either the Reapers or Avengers usually.

So, please, suggest any comments or criticism you have.  Again, I mostly threw this list together to try out various units in the army, and I'm not exactly trying to tune it to tournament viciousness, but holes in tactics or other problems that I haven't addressed would be welcome.

[moc065]

HQ:
Farseer, RoWarding, Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide, singing spear - 138

Elites:
6 Fire Dragons, inc. Exarch with Dragon's Breath, Crack Shot - 113
10 Banshees, inc. Exarch with Executioner, War Shout - 187
     Wave Serpent, twin shuriken cannon, spirit stones, vectored engines - 130

Troops:
10 Dire Avengers, inc. Exarch with SS/PW, bladestorm, defend - 177
3 Jetbikes, shuriken cannon - 76
5 Pathfinders - 120

Fast Attack:
8 Warp Spiders, ic. Exarch with dual DS, power blades, Withdraw - 218

Heavy Support:
5 Dark Reapers - 175
Falcon, shuriken cannon, spirit stones, holofield - 165

Total: 1499pts, 8 Scoring Units, 52 Figures

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential: Fire Dragons and s few Side/rear armour units does not cover a lot of anti-tank. Its speed may help; but I think this is area is Slightly Below Average (.5)
2.. Anti-MEQ potential: Loads of shots, lots of str, and good AP...not to mention the combo's this area is covered pretty well, Very Good (.9)
3.. Anti-Horde potential: Holding untis, some numbrs, moads of shots, and some combo's, so overall its Very Good (.9)
4.. Ranged Firepower potential: About half of hte untis have good ranged firepower so its Good (.8 )
5.. Assault potential: A couple of Holding units, and one decent Assault unit, so this area could use a bit of attention, Average (.6)
6.. Scoring Units / point level: 8 Scoring units is Above Average (.7)
7.. Durability or Resilience: There are some seriously soft units here, and the Skimmers could be tweeked to boot, so this area could definately use some work, Slightly Below Average (.5)
8.. Flexibility: It will suffer badly against many lists but it could do well in certain scenerios, Average (.6)
9.. Mission Capability: It can do something in any circumstance although things like an Autarch, or more Ground forces would actually help it out, so Average (.6)
10. Dynamics and/or Theme: I see it as a total Fun list, with a theme specific to the more "Old School" way of laying Eldar, and although the units can wrok together they do need some attention to be truely synergetic. Average (.6)
 
Rating = 6.7 Others may score if differently and I actually feel as though I am being generous as this is deffinately a "Fun" list with a bit of gear towards infantry SM armies.

CaHG

[tzeentchling]

Thanks for the work, moc.  How would you suggest changing it around to make it stronger/more general?  I suppose that's a hard question to ask when I explicitly stated it wasn't designed to be tournament competitive.  Perhaps a better question might be, how might it change to address some of the weaknesses you've pointed out?

[moc065]

The biggest weakness is Durability and anti-tank; so I would start there...

Drop the DR for a Fireprism: HF, VE, SS (180). Then tirm the Warpspider to 6 (smaller is easier to hide). Add VE to the Falcon. Guide and SS on the Farseer ar no longer needed. Then add Warlock on Jetbike with Destructor and Spear to the JB squad... I think that actually works out to 1500pts dead on. More resilient, easier to hide, more anti-tank, simular anti-horde/anti-MEQ. It doesn't fix the assault potential; but it helps with flexibility, Dynamics, and it doesn hurt anything else (at least not much).

I don't like to suggest unit swaps, etc as a lot of it really comes down to playstyle, opponents, terrain, mission, etc... but for an All comers list I don't see the DR being that great unless the whole army list is modified to supprot them better. I hope that helps. 

CaHG

[Gutstikk]

Your list has been selected for inclusion in the Big List of Eldar Lists project! You will be receiving a score from me using the 5/5 system as outlined in the Big List of Eldar Lists in the stickies on this board. Following is the critique I have given:

Background: .5
A pretty good job of introducing your army, covering the basics. Could do with a bit more info on those games you played and why you think your success may have been due to the choice of mission, especially if they were missions you feel comfortable with rather than missions you don't tend to enjoy. Also good to know you aren't looking for the most tourney-effective list, meaning you can afford to trade power for enjoyment.

Composition: .5
The troops section is a bit lighter than I like to see, though not terrible. You have included a wide variety of units, and these units perform a good number of battlefield roles. You have a good mix of mobile and static power, though most of this comes through shooting selections the addition of doom may still swing some combats for you. I would prefer to see a second combat-oriented unit at this level, but with selective firing you can swing the balance - just be careful.

Utility: 1
Some units have been upgraded beyond their basic needs. The Avengers are quite expensive given their frailty, the farseer has the questionable guide/spirit stones [most of your units won't need this], the spiders have powerblades which would be better served if they were working in conjunction with a unit with few power-weapon attacks, and the banshees have warshout which is probably not necessary here. That's not bad, but it could be 70pts you save with these upgrades removed. Then with the loss of an aspect from a few of your aspect squads, you could have a second Avenger team with powerweapons of some kind, and the two working together would be more effective than guiding just one.

Flexibility: 1
The one place your list is likely to suffer is in the Heavy Armor department; with a reliance on S6 and just the falcon, farseer, and fire dragons capable of hurting units with AV13 or better, you could have trouble with IG armor, Monoliths, Tau mech gunlines and Landraiders. Other than that weak point, and a bit of suffering in the combat department, your list should be comfortable against a good variety of enemies.

Ingenuity: .5
A good general plan that lacks discussion of weakneeses inherent in the list and how these will be resolved as well as alternatives when the general plan cannot be enacted [table with very little terrain, table with too much terrain, enemy fielding 6+ tanks, etc]. Thinking about these areas a little further will lead to more success on the field of battle.

Total Score: 3.5, for a very good list
You have lots of options, though are a bit weak in some areas. Any area where you do not have at least 3 units that offer a good solution to, consider a priority threat and move against that early, as casualties will not inhibit your ability to deal with non-priority areas as much. Off to a very good start with Eldar, as your previous games have shown!

[Chaplain Swordwind]

Reserved for critique

As for a suggestion, an alternative to moc's Fire Prism would be a squad of 3 Warwalkers.  They would (in my opinion) benefit more from Guide than the DR's, and they can move & shoot.  3 with dual Scatter Lasers would be MORE effective against Marines than the DR's, for about the same cost, simply do to the higher volume of fire.  Additionally, they could advance with the Farseer, and in a pinch they could even participate in an assault.

I know they are a bit fragile, but they do have the benefit of further diluting the enemy's anti-tank fire, between themselves, the Falcon, and the Wave Serpent.

[tzeentchling]

I have actually thought about doing that, especially after using some in a large point game.  Losing the DR's and Warshout (which I never remember to use anyway) for a 3-pack of scatter walkers is definitely a good idea.  Now I just need to assemble them...

Edit @ Gutstikk: Thanks for the comments and rating!  I of course knew that this wasn't exactly a hard-hitting list, and there are a lot of extras that I wanted to play with. 

First point: The games I played against Marines were against a mech/assault heavy army in Escalation, and an all-infiltrate Marine army in alpha.  Hence, most of their army wasn't able to take advantage of the way they were designed to work.  For game 1, I had my support units ready and shooting from turn 1, and was able to isolate and destroy his two  dev squads within 3 turns - it didn't help that his army further came on the field piecemeal; by the time his reserves could move up to support there was nothing left to support!  For game 2, the Reapers deployed with a great field of fire on a board with mostly open terrain, though it was terraced - a big valley in the middle and rises here and there.  The reapers scared him enough that he didn't want to deploy his squads too far out with good lines of sight.  Plus, since he couldn't infiltrate, a lot of his weapons couldn't be used to their best effect.  One of the nice things about the army is that it's not too hampered by Escalation - I still start with a good amount on the board.  Don't have very much of an official fluffy background yet, but I'm working on it.

Point 2: True, the Troops section is a bit small, but again, I wanted to try a bunch of stuff out, and see how it all worked.  I may buff the bikes or take guardian squad, not sure yet.  I do think a second cc unit is probably one big problem, and I need to figure out how to fix it - perhaps the inclusion of an Avatar might help?  Either that or a foot-based warlock squad, or perhaps even a wraithlord with EML/Lance and sword.  The spiders, I'm finding, are a poor second unit for this purpose, even with powerblades.

Point 3: Why the guide/ss dislike?  Guide is effective on the Reapers and Avengers, and I've used it on both to great effect so far.  I am hesitant to remove it.  Warshout can go as I always forget to use it, but I like the buffed-out Avengers, frail as they are.  Bladestorm is a key power, and defend is quite nice as well, but I suppose I can drop the pw/ss.  But I'll think on your advice.

Point 4: Yeah, heavy armor is a problem, but luckily I don't face very much of it where I play - LRs are almost unheard of, and I refuse to play this list against the 3-mono list that others have.  I hope that I can outflank IG armor.  Tau mech could also be a problem, but again flank shots should help.  Maybe a lance or two would not be out of the question here.

Point 5: Low rating here because I haven't played enough with the army to really get a feel for how it would work in all the situations you've mentioned!  It's not clear exactly how to deal with situations where my models fail - I tend to trust that they can do their job together, lots of synergy.  I'd need more time to think about this area, and it's really the part that will come with more games under my belt.

[tzeentchling]

Alright, how about this for a new army.  I managed to trim the fat even more, made it a bit more lethal I hope, and put in a couple units that hopefully should help deal with some of the weaknesses.

Farseer, Runes of Warding, Doom, Singing Spear - 98
Dropped Guide, reluctantly, but there's less to guide in the new list.

Avatar - 15X
Put in to help buff the troops and provide another close combat unit, plus a bit more close-range anti armor.

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Anti armor, all I should need.  Need to be very dedicated and focused with the squad since there's no DBF exarch.

8 Banshees - 128
Wave Serpent, stones, vectored engines - 130
Trimmed the exarch and a few girls.  I may regret it, as the Executioner seems to do most of the work, but hopefully 8 should be enough.

10 Dire Avengers - 120
Note the continued lack of Exarchs!  I may miss Defend and Bladestorm, but this way they can fire every turn and they should still be reasonable in close combat for a turn or so.

10 Guardian Defenders, EML - 100
Boost the body count and add another anti-armor weapon, though perhaps not as reliable as one could wish.

5 Rangers - 95
It hurts to drop them down to Rangers from pathfinders, but points are points.

3 Jetbikes, shuriken cannon - 76
Again, quick-response squad, can contest quarter at the end, JSJ and take on side armor.

8 Warp Spiders, Exarch, dual Spinners - 193
I really want to keep them at 8.  It's a good number for shooting, a good number for casualties, and I haven't had too much trouble hiding them yet.  So far they've done the best of all my units.

Falcon, holofield, stones, shuriken cannon, shuriken cats - 165
Transport for the falcons.  Again, no upgrading, so firepower is enough.

Fire Prism, stones, holofield, shuriken cats - 160
The major addition, along with the Avatar.  Should add a bit of durability, and anti-armor or anti-horde if need be.  Now I just need to get the stupid prism turret bits.

So what do you all think now?  Better?  Did I weaken the squads too much in trying to put another squad in?

[Gutstikk]

Don't take it too hard; a 4.0 is an "excellent" list in my rating system, and people tend to take a hit where they lack explanation. As for the guide/spirit stones, it's quite a bit of extra points that isn't necessary, though it doesn't mean that it's not good... The utility section rewards minimum upgrade with maximum output, is all.

Rarely do people score 1 in the ingenuity section. Most people who present a list for critique never even think about how other players might look at their laundry list and misinterpret how it's played. A score of 1 is usually reserved for those who preempt the more experienced people who look at a tactic and say, "well that doesn't work against this..."

[Chaplain Swordwind]

Tzeentchling, do you want the original list rated, or the updated one?  I think for consistency I ought to rate the first, because that is what Gutstikk rated, but if you are still working on improving the list then clearly I should wait until you are finished with it.  Let me know how you want this to play out.

C.S.

[Gutstikk]

Go with the first! When people get referred to for a crit it's expected their list is already complete, and we need the consistency or complications arise! Besides, the first one's more than capable of getting critiqued!

[tzeentchling]

Agreed, the first is probably better for the rating system.  It was a fun list, one that a new-to-the-Eldar player might throw together, so it's probably more ideal for the critique and/or inclusion in the big list, if nothing else as an example.

Oh, and Gutstikk, I'm sorry if you felt I was taking offense at your points.  As you said, it's a pretty good rating overall, but I just wanted to flesh out my answers in response, give you an idea and help address some of the concerns you brought up.

[moc065]

Farseer, Runes of Warding, Doom, Singing Spear - 98
Dropped Guide, reluctantly, but there's less to guide in the new list.
He is certainly more trimmed and usable to the list. You will have to watch his positioning on the battle field though, and the addition of the Avatar makes an arguement for "Fortune & Stones" to be added to him.

Avatar - 15X
Put in to help buff the troops and provide another close combat unit, plus a bit more close-range anti armor.
He wil aslso give you a "Fearless" bubble for the Guardians to work within (if you so choose)... I personally am not a fan of "Wonder Boy" here; but I do see some merit it taken him.

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Anti armor, all I should need.  Need to be very dedicated and focused with the squad since there's no DBF exarch.
The lack of the Exarch can make for a very one-sided unit; but they can still work if their used well and timed well. I would not say to be too cautious, just that you really need to understand their potential very precisely.

8 Banshees - 128
Wave Serpent, stones, vectored engines - 130
Trimmed the exarch and a few girls.  I may regret it, as the Executioner seems to do most of the work, but hopefully 8 should be enough.
In this case, I woudl have scrapped another Banshee and kept the Executioner Exarch, or found the points from somewhere else. Seriously the Str++ of the Executioner is often the stary that breaks the enemy units back.

10 Dire Avengers - 120
Note the continued lack of Exarchs!  I may miss Defend and Bladestorm, but this way they can fire every turn and they should still be reasonable in close combat for a turn or so.
As footsloggers I actually prefer to run them naked and just get more of them. If used close to the Avatar, they are fearless as well, so they can become an integral part of a "Rolling Anvil"

10 Guardian Defenders, EML - 100
Boost the body count and add another anti-armor weapon, though perhaps not as reliable as one could wish.
Same comment as above with the DA... having a ML with 10 wounds can be a good thing, another tactic is to use them as True Defenders and only reveal one crewmember at a time in order to gain LOS on an enemy, they make for a nasty nusance and VP denial when used in this regard behind some cover.

5 Rangers - 95
It hurts to drop them down to Rangers from pathfinders, but points are points.
What !!!! put the pathfinder upgrade back on them... it is so worth it that I have to disagree with your choice on this one.

3 Jetbikes, shuriken cannon - 76
Again, quick-response squad, can contest quarter at the end, JSJ and take on side armor.
yup they certainly can; but they can also be 76 easy points for the enemy if yournot used to using them. This is one area you may actually just drop to get some points back, as the list is certainly not Mech, and it probably shouldn't be.

8 Warp Spiders, Exarch, dual Spinners - 193
I really want to keep them at 8.  It's a good number for shooting, a good number for casualties, and I haven't had too much trouble hiding them yet.  So far they've done the best of all my units.
I would still try and squeeze in Withdraw, as it does have some seriously good uses (assault GEQ on the side, do your damage and then use Withdraw to get a nicer Relocation move).

Falcon, holofield, stones, shuriken cannon, shuriken cats - 165
Transport for the fFre Dragons.  Again, no upgrading, so firepower is enough.
I thin you should re-consider VE's added here as you will need the FD's to get on site when required and if they ever get entangled, their toast.

Fire Prism, stones, holofield, shuriken cats - 160
The major addition, along with the Avatar.  Should add a bit of durability, and anti-armor or anti-horde if need be.  Now I just need to get the stupid prism turret bits.
Used at range this can be solid, I normally bring VE's as well; but only becuase I have the points.....

Now, seriously consider dummping the 3 pack JB's, the Pathfinder upgrade, Stones and Fortune, and maybe work a way to get the Banshee Exarch back into the list or adding those VE's to the Falcon.

CaHG

[tzeentchling]

Moc - I'm not that big a fan of fortune/stones if it's just for the Avatar.  I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.  But you mentioned that my list lacked another close-combat element, so I thought he would be the best way to address it - I don't want to put in shining spears yet, as they would be a bigger investment in points and army design and are possibly overpriced for 1500, Harlequins are an option but I don't have the models (and honestly, I really want to try running lists without them as they're used as a crutch far too much IMO), and Scorpions are the only other real assaulty unit and I don't think they'd perform as well against MCs and MEqs.

If I took anything out to put things back in, it would probably be the Guardians first before the Jetbikes - I really like the mobility that they lend to the army.
So that would be:
-Guardians: -100
+Banshee exarch, executioner: +22
+Pathfinder upgrade: +25
+Withdraw: +1X
+extra fire dragon: +1Y

which comes to 27 points left.  I can try to find 5 extra somewhere and boost the Banshees back up to 10, I can put VEs on the Falcon, drop the Singing spear, and have 10 points left over to do something with (likely powerblades on the Spider Exarch for wysiwyg), or I can upgrade to a DBF/CS Exarch on the Dragons and again have 10 points left over.  Leaning towards the last one, but I'd love to bring the Banshees back up to 10 somehow.

Edit: Okay, bit of a larger rehaul, taking into account a lot of the given advice:

Farseer, Runes of Warding, Doom, Singing Spear - 98
No change - points just aren't there for Fortune right now, and larger games would have Eldrad.

Avatar - 15X
No change, but if you can suggest a better unit in his place I would consider it.  Put in to help buff the troops and provide another close combat unit, plus a bit more close-range anti armor.

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Again no change, but I will play carefully with them.  Anti armor/MC/Nob squad.  Need to be very dedicated and focused with the squad since there's no DBF exarch.

10 Banshees, Exarch, executioner - 182
Wave Serpent, stones, vectored engines - 130
Back up to full strength.  They probably really do need to be this strong.

10 Dire Avengers - 120
10 Dire Avengers - 120
Two units help make up for losing Bladestorm, and should both be helped by Doom.

5 Pathfinders - 120
Moc, you're right, the points spent here are probably worth it against most opponents.

6 Warp Spiders, Exarch, dual spinners, powerblades (wysiwyg), Surprise Assault - 169
Dropped in number to afford other things.  No withdraw because a smaller unit likely will not live past the first couple of rounds of combat anyway, so changed to Surprise Assault to hopefully add another level of detail for my opponents to worry about.

Falcon, holofield, stones, shuriken cannon, shuriken cats - 165
No change.  Larger games will see it getting VE, but for now they're a luxury.

Fire Prism, stones, holofield, shuriken cats - 160
Same as the falcon.

Total 1499.  Should have a nice balance between speedy units and faster units, with some good grav tanks and a heavier focus on medium-close range shooting.  Still a small, elite army - practically Biel Tan at this point, but it was that from the beginning.

[Halfpast_Yellow]

5 Rangers - 95
It hurts to drop them down to Rangers from pathfinders, but points are points.
What !!!! put the pathfinder upgrade back on them... it is so worth it that I have to disagree with your choice on this one.

 

Better off using Rangers and no powerblades for the WS Exarch (WYSIWYG is irrelevant) and getting a FD Exarch w Flamer/Crackshot IMO.

[tzeentchling]

Well, I could keep them as Pathfinders, keep the power blades, and drop two Banshees.  That would give me enough to add in the DBF/CS Exarch for the Dragons.  Worth it?

[Halfpast_Yellow]

Nooo that would be quite a bad move. Banshees need almost nothing less than a full unit, those two Banshees are critical.

2 Banshees > FD Exarch > Pathfinder upgrade + powerblades.

[Talion]

I always field 7 banshees and an exarch with executioner and they perform fine.If you start loosing them you feel it right away though which would not be the case should you field a full squad.
However,anything less then 8 shees exarch included,is just not gonna work as intended.6 shees is a falcon unit and they work only vs very small squads preferably doomed.
All in all,8 is a nice number.I recomend it.Though the exarch here is really needed.