Topic: Kan wall question

[OfStatic]

So I have been playing eldar on and off for a few years now and was thinking of starting a new army. I wanted an army that played differently from the space elves. So I figured orks would be a great army to choose. After reading through the boards I decided I really am a fan of the killa kan wall lists. I like the models (a fan of walkers in general) and I also like how it will play much differently than my mechdar.

My real concern is about how good a kan wall list would actually be against the small meta I usually play in. My two most common adversaries are dark eldar with tons of lances and blasters, and guard with 6-7 chimeras with melta spam vet squads, some vendettas and a few leman Russ tanks.

Would a killer kan list get annihilated by lists like these? I don't want to end up wasting my time and money on a list that always gets decimated by my buddies lists.

Thanks

[SKEETERGOD]

Welcome to the green side

While you may be worried about your kans getting devastated your boys will be making it into combat because your kans get devestated.

Take a big mek (or 2) with a Kustom Force Field (KFF) that will give your kans a 4+ cover save and unless the dice gods hate you you will still have kans left after their shooting phase. Meanwhile your 3 or 4 squads of 30 boys will be accross the board and krumpin. I don't care how elite the enemy unit, nothing survives an attack by a full squad of 30 orks.

So your kans eat all the shooting, and your boys do all the krumping.

Let them take las cannon spam, it can only kill one ork, you will still have 29 more. Let the DE take dark lances, it can only kill one boy, and you will still have 29 more. (not to mention the other squads will still be at full strength)

So you can see the kan wall is a multi choice build, a wall of kans and another wall of boys. If they concentrate on killing your kans your boys get accross unmolested and teach the enemy what orks can do. You could single handedly change the meta of your gaming group as they will have to adapt to more balanced lists to handle the kan wall.

Good hunting.

[incredibleskulk]

Take a big mek (or 2) with a Kustom Force Field (KFF) that will give your kans a 4+ cover save and unless the dice gods hate you you will still have kans left after their shooting phase. Meanwhile your 3 or 4 squads of 30 boys will be accross the board and krumpin. I don't care how elite the enemy unit, nothing survives an attack by a full squad of 30 orks.

There is one unit i have gone against that actually took two full on 30 boy strong charges, and wiped me clean twice...the dreaded space wolves thunder cavalry. he had a wolf lord with saga of the warrior born, which is I6 S6 power weapon, all unsaved wounds add an additional attack, sky is the limit...the lord had about 20 attacks after the two charges, then i decided, hey lets not go over there, lets shoot them instead.

that wolf lord is absolutely brutal man, its better than any flamer, and can wipe out entire marine units.

[angel of death 007]

Take a big mek (or 2) with a Kustom Force Field (KFF) that will give your kans a 4+ cover save and unless the dice gods hate you you will still have kans left after their shooting phase. Meanwhile your 3 or 4 squads of 30 boys will be accross the board and krumpin. I don't care how elite the enemy unit, nothing survives an attack by a full squad of 30 orks.

There is one unit i have gone against that actually took two full on 30 boy strong charges, and wiped me clean twice...the dreaded space wolves thunder cavalry. he had a wolf lord with saga of the warrior born, which is I6 S6 power weapon, all unsaved wounds add an additional attack, sky is the limit...the lord had about 20 attacks after the two charges, then i decided, hey lets not go over there, lets shoot them instead.

that wolf lord is absolutely brutal man, its better than any flamer, and can wipe out entire marine units.

Oh I beg to differ, Space puppies and their bad dogs only look nasty.  I went up against Cannis, a wolf lord, and a crap ton of thunder calvary with a kan wall list.

Here:
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=205865.0

Thunderwolves bit off more than they could chew when they engage kans and dreads.  And the wolf lord made the mistake of charging a squad of 30 boys.

So I have been playing eldar on and off for a few years now and was thinking of starting a new army.

My real concern is about how good a kan wall list would actually be against the small meta I usually play in. My two most common adversaries are dark eldar with tons of lances and blasters, and guard with 6-7 chimeras with melta spam vet squads, some vendettas and a few leman Russ tanks.

Would a killer kan list get annihilated by lists like these? I don't want to end up wasting my time and money on a list that always gets decimated by my buddies lists.

Wow you sound like me.  I went from Eldar to Orks.  Though not mech eldar I played a hybrid list. 

I see both offering their own set of problems.  Orks aren't too effective at dealing with armor at range but lucky for you they are melta vets which means they got to get in nasty close to hurt you.  Add to the effect that if you keep a KFF mek nearby it will be great.  3 melta shots vs your kan squad at close range with a save.  I am liking my odds here.  Not to mention if they go for the kill shot or not are now in assault range of your dread or kans.  That dread will eat a chimera and probably kill half the squad or more in the blast when it blows. 

Vendettas are a different animal.  I would be most worried about the russes and thier pie plates of death.  Anything stupid enough to get into assault range of a kan squad or a dread will learn that is a HUGE mistake.  I would say mech guard would be challenging at best no where near impossible.

I play a kan wall list and I love it.   I have not been up against dark eldar yet but I really dont see it as all that.  The lance spam will just be putting shots at your dreads/ kans so no big deal there as if you are smart you keep them in KFF range. 

Their wyches and that will get first strike against our boyz but that really isn't a concern either because almost everything goes before us in CC.  The wyches won't be able to have the number advantage and will have a hard time wounding with their mediocre str.  That return blow from a full squad or next to it will wipe an unsupported dark eldar assault squad fill in as you fancy (wracks, wyches, incubi) 

Everything fast really doesn't matter to a kan wall list as you are continually moving (or atleast should be) So if your opponent wants to close the gap sooner via raiders, chimeras, or what have you let them.  That is where you want to be anyway. 

A kan wall list plays so much different than any list I have played.  Supported right and with a few surprises you can throw an opponent off easily because they think oh here is a stagnent foot army.  And it is more like here comes a mountain let them throw stuff at it and watch it get buried. 

My biggest fear is marching across the field and getting hammered with ordinance, especially the kind that guard has that removes cover save (that would be more nasty than chimera vet spam).

[MagicJuggler]

That's an imbalanced Space Wolf list. No wonder you won. Aside from the Razorbacks, he has...no shooting. At all. Especially since he's placing a Living Lightning Runepriest in a transport without Fire Points. Having *no* Long Fangs at 2000 points really does a lot to undermine the credibility of that Wolf List. 

I would say Kan Walls work best at about 1750-ish points, as it's the sweet spot where you can properly support them with firepower, yet the opponent has difficulty bringing Dual Land Raiders...at 2000 points, I'd only use Kans as part of a larger army. Meganobz are useful for this type of list, as "extra Kans" so to speak. Since you're probably giving Rokkits to the Kanz, you'll be running not too frequently, so the MANz can actually keep up. You're mostly safe against armies with lots of low-shot AT options (Razorspam) but start to die fast when the opponent brings lots of multi-mid strength options (as an example, the IG staple of several batteries of dual Hydra Autocannons can tear into Kanz, KFF or no; Hive Guard are another threatening unit of course).

[angel of death 007]

That's an imbalanced Space Wolf list. No wonder you won. Aside from the Razorbacks, he has...no shooting. At all. Especially since he's placing a Living Lightning Runepriest in a transport without Fire Points. Having *no* Long Fangs at 2000 points really does a lot to undermine the credibility of that Wolf List. 

I would say Kan Walls work best at about 1750-ish points, as it's the sweet spot where you can properly support them with firepower, yet the opponent has difficulty bringing Dual Land Raiders...at 2000 points, I'd only use Kans as part of a larger army. Meganobz are useful for this type of list, as "extra Kans" so to speak. Since you're probably giving Rokkits to the Kanz, you'll be running not too frequently, so the MANz can actually keep up. You're mostly safe against armies with lots of low-shot AT options (Razorspam) but start to die fast when the opponent brings lots of multi-mid strength options (as an example, the IG staple of several batteries of dual Hydra Autocannons can tear into Kanz, KFF or no; Hive Guard are another threatening unit of course).

Not really sure how long fangs would fit into his list considering how fast the rest of the army moves.  They would be the only stagnent aspect of the whole army.  Which snikrot when he came on would eat up either that or just harrass them with the green baron.  Everything was either calvary or mounted in his army.  The rune priest deployed out of the razorback kinda early. 

I like playing my kan list at 1850.  At 2000 it does give your opponent more options.  I also wasn't used to playing at that point level and brought tank bustas which did absolutely nothing for my army. 

I like using a couple of squads of kans and  two dreads.  This adds for a little more target saturation.  MANZ however need to be put with a boss with a bosspole or something to keep them in line, not to mention they have no inv. save so are not ideal for taking on CC oriented units. 

Hydras I will agree are nasty and I field a squad of two.  But honestly those colossal's?  are really nasty negating cover saves.  That can do a number on the boys.   The hydras work good vs kans to a degree but against Dread's they don't do as much.  I don't see too many guard armies with more than 1 squad of hydras unless someone crafts their list to their opponents. 

MANZ would be a great add to the Mad dok with his special ablities he grants would make the MANZ very hard to deal with plus you could throw cybork on them.  Nice to have terminators that are fearless and have FNP. 

[MagicJuggler]

The reason for Fangs is the same one takes Lootas for Ork lists: fire support. Normally, my main trick for dealing with Thunderwolves (or Daemons, or Raider Marines, or any such assault list is to determine threat vectors, determine which assault element to shoot, which to block off with Warbuggy, etc.); Fangs support the list by cracking open transports, removing Loota support (as let's be honest, if your Lootas have been assaulted, you've probably lost already), etc.

MANz really don't need
the Bosspole or Grotsnik (though if you're using Snikrot, *giggle*), the Invul save means little when you're probably already with cover from the Kans (meaning you can't be Tankshocked save by a desperate Eldar player, and low Leadership means little as the firepower required to reliably drop MANz isn't going to your Kanz. Usually, clever precharge movement has fists going onto another mob, or Ork shooting has defisted a unit...the elephant in the room of course is regular Marine Assault Terminators, but even then it's safe to assume the Marines brought Nullzone...in short, if willing to live with less Loota slots or one less KFF, Meganobz are *very* complementary to a Kanwall.

PS: Hydras are still generally efficient performers regardless of target (save Land Raiders that is), and for Guard lists, 6 Hydras/3 Vendettas isn't entirely unknown. Watch out!

[SKEETERGOD]

I have a buddy who runs a kan wall and he just SPANKED the blood angels in a 2k game. It was great fun to watch, since I was playing my own game I could only check it out during my opponents movement phase but the wall was doing great.

He has 2 KFF meks, 2 dreads, 9 kans, 3 or 4 mobs of 30 boys, snickrot and his boys with 2 flamers, and I think he may have had 2 or 3 deff coptas not sure if they were green baron or not. I am not sure of the BA build, but I know it had a large death company and 5 dreads in it, as well as 3 of those burna preds too.

One scene was great the sanguin guard charged into a mob of 30, I turned back to my game and when I turned around again the big sworded marines were gone and there were still 10 orks left.

Another cool scene was his death company got tangled with a squad of 3 kans, and had nothing to hurt it, so were stuck in combat with the kans to be killed off a few at a time.

I was busy with my speed freaks getting chewed up by IG so I didn't get to watch it all, however the orks won in 4 1/2 turns by massacre. The only thing the BA had left were 5 death company still stuck in combat with 3 kans.

So the kan wall build is good against BA at least, I have seen it with my own 4 eyes

[angel of death 007]

The reason for Fangs is the same one takes Lootas for Ork lists: fire support. Normally, my main trick for dealing with Thunderwolves (or Daemons, or Raider Marines, or any such assault list is to determine threat vectors, determine which assault element to shoot, which to block off with Warbuggy, etc.); Fangs support the list by cracking open transports, removing Loota support (as let's be honest, if your Lootas have been assaulted, you've probably lost already), etc.

MANz really don't need
the Bosspole or Grotsnik (though if you're using Snikrot, *giggle*), the Invul save means little when you're probably already with cover from the Kans (meaning you can't be Tankshocked save by a desperate Eldar player, and low Leadership means little as the firepower required to reliably drop MANz isn't going to your Kanz. Usually, clever precharge movement has fists going onto another mob, or Ork shooting has defisted a unit...the elephant in the room of course is regular Marine Assault Terminators, but even then it's safe to assume the Marines brought Nullzone...in short, if willing to live with less Loota slots or one less KFF, Meganobz are *very* complementary to a Kanwall.

PS: Hydras are still generally efficient performers regardless of target (save Land Raiders that is), and for Guard lists, 6 Hydras/3 Vendettas isn't entirely unknown. Watch out!

I can see the long fangs being there for fire support but you would have to give them some support or accept the fact that they are a sacrificial unit.  Since they don't count as scoring then putting them on a home base objective by themselves really isn't a great idea either.  I would think that a dread of some kind or even something more mobile would be a better option, predator, dread loaded with long range weapons.

I dunno what to think about MANZ.  I really don't like the idea that they don't have an inv save.  Not to mention that they only count as scoring with a warboss.  Add into this the fact that if you take a warboss in a kan wall list you have only 1 KFF mek which needs to support atleast 2 squads of kans, a dread or two and a squad or two of boys I dunno my space is already thin. 

What is your ideal MANZ squad if they are on foot?    I just don't see them being a better option then a dread.  Everything the MANZ can do a dread can do as well not to mention they don't have to worry about PW's or moral checks.  Considering you will already have a Big mek or two they count as troops choice so aren't taking away from your heavy slots.  Not totally convinced due to their cost vs effectiveness but would like to hear how they would work.  I definately get the fact that they are taking away Str 8+ weapon fire which is a good thing. 

On the hydra side note, I do think in a balanced or competative list that it is very rare to see 6 hydras (3 squads of two) on the field due to the demand on the Heavy slots and the high availabilty of mid str weapons that guard have (chimeras, sentinals, autocannons in troops or hvy weapon teams) these all provide some very nice options for mid str weapons without losing your options for Russ varients or ordinance.  With how easy it is to obtain the mid str weapons and spam them in different FOC positions I don't see it very benefitual to deny yourself Russ armor or ordinance blast support considering how many benefits either or both grant a guard army.  Not to mention that 6 hydras are a crap ton of money to purchase which I know at my LGS I would never see.  I field one squad of two which impresses most players including other guard players at our LGS.  Maybe once GW makes their own they will be more common but more than one squad I dunno. 

I am still toying with having two KFF big meks but I still try to keep my wall all within the reach on one.  Basically it helps if you need to divide your army but it totally kills all your HQ slots on a support role. 

[OD from TV]

Welcome to the Orks OfStatic.  You aren't the first (and you won't be the last) of the Eldar players going green, I myself being yet another (I think there are 5 or so which took this path that are current members of the WotW).  I think it has something to do with the Orks and Eldar (Eldar of both major sects mind you) are such dynamic opposites, both in playstyle and the looks of the models.  Additionally fluff-wise the Eldar are a 'dying race' which overall as a relatively constant population or slightly negative population growth, while the Orks are always growing in numbers due to their spore based breeding possibility that cannot be stopped (well except by some relatively new DE process of infecting the Orks' spores, but that's another topic all together).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned as of yet (and why Not?) is the possibility of the Ork Dread Mob core rules present in Imperial Armor 8.  Some tourneys don't allow the use of IA books, but the majority I've been around do.  And as for friendly games, I'm fairly sure they'll allow it as well.  The Dread Mob rules are very much like your standard Kan Wall type of army using the conventional codex, with a few exceptions.

1. KillaKans are Fast Attack and can be in squads up to 5
2. Deff Dreads are standard troops and can be fielded in squads up to 3
3. No Nobz in the list of any kind
4. Lots of strange new units like Grot Tanks, Warkoptas, MekaDreads, and Liftawagons (just to name a few).

Peace
~OD

[Mad Dok Brown]

Welcome to the Orks OfStatic.  You aren't the first (and you won't be the last) of the Eldar players going green, I myself being yet another (I think there are 5 or so which took this path that are current members of the WotW).  I think it has something to do with the Orks and Eldar (Eldar of both major sects mind you) are such dynamic opposites, both in playstyle and the looks of the models.  Additionally fluff-wise the Eldar are a 'dying race' which overall as a relatively constant population or slightly negative population growth, while the Orks are always growing in numbers due to their spore based breeding possibility that cannot be stopped (well except by some relatively new DE process of infecting the Orks' spores, but that's another topic all together).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned as of yet (and why Not?) is the possibility of the Ork Dread Mob core rules present in Imperial Armor 8.  Some tourneys don't allow the use of IA books, but the majority I've been around do.  And as for friendly games, I'm fairly sure they'll allow it as well.  The Dread Mob rules are very much like your standard Kan Wall type of army using the conventional codex, with a few exceptions.

1. KillaKans are Fast Attack and can be in squads up to 5
2. Deff Dreads are standard troops and can be fielded in squads up to 3
3. No Nobz in the list of any kind
4. Lots of strange new units like Grot Tanks, Warkoptas, MekaDreads, and Liftawagons (just to name a few).

Peace
~OD

Yet another pointy-eared convert. The Dread Mob list is a great list, the subtle changes to it make it harder to do a Kan Wall/Green Tide army though. The Spanna Boyz, regular troops boyz, only go up to 20 man and cant take a Nob; this kills any chance you had of packing a Power Klaw for protection. OD, dont forget the Cybork Slashas, they have nob stats and come with a Painboy, but are a bit pricey for what you get, no mega armour though. Oh and nothing says I win like a Mega Dread unleashing hell with his killkannon while leading your kan army. But the upsides, as mentioned, turn your tide into a hard hitting elite army.

[angel of death 007]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned as of yet (and why Not?) is the possibility of the Ork Dread Mob core rules present in Imperial Armor 8.  Some tourneys don't allow the use of IA books, but the majority I've been around do.  And as for friendly games, I'm fairly sure they'll allow it as well.  The Dread Mob rules are very much like your standard Kan Wall type of army using the conventional codex, with a few exceptions.

1. KillaKans are Fast Attack and can be in squads up to 5
2. Deff Dreads are standard troops and can be fielded in squads up to 3
3. No Nobz in the list of any kind
4. Lots of strange new units like Grot Tanks, Warkoptas, MekaDreads, and Liftawagons (just to name a few).

IA 8 wouldn't be allowed at our LGS.  They used to allow one FW model with other rules as long as it had no structure points, void shields, or was over 250 points.  So a Mega Dread would have worked but they cut that out as well. 

I never got any of the IA books but I did the Apocalypse and well I can't field my Mega dread in tournies but I will field him in an Apocalypse game. 

The dread mob in the Apocalypse formation is pretty solid.  I just got the parts to build my KFF dread so it will be nasty.