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Author Topic: Doom Scythe or 2x Annihilation Barges?  (Read 3329 times)

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Offline Antaeus

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Doom Scythe or 2x Annihilation Barges?
« on: October 5, 2013, 03:06:10 AM »
Another quandary coming at you from Antaeus, the Lord of Uncertainty; the Great Endless-List-Tweaker! So. Which unit selection, under what conditions (or "what other units do they work well with) and why? Also would you feel comfortable fielding just one, or would you absolutely go for two or more?
« Last Edit: October 5, 2013, 03:08:43 AM by Antaeus »
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Offline Foxfire

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Re: Doom Scythe or 2x Annihilation Barges?
« Reply #1 on: October 5, 2013, 07:11:31 AM »
EDIT-->Whoops!  Misread the question, carry on to GBT's post~


I think that this topic could be merged with your other thread, but I'll let a moderator decide that.  As for your question, I would personally go with the Nightscythe because I've wanted to field an all-Immortal army since forever and now that it's legal, I've converted an inordinate amount of Warriors into Immortals, leaving little room for a Ghost Ark.  However, as mentioned in your other threads, both are good for different things.

Obviously Ghost Arks are good for supporting Warrior blobs and--in general--good for helping you claim the middle of the board.  They convert a weak troop choice into something that can often do more than hold its own, and can, I believe, support more than just the Warriors it's carrying given its reanimation special rule.  Also, unlike the Nightscythe, the Ark and its crew can claim an objective with a very survivable vehicle, which is nothing to sneeze at.

The Nightscythe provides better fire support (sort of...more versatile though the Ark is better against light infantry), and I would say is most useful in claiming the edges of the board, claiming objectives your central formation would not reach otherwise.  That said, it drops off units with such pin-point accuracy that it is also useful in helping to overwhelm the enemy in the board's center.  Not to mention it can carry a wider variety of troops.

In general, I would consider taking one Ghost Ark since I only have 15 Warriors anymore, but even if I had more passengers for them I doubt I'd field more than two, given how many other options the vehicle is competing with.  As for Nightscythes, they are very spammable and the air superiority is--theoretically--very nice to have.  I think that Nighscythes scale up relatively well and you could justify taking anywhere between one and six.  Personally though, I like seeing my nice metal soldiers with their feet on the ground, and I have much more experience playing them that way.  I'm still toying with the idea of picking up a Nightscythe to compliment the Annihilation Barge/Barges in anti-air and to grant me a far-flung objective from time to time, but I don't think I'll ever do the full-on transport fleet.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2013, 09:44:01 AM by Foxfire »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Doom Scythe or 2x Annihilation Barges?
« Reply #2 on: October 5, 2013, 09:29:17 AM »
Pssst! Foxfire! He's asking about Doom Scythes and Annihilation Barges... the Heavy Support options. ;)


Annihilation Barges are dirt cheap for how effective and tough they are. Doom Scythes, on the other hand, are 1.75 times more expensive as a Night Scythe, lose their transport capacity, and only gain a Death Ray.

Now, the Death Ray is handy if you want to go hunting vehicles. Very handy. It's one of the few Necron weapons that I'd call a dedicated anti-tank weapon. If you can tag a couple of nearby vehicles with the same shot, it's very powerful. However, the units you'd want to be going after with the Death Ray aren't likely to be seriously damaged by the Tesla Destructor. [AV 13+, or Elite MEQ / TEQ units] In my opinion, the Doom Scythe is appropriately priced for a flyer... on the basis that most other flyers are underpriced in my eyes.

On the other hand, AB's are horrendously underpoints, and you can build a standing Lord out of the spare parts, which makes it an excellent financial value, on top of it being a fantastic points value.

From an army wide strategy perspective, a Doom Scythe might work towards target saturation in a flying circus army, and it can provide dedicated AT if your list lacks it. Otherwise, you could have a Night Scythe with a cheap squad inside.

The incredible value of an AB would typically win out in my book. If you're running Scarabs, and you find you're able to hit home with them, the high rate of mid strength firepower becomes "dedicated AT" against the lowered AV's you'd run into. When a Land Raider is down to Rhino-level armour, Tesla Destructors are better than Lascannons. :)

Offline Foxfire

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Re: Doom Scythe or 2x Annihilation Barges?
« Reply #3 on: October 5, 2013, 09:42:46 AM »
Wow.  Serves me right o_O  Sorry guys, had surgery yesterday and I'm still loopy on pain pills.  Alas, there's little to keep me entertained in this state of convalescence besides web surfing.

So, sorry about that!  In general, when it comes to the unit choices you actually asked about, I am in agreement with GBT.  The Annihilation Barge is absurdly cheap for what it provides, making it useful at all levels of play (but I think it especially wins out in the lower-point games).  The Doomscythe is hindered by the fact that it is in direct financial competition with the Nightscythe, ie they come in the same box and building one means you don't get the other.  The Deathray, while pleasingly retro and quite nasty against several enemies you would normally struggle with (Terminators, high-AV vehicles, monstrous creatures), does not make up for the objective-grabbing abilities of the Nightscythe, nor does it synergize with the Necrons' army-wide short range the way our pinpoint transport does.

I think that in a tesla-heavy list there could be room for the Doomscythe, but as long as you're packing sufficient gauss, transportation for your gauss gunners (to get them within range of enemy tanks) and a few units that are good at wrecking vehicles in CC (scarabs/wraiths/destroyer lords), it's more a fun army choice instead of a cost-effective one.  That said, I might take one Doomscythe maximum since it is in competition with much better buys, and Annihilation Barges are so good at what they do and so versatile that I think it wise to take two.  At any rate, the Barge is cheaper than the Scythe, so I'm looking forward to picking up a second one for that reason alone.

Offline Antaeus

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Re: Doom Scythe or 2x Annihilation Barges?
« Reply #4 on: October 5, 2013, 11:14:08 PM »
I'm a big fan of the Doom Scythe however I have a hard time coming up with more than a few reasons that aren't completely biased. What I'm looking for is to make my list balanced.

With that in mind, I start by listing why I think I should have one, then outline my worries about it. But the big comment actually comes from another (famed?) player from another forum: user "jy2", who I'll quote. He has me convinced partially based on his reputation, partially based on his opinion -- so please, don't feel shy to voice your honest opinion. Like I said: "What I'm looking for is to make my list balanced."

At the end of this thread (i.e., after it has died down), I will post a new thread about the list I'm working on, and provide a link to it, so that future users can see the context in which I'm considering the issue of whether to include either a Doom Scythe or two Annihilation Barges, so they can better learn from the thread and understand how the arguments (pros and cons) relate to the game.

If it's any motivation for you, I've been playing 40k on and off for about a decade now, and I've never won more than a handful of games -- until this summer, when I started to win big! What changed is that I moved to a much larger city, and started to play with new friends who (1) play to win and (2) want to help me improve. So yeah, building competitive, balanced lists (no matter how cheesy) is all part of the culture for me now :)

My reasons for selecting a Doom Scythe:
- After taking in a lot of comments on forums (including this one) and from my friends, I've been modifying my list. I think the Doom Scythe is good for my list because it otherwise lacks solid anti-TEQ capabilities. It does have Wraiths and a Doomsday Ark, but the former is charging forward and therefore incapable of reacting (or in other words: backtracking across the battlefield) quickly enough once engaged in CC  (I'm thinking here about highly dynamic TEQ units, especially those that can surprise you by deep striking), and the latter is immobile at the rear of the board and lacks mobility. What the Doom Scythe offers is the potential to place anti-TEQ firepower anywhere, at almost any time (I have a comms relay in my list).

- Great for destroying AV14, and/or multiple vehicles if they're close enough

- Provides better anti-air than two Annihilation Barges

My worries:
- Other than my Doomsday Ark and Scarab swarms, I fear that my current list lacks anti-hoard  firepower (ork mobs, Tyranid troop swarms, etc)

- While the Doom Scythe can come in to replace the Doomsday Ark if/after it's been taken out ("replace" it for certain things, but perhaps not for everything), I fear that one Doom Scythe isn't enough by itself, as it might become a massive target priority (or simply downed too easily), before it can do the anti-TEQ and anti-AV14 for which it was chosen. That being said, this danger is counter-balanced by the fact that I have two to three other flyers (Night Scythes) in my list, as well as a fair understanding of some pretty solid/helpful flyer and anti-flyer tactics

Finally the quote.
This is a long one, but the situation described fits my list perfectly. Essentially: my only "big scary unit" aside from the Doomsday Ark, would indeed be a Doom Scythe (that being said, everything I field is still extremely dangerous).

Quote
Here is my take between the doom scythe and the annihilation barges.

Doom scythes are considered by most armies and opponents to be a huge target priority, probably more so than any other unit in the necron dex, including command barges and wraiths. They are target numero uno (#1) and thus need other high priority targets in the army to help make them more survivable. That is why they go better with CCB's, scarabs and wraiths, who are very fast and dangerous units as well. Otherwise, all guns will point towards them in order to try to take them down. In other lists that are lacking such fast and dangerous units, they simply won't survive long enough in most cases. That is why they work in lists such as Lukus' scythe-spam or my own MTO list.

AB's are almost the complete opposite of doom scythes. They are slow but much more durable. Not really because of their AV13, but more because they are not viewed as a high priority threat compared to some of the other necron units. So over the long run, they will produce more consistent and more reliable results than doom scythes. I myself prefer AB's instead in my pure wraithwing build (w/18 wraiths) for their rather steady output. However, the drawback of AB's in a scythe-spam list is that because they are perceived to be a lower priority threat, that means your opponents are going to shoot down your night scythes instead (after taking out your CCB's), killing both your firepower and your mobility. Ideally, in a scythe-spam list, you want units to "take the heat off" of your scythes instead, not put it on them. So that is the main drawback of AB's in a scythe-spam list. They make target priority much easier for your opponent.

As for wraiths, you really have to try them a few times to appreciate how much they can do for the necron army. They are quite survivable against small arms fire and any insta-killing AT used on them means your tanks will survive longer. They are a great utility unit that is both a dangerous threat to most enemies with their speed and killing power as well as a protector of your own forces with their resiliency and counter-assault.

For doom scythes, I would not use more than 2 for balance reasons. If they had the resiliency of some of the other necron units (i.e. quantum shielding), then they would an ok investment. But doom scythes are rather expensive and will normally go down fast. Thus, you need other units in the army that can handle the offense once they do. It is a matter of "too many eggs in 1 basket", at least for me, and too many doom scythes in the army actually unbalances it.
~Credit to user "JY2"

Conclusion: My 2000 Point Necron Balanced List
« Last Edit: October 8, 2013, 09:26:10 PM by Antaeus »
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