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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2009, 02:09:54 PM »
No, we cant. Not resonable objective people anyway. I understand you feel strongly about racism but that is your opinion and, since you claim to like free speech, it seems odd that you wish to deny other people there opinion.

Ignoring someone is not denying them their opinion. When someone is standing on a street corner proclaiming their belief in the end of the world, my walking past them without acknowledgement is not denying them their moment street theatre. It's counter productive to make a big deal of something you dislike. People try and have books/films banned as their content is somehow personally abhorant. The effect of this is to make said books/movie even more popular than they would have been before due to the attention.

Same with extreme political views and parties. Ignoring them is often far more effective than focusing even more attention upon them. People can still spout what ever nonsense takes their fancy yet there is no requirement that anyone else pay the slightest bit of attention towards them.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2009, 03:28:53 PM »
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I like free speech more than I like ice cream

This would make sence wether you like ice cream or not. Im guessing you like it in which case you could say "I like ice cream but i like free speech more". So this shows that you do like ice cream but also shows that there must be things that you dislike in order for "like" to have any meaning.

So liking race A does not mean you automatically dislike race B. You might like race A and B but if the only other race is race C then you have a relative dislike for race C.

Why am I having to explain how relative terms like these are used? Im in no way qualified.

Congratulations, you are making my argument for me. That is exactly what I have been saying for the last few posts. Your argument is shifting again. Stop it?

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You're moving the goalposts again. You've gone from "British people are racist" to "racist, biased towards nationalism, it's all the same thing". Are you saying you agree that it's not racist, which is really all I was gunning for?

"british people are racist" is not an acurate summary of what I have been saying. That would make me racist. If racism is not the right word to discribe discriminating against someone because of their nationality then provide me with the correct term and I will congratulate you on your ability to correct my Eniglish. If someone discriminates against a person because they are not british I would probably label them a racist. Is this wrong? If so is there a significant difference? Ask a BNP supporter "do you dislike foreigner X because of his race or his nationality?" will they see a significant difference? Semantics aside both seem relavent to the thread.

I can accurately correct your English easily, but it has no bearing on this topic. Nationalism is the distaff-counterpart to what you're describing, as you're referring to negatively focus on people of other nationalities while nationalism positively focuses on people of ones' own nationality. Is there a difference besides a raw semantic one between these two terms? Yes. For starters, you didn't know the word to describe nationality discrimination; it's not anywhere near as well-known a concept. Racism is an incredibly charged word that frankly I think should be used with more care than you have been.

Yes, it's wrong to say that someone who discriminates against non-British people is racist based on that. I have no doubt that the BNP are racist at least in part, but more evidence than that is needed.

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can all agree that anyone who advocates in favour of it [racism] should be ignored and possibly given a sweetie containing some happy pills?

No, we cant. Not resonable objective people anyway. I understand you feel strongly about racism but that is your opinion and, since you claim to like free speech, it seems odd that you wish to deny other people there opinion.

As Rummy has pointed out, at no point have I said the BNP or their voters shouldn't be allowed to make their thoughts known. I just don't think we should have to listen to them in the name of being inclusive.

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wrong by our present moral standards

Morality varies between different people. Nobodies morality is any more correct than anyone elses. The only way to argue that one morality is correct is to say that God said so, and evidence to support such arguments are impossible to find. Morality is a product of our evolution and enables us to function together as a group. It is NOT something which can be proven correct by objective, logical reasoning. Essentially its just crap we make up.

Understood. Except that morality, as a social construct, is subject to social consent, which means that things which society as a whole abhors can reasonably be considered morally unacceptable at that point in time and space. With a few crazy exceptions, society today, in the UK, considers most of the things the BNP advocates to be unacceptable.

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And you need to stop going "democratic" or "undemocratic" in lieu of making actual arguments. Why is being democratic a good thing? Why is being undemocratic a bad one? Just saying "it's not democratic" isn't much of an argument.

Im not making any judgments about good and bad here, I try not to soil myself too much with moral opinion. I was asuming that being democratic was a good thing to you. If its not then Im not going to try to justify democracy with a moral argument, you can find that in

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our present moral standards

I'm not saying democracy's not a good thing, but I'm a politics student who recently wrote over 2000 words on the subject, a rather more strenuous debate than we've had here. I dislike people using "democratic" as a buzzword that is supposed to say "well this thing must be good, it's democratic". Not good enough.
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Offline A.CHAP2

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2009, 07:48:43 PM »
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I can accurately correct your English


Congratulations and thanks.

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you're referring to negatively focus on people of other nationalities while nationalism positively focuses on people of ones' own nationality

Interesting, is there an appropriate term then? Anyone know?

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As Rummy has pointed out, at no point have I said the BNP or their voters shouldn't be allowed to make their thoughts known.

Thats fair enough then, I thought that you had been arguing that their thoughts should not be given representation.(thats a response to Bacon to)

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Understood. Except that morality, as a social construct, is subject to social consent, which means that things which society as a whole abhors can reasonably be considered morally unacceptable at that point in time and space. With a few crazy exceptions, society today, in the UK, considers most of the things the BNP advocates to be unacceptable.

By "society as a whole" I assume you mean the majority of society and you suggest that the moral view of this majority should be considered the ultimate morality by virtue of its popularity?

You say you understood but my point was that there is no credible argument for one morality over another.

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morally unacceptable at that point in time and space.

Things are only morally unacceptable inside our minds not at any point in time and space. Our morality is irrelavent to the rest of existance.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2009, 08:19:22 PM »
Thats fair enough then, I thought that you had been arguing that their thoughts should not be given representation.(thats a response to Bacon to)

Given representation? No. If they earn said representation such as in the recent EU elections then they have the same rights and abilities as the other successful candidates.
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Offline eb693

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #24 on: July 1, 2009, 01:35:23 PM »
I'm personally against the BNP. I'm having a lot of fun reading it but this line so far takes the cake:

"On current demographic trends we, the native British people, will be an ethnic
minority in our own country within sixty years."

1.) Please identify these 'demographic trends'. Statistics or it didn't happen.

2.) Please identify which race is the 'native British' one? Anglo-Saxon? Norman? Celtic? Jutes? Nordic? Seriously, having been invaded over and over and over again over the very long history of the settled British Isles, the idea of a native British ethnicity is a vague one. You mean 'White British'. Admit it.

Other interesting snippets from the manifesto:

- Abolition of the Race Relations Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Relations_Act

- "We will ensure that appropriate areas of public life, including school assemblies, are based on a commitment to the values of traditional Westernised Christianity."

Compare to

"Schools in England will be encouraged to celebrate May Day and other ancient festivals, whilst the other folk nations of the British Isles will be encouraged to resurrect their ancestral folk traditions."

Woop for paganism!

- "The number one threat to Britain ‘s national independence remains what it has been since the Romans launched their full occupation of Britain in 43 AD: a united Europe. Since the Norman Conquest, European imperialists or aspiring imperialists have threatened to invade this country, or otherwise extend their rule over it. The long list includes the Hapsburgs, Louis XIV, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler, and now, the EU."

- "The compulsory National Service system discussed elsewhere in this Manifesto would begin at the age of 18 with a period of basic training in the army. This would include full training with the citizens’ assault rifle.
Conscientious objectors who refuse to undertake military service would be allocated other constructive work for the community, but would not receive the citizen’s right to be armed, or the right to vote."

There are a lot of others, but they were the real gems that I spotted. The full manifesto can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/BNP_uk_manifesto.pdf

What do you guys think? Personally the 'Homeward Bound' scheme would be a mixed blessing, if the BNP were to somehow (extremely unlikely!) get into power; not only would I keep my stuff and my money, and get free tickets to the USA plus compensation to leave, I would get to live in a free country, as opposed to under the BNP's yoke! Plus my girlfriend, despite being second-generation British, would have to leave due to her skin colour - I'm sure we could leave together.

All joking aside, a lot of this is seriously fascist; even if Democracy allows such a group to take power, hopefully Liberty will prevail. A favourite Ben Franklin quote:

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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Offline Archaon

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #25 on: July 1, 2009, 05:22:10 PM »
Honestly I disagree with the BNP and all they are striving for. The only interest I have ever had in them is having a lol about some of their ridiculous policies. While they should have their opinion known, fair enough, people should also relise that much of their rascist hatred is without base becuase, as far as I know there are many big things going on in the world but none of them have much to do with different races inhabiting out country.

As a point to Chuckles and A.Chap, I'm not quite sure what your trying to argue, becuase to begin with you were saying about racism and whether the BNP should get representation in our democracy but now you just seem to be arguing over the definition or racism and morals.

the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
wordnet.princeton.e du/perl/webwn

ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong
wordnet.princeton.e du/perl/webwn

I'm not sure how much these definitions will help you but here they are for reference.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #26 on: July 1, 2009, 09:59:24 PM »
The homeward bound scheme is frankly barbaric. Its primarily aimed at... "you are not white beslubber you"...

Its a horrible scheme aimed at driving out people based on their skin colour because every other person can argue being "local". Its frankly retarded.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline Shaviv

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #27 on: July 2, 2009, 08:44:29 PM »
You know, one of the funny things about the BNP is that I'm as pale-skinned as IainC is (or at least IainC's avatar), I have a pretty ordinary Northern- and Western-European set of features and light brown hair, but I'd be considered non-white.

And, thereby, under their system, I would be worth less as a human being, and worthless as a citizen of the UK (I'm a Yankee, for better or for worse).

How could I or anyone I had any respect for vote for such a party?
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Offline Tamuz

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #28 on: July 3, 2009, 06:22:47 AM »
What do you guys think? Personally the 'Homeward Bound' scheme would be a mixed blessing, if the BNP were to somehow (extremely unlikely!) get into power; not only would I keep my stuff and my money, and get free tickets to the USA plus compensation to leave, I would get to live in a free country, as opposed to under the BNP's yoke! Plus my girlfriend, despite being second-generation British, would have to leave due to her skin colour - I'm sure we could leave together.


LOL. Its alright for you, I would probably be stuck here.

I hope we could at least rely on you expats to drum up forreign support for the revolution  ;D

Seriously though, as amusing as I find the BNP's policies and views, I doubt they will ever gain more than a handful of seats anywhere.

I reckon they should be allowed to air their veiws as much as they like (I'm all for free speech). But rather than be allowed to just point out problems (which is where they gain what sympathy and support they have), they should have to publicise and debate their solutions. This would serve the dual purpose of giving us all a good laugh (they can't really be taken seriously) and exposing them for the crackpots they are.

I especially love the Idea to turf half the country out on their ear. Just imagine the chaos we'd be in when we realised we no longer had a workforce.  ;D
 

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: BNP yay or nay
« Reply #29 on: July 3, 2009, 09:07:55 AM »
Not half the country, just 10%. Its standard nazi practice. Never mind it would mean the two biggest tax payers in the UK would have to leave... (Abramovic and Mittal)

Reading the PDF I can cull some points for you ladies...

excuse to disarm many thousands of law-abiding citizens was one of the most breath-takingly cynical acts of
the Blair regime. Put simply, guns do not kill people, criminals kill people – especially
when innocent people do not have guns with which to defend themselves.


Guns don't kill people, its just that certain sound they make.

Politically Correct denial of the existence of
differences on average between members of different races – we reject all these
irrational myths. This must not be taken to mean or imply that we believe that any particular ethnic
group or race is ‘superior’ or ‘inferior’; we simply recognise that – as any biologist
would be able to predict, and the new medical science of pharmacogenetics is now
confirming – human populations which have undergone micro-evolutionary changes
while being separated for many thousands of years have developed differences in
many fields of endeavour, susceptibility to health problems, behavioural tendencies
and such like. We therefore believe that the myth that “we are all the same under the
skin” will soon be as discredited as its feminist equivalent, and that all political parties
will have to drastically amend their thinking to reflect the new reality in the not too
distant future.


O'Rly? Genetics you say? *grows beard... Strokes beard*

We are further encouraged to see this as essential by two other factors. The first is
the truly gruesome record of multi-ethnic societies breaking down into hatred and
mass murder. From Bosnia to Rwanda, Indonesia to Northern Ireland, one only has to
scratch most of the conflicts in the world – ranging from low-level loathing to outright
genocide – to find that at the root of the problem is the juxtaposition by past
migration or strategic decision by a ruling class of two or more different peoples in the
same piece of territory.


Protestants and Catholics are now genetically different?

We will return, so far as conditions permit, to traditional foot and bicycle patrol
policing and reduce reliance on police cars.


We will stop criminals with our harsh words!

Staff numbers are boosted, slashing unnecessary bureaucracy and by
addressing the root cause of low recruitment and retention - low pay. There is no
shortage of beds in the NHS, only of staff to look after the patients who should
be in them.


After you just got rid of the population who make up a lot of your doctors? You know the darkies who eat curry.  Oh right, money is what makes doctors, its that simple!! We will train more doctors, except the problem is demand. People don't want to be doctors because its hard.


The burden imposed on our NHS by treating imported diseases such as TB and
the new wave of heterosexual AIDS is removed forthwith. In addition to refusing
to allow their carriers entry into Britain , or deporting those already here, we
would also introduce a massive public health awareness campaign on the
danger of choosing high-risk groups as sexual partners.


TB comes from cattle. AKA farmers in the UK often carry it...

We reject egalitarianism, and base our plans for the education system on the
scientific fact that different individuals are born with different abilities and potentials.
All are entitled to the same chance of realizing their own potential, but this cannot be
done be forcing them all into a low-grade ‘one-size-fits-all’ education system.


Yeah, sure you do that BNP. I am going to point out that you guys are not the brain trust.

We will restore all of the old exams that have been abolished, starting with the
"A" and "O" Levels, and will reverse the dumbing down of those that have not
been dumbed down.


In my day exams were hard! You had to crawl on your tongue to get there... Then they would kill you! Kids these days!

We will eliminate nonsense subjects and reallocate funding and the time of pupils
to traditional subjects like reading, writing, and maths.


Damn Unicorn Studies!

Council education authorities should be abolished and the money swallowed up
by their bureaucracies given instead to each individual school. Co-ordination
between schools should be organized on a county basis by the head teachers.


Er. So your going to remove bureacracy by giving bureacracy to non bureacrats thereby making it nor bureacracy but paperwork?

We will aim to make a good high-school education sufficient for many
professions, eliminating the need for expensive university degrees where they are
not called for.


Yeah cause kids are really smart and know what they want to do?

We will fund industrial-incubator laboratories and other means by which
university research is made useful to industry.

A good plan except for three problems.
1. Research does not work like that
2. There is no such thing as industrial incubator laboratories
3. What is an industrial incubator laboratory?

no income tax

Er... Yeah...

The current unsustainable practice of ‘mining’ our soil for what little remains of its
fertility in the industrial production of low quality arable food will be replaced by
sustainable, mixed agriculture based on family farms employing high technology
as well as sound husbandry.


So wait we will stop modern agriculture and go back to family farming and increase production using MAGIC!

We are pledged to ensure the restoration of Britain ‘s once great fishing industry
with the re - imposition of the former exclusion zones around our coast. The
Royal Navy will police the territorial limit and prevent all foreign fishing fleets
entering British waters by force if required.


Which will bring you in direct conflict with the EU who also have territorial rights to those areas. And indeed without the restrictions of the EU you tools will outfish your waters like you were going to do before the EU pointed out how batamphetamine parrot insane your fishermen were since they were greedy. No EU subsidy to your fishermen will force them to overfish.

10. We will not permit the growing of GM crops. We believe in environmentalism based on sound science.

O'rly? Because environmentalism based on science says GM crops are safer for the environment than cattle... Dumbass...

If Britain is attacked by rogue states or terrorists then we will respond with
maximum force until the threat is eradicated.


Sounds awful like something someone else said once. And with what? NATO meant that there was technology transfer between different members.

Individuals would be free to refuse to undertake any form of National Service, but
such a refusal to serve the community for the common good would result in their
not being entitled to free places at university, on training courses or selfemployment
schemes. Whereas some other politicians mouth platitudes about
there being “no rights without responsibilities”, we mean it.


Nice, quick question. How many of the BNP served in the current army which you can do if you so wish (EG. territorial army). Surprisingly not that many. Big words for armchair generals.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

 


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