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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2008, 07:47:47 PM »
Religion is a necessity. ;)
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2008, 07:55:17 PM »
the Udders of Thoth.

Finding oneself without religion for an extended period of time is not automatically life endangering. Claiming religion as an addiction would have had more merit than claiming it as a necessity.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2008, 08:04:01 PM »
I was being glib. That wasn't necessarily meant to be analysed.

Do people live without formalised religious belief? Yes, of course. On a broader scale, though, I would say that some form of spiritual awareness is essential to human life. Maybe you disagree; that's fine. It's a religious judgement, and we all know what the non-religious think of those.

Is it an addiction, though? I hardly see how ideologies can be considered addictions. Addictions are physical responses, aren't they?
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2008, 08:07:44 PM »
I was being glib. That wasn't necessarily meant to be analysed.

Try harder next time rather than attempting a sound bite. ;)

Do people live without formalised religious belief? Yes, of course. On a broader scale, though, I would say that some form of spiritual awareness is essential to human life. Maybe you disagree; that's fine. It's a religious judgement, and we all know what the non-religious think of those.

Essential? No. Complimentary? Perhaps. If one can do without then the matter is hardly by any means essential.

Is it an addiction, though? I hardly see how ideologies can be considered addictions. Addictions are physical responses, aren't they?

See the previous definition of cessation causing trauma. Crisis of faith anyone?
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2008, 08:25:14 PM »
Try harder next time rather than attempting a sound bite. ;)

Point taken. I have to be ever on my guard with you around, don't I?

Quote
Essential? No. Complimentary? Perhaps. If one can do without then the matter is hardly by any means essential.

Notice I made a distinction between 'formalised religious belief' and 'spiritual awareness'. Call me crazy if you will, but it seems to me that all humans have some degree of spiritual awareness, whether they call it that or not, whether they subscribe to any specific religious creed or not. I realise that may sound odd or silly to those of you of a more rationalist atheist bent, but I expect that.

Quote
See the previous definition of cessation causing trauma. Crisis of faith anyone?

That's much too broad a definition, though. Cessation of most any habit causes trauma.
The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2008, 08:31:39 PM »
Notice I made a distinction between 'formalised religious belief' and 'spiritual awareness'. Call me crazy if you will, but it seems to me that all humans have some degree of spiritual awareness, whether they call it that or not, whether they subscribe to any specific religious creed or not. I realise that may sound odd or silly to those of you of a more rationalist atheist bent, but I expect that.

As many of us have seen this line of thought before. Without beneficial evidence it's all a thought experiment though. I know, damn that souless science and requiring proof. Thus we'll just circle the point once more and continue on as always.

That's much too broad a definition, though. Cessation of most any habit causes trauma.

Did you just call religion a habit?  ;)

You answer your own question all the same.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2008, 09:18:09 PM »
Did you just call religion a habit?  ;)

Many religious rituals are actions taken regularly over a long period. Taking a day of rest each week, praying five times a day, lighting Shabbat candles... these are habitual actions. What else could they be? Habits aren't bad things to have.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2008, 09:29:46 PM »
Perhaps you'd like to use the word "tradition" there rather than habit? One is of the community and the other is of the individual.  Habit, tradition, addiction. A process all of their own.

Edit: Should add obsession in there as well. Habit, tradition, obsession, and addiction. All have their own flavour and their own consequences.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 09:54:03 PM by Doktor Rummy »
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Offline Kojiro

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2008, 12:51:47 AM »
Well, Dr. Rummy, I think you sum of the points I was going to make, so there is no point in reiterating. 

Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2008, 01:15:35 AM »
Should add obsession in there as well. Habit, tradition, obsession, and addiction. All have their own flavour and their own consequences.

Different connotations, at least. Defining where one ends and the other begins could be rather difficult.
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Offline Arkion

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2008, 02:00:30 AM »
Ted Haggard gives me the willies.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2008, 04:34:43 AM »
Finding oneself without religion for an extended period of time is not automatically life endangering. Claiming religion as an addiction would have had more merit than claiming it as a necessity.
   Look at it this way: If you could pick a place to live out of two available, both similar in every respect except that in one you risk getting eaten by wolves and in the other you have no religious freedom, a LOT of people would pick the ones with the rabid canines. People flee countries to gain religious freedom - that is how important it is.

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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2008, 07:56:30 AM »
Finding oneself without religion for an extended period of time is not automatically life endangering. Claiming religion as an addiction would have had more merit than claiming it as a necessity.
   Look at it this way: If you could pick a place to live out of two available, both similar in every respect except that in one you risk getting eaten by wolves and in the other you have no religious freedom, a LOT of people would pick the ones with the rabid canines. People flee countries to gain religious freedom - that is how important it is.

In fact, for many people, religious freedom is more important than life itself. If you are a Christian,as I am, then you believe that your fate in eternity is more important than short term comfort in this life. From a Christian theological point of view, being without Christian faith is (eternal) life endangering.

I freely admit that I am biased (because I believe that Christianity is true), but, if I am right, it would be more sensible to compare faith with oxygen than with drugs. There are many superficial similarities (the "addict" rapidly goes into withdrawal, nasty side effects, need repeated fixes) but one is a need so I would not really call it an addiction.

Offline Killing Time

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2008, 08:16:16 AM »
I freely admit that I am biased (because I believe that Christianity is true), but, if I am right, it would be more sensible to compare faith with oxygen than with drugs. There are many superficial similarities (the "addict" rapidly goes into withdrawal, nasty side effects, need repeated fixes) but one is a need so I would not really call it an addiction.

That's bloody daft.
One can't live without oxygen. One can live without religion.

And even for the sake of argument assuming that eternal life is a real possibility, it's only under the strictures of the Abrahamic religions that pro-active worship is a necessity on this one either.

Dizzy
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 08:58:06 AM by Dizz »

Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2008, 09:57:14 AM »
Ah Dizzy, please read my post carefully. I stated "if I am right" quite prominently. From the point of view of the bible, one cannot "live" without relationship with God. Now I am assuming that Christianity is correct (which you are free to disagree with), but under this, the only way to get eternal life would be through faith in Jesus- it would be essential, just like oxygen is essential. The difficulty is that both can only be proved by dying (remember this is only an analogy so lets not get into testing individual cells or biochemical processes)

I freely admit that I am biased (because I believe that Christianity is true), but, if I am right, it would be more sensible to compare faith with oxygen than with drugs. There are many superficial similarities (the "addict" rapidly goes into withdrawal, nasty side effects, need repeated fixes) but one is a need so I would not really call it an addiction.

That's bloody daft.
One can't live without oxygen. One can live without religion.

And even for the sake of argument assuming that eternal life is a real possibility, it's only under the strictures of the Abrahamic religions that pro-active worship is a necessity on this one either.

Dizzy

Offline Killing Time

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2008, 10:28:17 AM »
Let's stick with the analogy for a moment.

You've got this drug that you think might save your immortal soul, but have absolutely no evidence as to whether it actually will since there don't seem to be any functioning soul monitors in the local hospital. In fact opinion is divided about whether you even have one, but you decide to go ahead and take the drug anyway. It feels good and there can't be any harm in it, right?

Some time into this self proscribed treatment you discover certain side effects linked to the drug. On the one side it can produce euphoric feelings and a sense of deep and abiding well being. However, on the flip side it is highly addictive and any extended periods of abstinence leads to sickness, paranoia and even acts of physical violence.  Indeed, so erratic is the drug that these symptoms can manifest even during periods of excessive use.....especially in the presence of the users of different drugs.
Think of the scenes outside a nightclub where a bunch of drunks meet up with a bunch of twitchy crack heads.

The question is:
Do you make this drug freely available to children?

Chemotherapies are often the treatment of last resort, especially to children, because of the associated risks, and we know that these can save your life.
Psychoactive substances and hallucinogens are generally illegal, even when there may be little or no evidence of associated addictive behaviour.
The minimum age to purchase legal drugs in the UK is 18. Strict licensing laws surround the pharmaceutical industry as well as the recreational use of tobacco and alcohol.

By your own measure, the immortal soul is the most precious organ in your entire body and yet you willfully self proscribe an untested, untestable, addictive and potentially dangerous ritual to keep it healthy, seemly at random from a shop counter stocked with hundreds of competing brands, each of which boldly claiming that not only are they uniquely efficacious, but that consumption of a rival substance will permanently undo all their good work.

And you let children into the shop and calmly select your favourite bottle from the shelf before helping them to spoon in their first mouthful.
Doesn't really seem right, does it?

Dizzy

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2008, 01:34:59 PM »
Look at it this way: If you could pick a place to live out of two available, both similar in every respect except that in one you risk getting eaten by wolves and in the other you have no religious freedom, a LOT of people would pick the ones with the rabid canines. People flee countries to gain religious freedom - that is how important it is.

Which still does not make the absence of religion life endangering. Using your own example, some people would live with the rabid canines to get away from religion. Religious freedom swings in all directions after all. Being free to follow one's own faith also means others should be free not to follow it. The colouring of the debate that religion as a necessity goes against the principles of religious freedom.

In fact, for many people, religious freedom is more important than life itself. If you are a Christian,as I am, then you believe that your fate in eternity is more important than short term comfort in this life. From a Christian theological point of view, being without Christian faith is (eternal) life endangering.

Which is confusing the issue as Rasmus did above. Religious freedom also means absence of religion. If religion is a necessity then absence of religion should be harmful to the individual. Hunger strikes, for example, are a means of protest which are harmful to the individual. Would a religion strike be as harmful?

I freely admit that I am biased (because I believe that Christianity is true), but, if I am right, it would be more sensible to compare faith with oxygen than with drugs. There are many superficial similarities (the "addict" rapidly goes into withdrawal, nasty side effects, need repeated fixes) but one is a need so I would not really call it an addiction.

Which is an absurd comparison.  :)  If you were in a coma and unable to worship would it be the same as being able to worship but not breathe? As listed above, you could throw in the terms addiction, tradition, habit, or obsession to describe such practices. Mine settle more in the habit side of things. Saying that following a religion is similar to the need for oxygen is way out there in the obsession side.
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2008, 03:43:43 PM »
Wow, Dizz, I think you put my finger on part of what's bothered me about religion for a long time but couldn't quite express... That's a pretty clear way of describing it. Thanks.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2008, 06:04:27 PM »
Look at it this way: If you could pick a place to live out of two available, both similar in every respect except that in one you risk getting eaten by wolves and in the other you have no religious freedom, a LOT of people would pick the ones with the rabid canines. People flee countries to gain religious freedom - that is how important it is.

Which still does not make the absence of religion life endangering. Using your own example, some people would live with the rabid canines to get away from religion. Religious freedom swings in all directions after all. Being free to follow one's own faith also means others should be free not to follow it. The colouring of the debate that religion as a necessity goes against the principles of religious freedom.
   Absolutely. Religious Freedom swings wildly, as it should. I don't protest that. I do protest that people think it worth nothing just because they are not religious. Watch your children be forced to pray in school when you are a confirmed atheist and tell me that religious freedom only applies to those that have faith. It is a dangerous thing - restricting freedoms in any such manner.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2008, 06:11:00 PM »
Which is something I'm not arguing. In the same manner that freedom of speech applies even to speech I don't support and find abhorant.
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