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Offline Adarachir

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Jesus Camp(documentary)
« on: February 11, 2008, 06:36:35 AM »
Talk about madness... I for one would like to see the kids get to grow up and decide for themselves, rather than being brainwashed like this. Any parents here who wish to comment?

One woman, in part 2, talks about how bad it is that they brainwash and indoctrinate children to religious fanatisism in Pakistan, but stilll she wants children in the western world to be as commited to the cause of Jesus Christ, as they are to Islam in the Middle East, because "we got the Truth!"... Madness...

The little "rally" in part 1 made me think of Hitlerjugend... Am I too far off there, or do others see the same similarity?

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
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Offline Ansteadt

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 01:48:14 PM »
I just watched the whole series, and all I could ponder over was "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." Mark 10:15.  Kinda puts a new twist on that.  I'm not sure if that would have been exactly what was in Jesus's mind.  But, who am I to speculate on the intentions.

I for one wholeheartedly support the separation of Church and state.  The original intent with the separation was to protect not the State, but the Church.  If a Church takes over the State, what will become of the other Churches and other teachings?  They bite at the hand that allows them the freedom to do what they feel is right.  The purpose was not to remove religion from schools and institutions, but to give no official endorsement over FAITH.  If one is concerned whether God visits schools or churchs (dead churches?) then all one has to do is to read the Gospel of Thomas.  Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.  Split a piece of wood; I am there.  Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."  (vs 77)

oh, the really interesting stuff starts at around part 5-7 or 8.

EDIT: I also remember talking to somebody about the Church/State.  I distinctly recall a saying that really no Church had to fear prayer being left out of schools.  As long as there are Math tests, there will be prayer in schools!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 01:50:31 PM by Ansteadt »
Although it would be nice to credit the General with fearing for his own troop's safety, it would probably be the case the he was not given the opportunity to lay waste to his own men in a wonderful show of power to the enemy.

Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 02:21:49 PM »
I have not watched the series, but I think it is worth pointing out that the vast majority of Christians (myself included) do not take the Gospel of Thomas to be scripture (there is a lot of evidence that it may date from 200ish AD). As such it would not be used to support any point of doctrine or evidence. There is a lot of apocrypha out there, which may well be interesting but should be kept distinct from the bible.

Quote
I just watched the whole series, and all I could ponder over was "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." Mark 10:15.  Kinda puts a new twist on that.  I'm not sure if that would have been exactly what was in Jesus's mind.  But, who am I to speculate on the intentions.

There is quite good evidence that this is not the case. The difficulty with using older biblical translations is that the language it was translated into has changed. If you look at the NIV version it translates "as a little child" as "like a little child". While "as" now has has the meaning of both "while" and "like" I don't believe that this duality of meaning is found in the original text (I can check the original greek if you want, or at least ask my wife to :) ). This passage does not support that you have to be a child to be saved, just that you should be like a child (i.e. trusting and totally dependant on its parent (God) and not trying to bring anything to the table yourself)

Offline Abraxas

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 04:28:57 PM »
I saw it in theatres and walked away a little... angry, actually.

The ironic thing is that Ted Haggard, the Evengelical minister in the documentary, recently got caught buying crystal meth. He was also with a man who he had sex with to get the meth.

Although I'm an atheist, I respect the personal choice of religion... but I have to say that these people, no matter how small in number they are, scare the bejeezes out of me. They're no better than the Westboro Baptist Church, in my opinion.

Quote from: Adarachir
One woman, in part 2, talks about how bad it is that they brainwash and indoctrinate children to religious fanatisism in Pakistan, but stilll she wants children in the western world to be as commited to the cause of Jesus Christ, as they are to Islam in the Middle East, because "we got the Truth!"... Madness...

"Irony" at its finest.
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Offline Ansteadt

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 05:06:54 PM »
Oh believe me, the quote above was more of an ironic observation that I had made from watching the film.  I was specifically taking the trust and dependence aspect and comparing it to the trust and dependence in the Film.  Namely the homeschooling part and the willful acceptance of anything presented to them.  It is still a good verse, but in this context the children may not know the question, but are fed the answer without any explanation (metaphorically). Repetition like that can be viewed as a for of brainwashing.  Keep telling someone that the sky is red early on, and to them the sky will be red.  Really, I don't have a problem with it, people are free to raise their kids how they want. 

« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 05:12:43 PM by Ansteadt »
Although it would be nice to credit the General with fearing for his own troop's safety, it would probably be the case the he was not given the opportunity to lay waste to his own men in a wonderful show of power to the enemy.

Offline Postino

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 05:06:28 AM »
nuttin' like an orgy for jaysus! amen.

I hit those clips here and there, those children in #8 don't seem to have any idea of what they're saying. "Those liberals arr shakin' in their boots"... did I miss the declaration of a war on liberals...or liberty? ack.

You know on the one hand I have to forgive these people believing what they will. After all faith is faith no matter how you put it and these folks don't actually think they are destroying anything.

On the other hand these beliefs are backtracking us socially. All the rampant religiosity is making unthinking drones out of so many people... These people ARE NOT small in number Abraxas. And through what ever means necessary they grow their numbers... You've gotten the tracks..."Are you afraid of going to HELL??? come to my church. All you have to do is say some words and all your problems will be handled by someone else." And the Christians that are not off the deep end of it will just sit by and let it happen, after all they're fellow Christians. Islam and Jews are wrong/ours is the only true God? Apparently the lot of them forgot that all of Judeo-Christianity branches from the sons of Abraham. You people still insist on killing one another.  ::)

The principle that any of our actions might be inherently bad, or that humans are inherently bad, is poppycock. The absolute nature of 'sin' cannot exist in a universe where nothing is absolute. To be a bit of a bastard, I'd even say that the desire to adhere to "morals" is what made certain actions "bad" in the first place.

Meh...I could chase this tail all night and be just as rabid about it as any evangelical baptist minister.



Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 05:41:04 AM »
On the other hand these beliefs are backtracking us socially. All the rampant religiosity is making unthinking drones out of so many people... These people ARE NOT small in number Abraxas.

Now I don't mean to defend fundamentalism or religious extremism (for such things are disgraceful and corrosive), but I hope you're not talking about all religion. Bursts of extremism, as arise in some places, are, I will agree, a social evil. Let us not be so blind as to apply that to others of the faith, though.

Quote
The principle that any of our actions might be inherently bad, or that humans are inherently bad, is poppycock. The absolute nature of 'sin' cannot exist in a universe where nothing is absolute.

When, exactly, did we start living in a universe where nothing is absolute?
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Offline small_furry_spider

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 07:39:40 AM »
The principle that any of our actions might be inherently bad, or that humans are inherently bad, is poppycock. The absolute nature of 'sin' cannot exist in a universe where nothing is absolute.

Ah yes, the old chestnut of there are no absolutes (apart from the aforementioned one :) )- I have met very few people who actually believed this at all if you take it to its logical conclusion. We can go there if you like, but it gets a bit messy and may well derail the thread.

You can believe (and indeed take it on faith) that there are no absolutes, but that does not make it so. In fact the majority of the world's population would disagree with you (both Christian and non-Christian). You cannot know that there are no absolutes (I am assuming you mean moral not in general) anymore than I can know that heaven exists.

Quote
To be a bit of a bastard, I'd even say that the desire to adhere to "morals" is what made certain actions "bad" in the first place.

To quickly clarify what you are saying, are you suggesting that say, for example, hacking up children with an axe is only wrong because the bible says we should not do it?

Offline 40kfomPodmaster

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 08:08:56 AM »
I just watched the whole series, and all I could ponder over was "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it." Mark 10:15.  Kinda puts a new twist on that.  I'm not sure if that would have been exactly what was in Jesus's mind.  But, who am I to speculate on the intentions.

In a recent "Exploring Christianity" Bible study I participated in at my local chapel, we studied Mark's gospel from beginning to end. That particular passage had the sceptics amongst us querying Christ's intent. The common intrepretation seems to be that "...as a child" means to accept God etc with childlike innocence wholeheartedly, as opposed to actually being an anklebiter!

...I for one wholeheartedly support the separation of Church and state... 

As long as there are Math tests, there will be prayer in schools!

Amen to both of that!

Offline Postino

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 01:40:58 PM »
Now I don't mean to defend fundamentalism or religious extremism (for such things are disgraceful and corrosive), but I hope you're not talking about all religion. Bursts of extremism, as arise in some places, are, I will agree, a social evil. Let us not be so blind as to apply that to others of the faith, though.

I think we all reserve the right to draw a line between religion and cultism. But some do slip past it...like Scientology.

Quote
The principle that any of our actions might be inherently bad, or that humans are inherently bad, is poppycock. The absolute nature of 'sin' cannot exist in a universe where nothing is absolute.

When, exactly, did we start living in a universe where nothing is absolute?
[/quote]

Quote
Ah yes, the old chestnut of there are no absolutes (apart from the aforementioned one Smiley )- I have met very few people who actually believed this at all if you take it to its logical conclusion. We can go there if you like, but it gets a bit messy and may well derail the thread.

You can believe (and indeed take it on faith) that there are no absolutes, but that does not make it so. In fact the majority of the world's population would disagree with you (both Christian and non-Christian). You cannot know that there are no absolutes (I am assuming you mean moral not in general) anymore than I can know that heaven exists.

What then is absolute? Is it good and evil? The laws of physics? Perception? Love? YOu have me on the inability to prove it, I'll grant, and there are probably a few that are in fact absolute...like death, but that is beatable (cloning and brain transplants anyone?).

For you example of hacking up children...For the sake of the argument lets pretend these are animal offspring. In that case there are many situations in nature that provide for it to be necessary, either for competition of resources or for promotion of a particular gene-line. It is neither right nor wrong, it is nature. It is "God's nature" if you prefer it; it was designed with that intent.

Offline Abraxas

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 01:58:36 PM »
These people ARE NOT small in number Abraxas.

This extremist type, yes, are rare.

On the whole, Evengelicals are just very religous and don't mind religion playing a larger part in government (something our Constitution and Thomas Jefferson explicitly) but only a few go to the extremes that the people in this movie go to. I don't care about the people that make fools of themselves at church - mocking seizures and all - but it's the people that wish to force this amphetamine parrot on everyone else that I can't tolerate.

Here's an actual quote from Mike Huckabee, a Republican presidential candidate: "[Some of my opponents] do not want to change the Constitution, but I believe it's a lot easier to change the constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God, and that's what we need to do is to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards".

This is tripe and it scares the crap out of me that he's even considered a legitimate person to run this country.

He's an extremist... but not all of them are.
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Offline Postino

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 04:23:43 PM »
Not all of them are, but I think you're dumbing down the numbers. Anything labled as "evangelical" I consider extremist Christianity. Any time "living" is in the name of a church it is probably a "rock and roll" church.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 04:24:58 PM by Postino »

Offline Abraxas

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 08:55:50 PM »
Anything labled as "evangelical" I consider extremist Christianity.

Well, I respect you're opinion... but I think you're going a little overboard there.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 09:50:54 PM »
What then is absolute? Is it good and evil? The laws of physics? Perception? Love? YOu have me on the inability to prove it, I'll grant, and there are probably a few that are in fact absolute...like death, but that is beatable (cloning and brain transplants anyone?).

I'll admit that neither can I prove that it is absolute, for, as I've argued here before, when it comes down to it, we as humans are not capable of proving anything absolutely. (The notion that we can't prove anything is either an exception to its own rule, or itself in doubt. Either perspective is philosophically sound.)

Still, you asked what's absolute. In my opinion, morality is, by the very fact of its existence. Physics - no. It may seem that way but as a rule I don't think the physical world is as absolute or as 'concrete' as we often like to think. Love comes into morality, as do all other emotions. Death is one that is very probably inevitably. The idea of brain transplants into cloned bodies, AI patterning, anything of that sort, is a whole set of issues in itself. The major problem, it seems to me, is that we have yet to produce a universally accepted idea of what constitutes personal identity. Without an adequate definition of what makes a person the same person they were before, cloning and patterning and such are questionable. At one extreme you might say that not only is death inevitable, death is instantaneous - in every instant that passes, everything dies, for that which exists an instant later is not the same thing. Food for thought at any rate.

Quote from: Postino
Any time "living" is in the name of a church it is probably a "rock and roll" church.

That's something of a personal bugbear, actually. Is it too much to ask for religious rituals to have a little dignity to them, a little gravitas?
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Offline Postino

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 10:38:07 PM »
The existence of morality in and of itself may be absolute; Iv'e heard conjectured (from NPR probably) that morals are the evolved state of social productivity/procurement/protection. You do things to one another that benifits not-only yourself but also those around you.

But the morals held are certainly not absolute. Even on an individual  level what you believe to be morally justifiable on day may not be the same the next. And from one culture to the next?

Death, as far as what we are capable of right now, is inevitable and therefore absolute.
EDIT: Actually , death is not absolute according to most, if not all, religions.
The individuality thing for me is an easy answer; I think therefore I am. I have memories that define who I am and whom I have been. It may be that I was a differenrt person when I was 16 than who I am now but that "different person" was once and still is a part of me.

Anywho, back to religious nuts...

Religious Right, Moral Majority, these are the things that make me want to move to Canada. Ok, so theres other things too but whatev.

And the rock and roll churches...what these folks call worship...their god made angels to do that for one thing. For another Jesus never said "hey worship me." If these people want to actually make Jesus happy they should go spend an couple of hours every sunday at a soup kitchen, not wriggling on the floor of some concert hall. 

There are "good Christians", I've met a handful, but by and large they're self-serving, self-glorifying, socially conformative cheese-dicks like everyone else.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 01:18:18 AM by Postino »

Offline Cpt. Banjo

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2008, 01:42:39 AM »

But the morals held are certainly not absolute. Even on an individual  level what you believe to be morally justifiable on day may not be the same the next. And from one culture to the next?


Morality changes with the circumstances.

Take World War 2. At the start of the war, the allies considered it a war crime to bomb cities yet by the end of the conflict the fire bombing of German and Japanese on a scale that Goering could only dream of in 1940/41.

This is not to say that I believe the Allies to in some way be equal to the Axis regimes or that, at least in the case of the atomic bombings if not the firebombings, there were better option.  Rather it is that the means used was a win for barbarity, not humanity.

On topic, frankly the more extreme elements of the religious right scares me silly, not so much because of what they are (instead I find it annoying) but for the way they are coming to wield so much power over American and, as we are just beginning to see, Australian politics.

I'm worried about the seperation of church and state; it is one of the most important and cherished tenants of Western civilisation - it seems like we're sliding backward. On the surface, everything appears if not fine then not alarming but once you look a little deeper things are just a little off. Especially in the US, important positions seemed to get filled by those with sympathy for the religious right. Science is being steam-rolled and gradually losing the respect it once had. Western society as a whole is devolving into mass ignorance that is essentially

Meh, perhaps I'm just noticing this now that I'm older. Maybe I'm paranoid and going crazy.  ;D

At any rate, the great thing about living in a free and civil society (at least for now) is that I am able to voice this message peacefully without recourse to arms, unlike so many others in history. It is this, more than anything else, that I want to see preserved.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2008, 02:27:19 AM »
Quote from: Postino
But the morals held are certainly not absolute. Even on an individual  level what you believe to be morally justifiable on day may not be the same the next. And from one culture to the next?

The presence of moral disagreement, as well as some people changing their minds, does not constitute any sort of argument against absolute morals. All it shows is that people often disagree over what morals are or are themselves unsure about what they are.

It is entirely possible that when two cultures disagree over a moral matter that one culture is wrong and another is right, or that both are wrong. Similarly, when a person changes their mind, it's possible that they've corrected a past error, or made a mistake and exchanged a correct conclusion for a false one.

Have a think about the arguments a bit more. Of course, what I've just said is not an argument in favour of absolutism. I merely point out that what you've presented isn't evidence that morals are relative in the slightest.

Quote
The individuality thing for me is an easy answer; I think therefore I am. I have memories that define who I am and whom I have been. It may be that I was a differenrt person when I was 16 than who I am now but that "different person" was once and still is a part of me.

That answer doesn't fly philosophically.

Why are you, the person reading this right now, the same person who existed ten years ago? Or the person who existed just a few hours ago, when you wrote that post. What is it that makes you the same? Let's have a look at some possible answers. It may sound patronising, if so, I apologise, but I'm never quite sure whether it's best to assume you know these things or don't. Think of it as an introduction to some of the problem's complexities.

1/ Your physical body. The person reading this is the same person who wrote the post I reply to because it's the same physical body. The problem with this is obvious, though. Your body changes. I forget the exact figure, but a human replaces every molecule in their body over just a few years. The person you were ten years ago shares no physical similarity with the person you are now, so logically must be a different person. Not many people like thinking this, so -

2/ Your spatio-temporal continuity with past bodies. This is more or less the same as 1/ only it takes into account time as well. You're the same person as the person you were ten years ago because your body occupies the same space-time coordinates as that person's body, and we can see that, across time, the body ten years back has grown and evolved into your current body. However, if this is what makes you the same, then death should make no difference. After you die your corpse will share spatio-temporal continuity with your body when you were alive, but most of the time you wouldn't say that your dead body is you in some fundamental sense. So, is the self entirely independent of the body?

3/ Your soul. A tricky prospect because souls are hard to define or observe. In this case we're talking about some sort of insubstantial non-physical force that is connected to your body in some way, and provides for your continuing identity. There's a common objection to this, though, originally raised by John Locke (I think; could be wrong, it's been a while) that runs thus - if you cannot observe your soul at all, how do you know you've still got the same one? For all you know souls could flit from body to body. Supposing you have a soul, how can you be sure the one you've got now is the same one you had ten years ago? There's no way of telling it's the same, and if so, the presence of any one specific soul has no effect on your behaviour. How can it be this, then?

4/ Your memories. This was the one Locke favoured. You are the same person you were ten years ago because you remember being that person. Again, though, this view has some obvious problems. Suppose a mad scientist came along with a machine that could tinker with memories, and swapped out your memories for someone else's. Would you then have been that person? A clone might have all the memories of the original, but does that mean that the clone was the person who did all the things the original did? Were they both that person? Neither? On a less outlandish level, suppose you get really drunk, do some things, and wake up the next morning with no memory of those events. If memories are the key to selfhood, then you were not the person who did those things - it was someone else. There's also a rather convincing thing called the brave officer objection you can Google.

5/ Nothing. You are not the same person you were ten years ago, or even the same person you were one instant ago. Those people are dead. The only person alive is the one who exists this exact moment - and by the time you finish reading this sentence, the person who started reading it will be dead. You have no continuing self. Not many Western philosophers think this way, but if you're curious Googling the word 'anatman' can show where this line of thought comes from.

6/ Some combination of these different factors?

7/ Or something completely different?

As you can see, it's not an easy question to answer.

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And the rock and roll churches...what these folks call worship...their god made angels to do that for one thing. For another Jesus never said "hey worship me."

No man comes to the Father save through me? I'm not about to go Gospel-trawling but there are some things you could interpret that way.

Quote from: Cpt. Banjo
Take World War 2. At the start of the war, the allies considered it a war crime to bomb cities yet by the end of the conflict the fire bombing of German and Japanese on a scale that Goering could only dream of in 1940/41.

That's not evidence that universal moral standards changed. That's only evidence that the Allies were willing to do things by the end of the war they weren't willing to at the start.
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Offline Postino

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2008, 04:17:32 AM »
Then please define "absolute morals"...

As for personal identity then all of the justifications are valid but I tend to favor memories. If a mad scientist cam along and erased my memories I would cease to be personally defined, and therefore cease to be "me". If perception is reality then I am whatever I perceive myself to be. All of this just furthers the principle that identity of self is subjective and not absolute.

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No man comes to the Father save through me

I've always taken that to mean "know me and know god". Nowhere that statement does it say get on you knees, lift up your hands and sway, be not bitten by snakes, walk on coals, shout hallelujah and amen, cut yourself, whip yourself, eat locusts and honey, kill yourself for a comet or any other of the plethora of inventions of man to show his devotion to any deity.

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2008, 04:50:35 AM »
It made me sad. People with that little regard for the wellbeing, social and emotional alike, of their children, should not be deemed fit parents. To subject your children willingly to teachings which will later in life cause them to be hurt or isolated is just wrong, end most people know this. These people however put forth their own agenda before the wellbeing of their children. Wanting to create some sub-class for their own children, rather than actually intergrating them into society (of course, there are degrees to this) is almost abuse.

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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Jesus Camp(documentary)
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 05:26:58 AM »
Then please define "absolute morals"...

Is this a trick question? The idea is that morality is something with absolute poles. There is right and there is wrong, and they are distinct, objective concepts. Simple enough, I should think.

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As for personal identity then all of the justifications are valid

That's a cop out. They're mutually exclusive.

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I tend to favor memories. If a mad scientist cam along and erased my memories I would cease to be personally defined, and therefore cease to be "me".

Let's follow this through. If your memories are erased, you are no longer the same person you were before you lost those memories. Pre-erase Postino is a different person to post-erase Postino, and neither is at all responsible for the other person's actions.

But it's not just mad scientists we're talking about. I'll wager you can't remember what you gor up to as a baby. To all intents and purposes, your memories of that baby are erased, for you (I assume) cannot remember what it was like to be a baby. Therefore that baby was not you. I mentioned drunkenness before - if you could not remember what you did, you did not do it. There doesn't even need to be any mind-altering substances or processes involved. If you honestly can't remember something, you did not do it. You did what you can remember doing, and anything else was done by someone else, who may have been very similar to you but nonetheless was not you.

Are you prepared to say that? Locke was, and he was fine with it. It doesn't get him out of the brave officer objection, of course, because identity is a transitive relation, but there you go.

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If perception is reality then I am whatever I perceive myself to be.

That's recursive, is it not? You have defined 'I' in terms of 'I'. It's not an adequate definition of 'I', or the self. Circular logic is to be avoided.
The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

 


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