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Offline Abuk

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European Team Championship 2011
« on: August 21, 2011, 02:35:16 AM »
Hi there,

Could anyone tell me if there is some news regarding ETC here on 40kOnline? I can't find it..
And the other question is- does any of you guys know that this tournament even exist?

..The Great Seductor strikes again..

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 05:07:26 AM »
You might want to check out this site: http://www.tabletoptournaments.net/etc/2011 features a live feed.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2011, 05:08:46 AM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline Squig...

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 07:12:58 AM »
Twitter is your friend, look for #etc11
Veni Vidi Vici

Offline Abuk

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 10:24:14 AM »
Yeah.. I know where I can find the results and my friends are sending sms and e-mails detailing their games. What surprises me is the fact that these are not mentioned anywhere here on the forums.. And I guess that it is one of the biggest and most competitive Wh40k events possible.
(European championship but US are in as well and in WFB New Zealand and Australia.. so quite a tournament)
..The Great Seductor strikes again..

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 04:56:32 PM »
I know of the ETC from listening to the 40KUK podcast, I believe they are doing a special episode on it.

I've not really seem much big tournament discussion on this forum I imagine dakka or warseer maybe better places to look for that kind of content. Or start a few threads and get us interested ;)

Offline Eidolon

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 10:25:40 PM »
And I guess that it is one of the biggest and most competitive Wh40k events possible.

Last time I checked it didnt permit special characters, 1750 is fairly meh points wise, and with an 8 player team and no repeat codexs a few players get stuck with crappy books. This basically means that winning is more about matching your team members up against their weakest opponent, and hoping the other 4 just survive. There was one like this here in America a few months back, the system was pretty easy to break tbh. The method of choosing teams was somewhat questionable. While I havent read up on it in a while, I guess several of the team USA guys had lackluster performance, and some of the better people over here simply werent invited. Seems like a fun event, but it gets a thumbs down from me for "competitiveness"

Offline Kaminari

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 03:27:56 AM »
Last time I checked it didnt permit special characters, 1750 is fairly meh points wise, and with an 8 player team and no repeat codexs a few players get stuck with crappy books.

The rules are agreed on by the team captains months before. 1750 points is due to the time limit. 8 codices is due to larger teams this year and more codex variability. Space Marines and Black Templars are counted as two different codices for example. And it does mean that some players have to get the best out fo their older codices, yes.

This basically means that winning is more about matching your team members up against their weakest opponent, and hoping the other 4 just survive. There was one like this here in America a few months back, the system was pretty easy to break tbh. The method of choosing teams was somewhat questionable.
The correct matchup gives you an advantage for sure. And while it is quite easy in a 3 player team it gains complexity and a high difficulty in a 6 or even 8 player team. Expect surprises nevertheless. In the final game on the top table Grey Knights significantly lost to Chaos Demons for example or all the Battlewagon Orks didn't came close to victory at all against their "good match", the German 2/9-player. Usually expect good mismatch players to aim for a draw though and the top players tabling their opponents for the team win. As well: all lists are posted in public before the ETC, time to prepare a strategy!

While I havent read up on it in a while, I guess several of the team USA guys had lackluster performance, and some of the better people over here simply werent invited. Seems like a fun event, but it gets a thumbs down from me for "competitiveness"
Please consider the 4 digit costs to travel over to europe as well as training with your team members before. The US captain has posted the reasons how and who was chosen in his blog and that was reproducable. i assure you that here in Germany there was lots of discussion as well, if those players were the best. But I can tell you for at least 4 of them there is no reason for discussion at all.

The days before the European Single Player Championship is being held as well, there you might get an idea of the individual players competetiveness. For my part they count towards the best players and I advice you: if you want to check its competetivity, play excellently, work hard and try to get into a team and see it first hand. Check the forums and blogs the next days when the teams have returned home again.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 03:47:28 AM by Kaminari »

Offline Eidolon

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 03:48:35 AM »
Last time I checked it didnt permit special characters, 1750 is fairly meh points wise, and with an 8 player team and no repeat codexs a few players get stuck with crappy books.

The rules are agreed on by the team captains months before. 1750 points is due to the time limit.

Its 3 hour rounds I believe. I got in 2 of my 3 2500 pt games at ard boys in about 105 minutes.

Quote
8 codices is due to larger teams this year and more codex variability. Space Marines and Black Templars are counted as two different codices for example. And it does mean that some players have to get the best out fo their older codices, yes.
reducing competitiveness by forcing some people to lowball it, although with dark eldar and gk out its better than it was last year.
Quote
This basically means that winning is more about matching your team members up against their weakest opponent, and hoping the other 4 just survive. There was one like this here in America a few months back, the system was pretty easy to break tbh. The method of choosing teams was somewhat questionable.
The correct matchup gives you an advantage for sure. And while it is quite easy in a 3 player team it gains complexity and a high difficulty in a 6 or even 8 player team. Expect surprises nevertheless. In the final game on the top table Grey Knights significantly lost to Chaos Demons for example or all the Battlewagon Orks didn't came close to victory at all against their "good match", the German 2/9-player. Usually expect good mismatch players to aim for a draw though and the top players tabling their opponents for the team win.

How did he lose to demons with gk on the top table? Bad dice rolls, terrible army list?
Wagon orks, its worth pointing out, are decidedly meh.

Quote
While I havent read up on it in a while, I guess several of the team USA guys had lackluster performance, and some of the better people over here simply werent invited. Seems like a fun event, but it gets a thumbs down from me for "competitiveness"
Please consider the 4 digit costs to travel over to europe as well as training with your team members before. The US captain has posted the reasons how and who was chosen in his blog and that was reproducable. i assure you that here in Germany there was lots of discussion as well, if those players were the best. But I can tell you for at least 4 of them there is no reason for discussion at all.

Im sure a lot of the players are fairly talented, but the point remains that the method of choosing who goes was questionable.

Quote
The days before the European Single Player Championship is being held as well, there you might get an idea of the individual players competetiveness. For my part they count towards the best players and I advice you: if you want to check its competetivity, play excellently, work hard and try to get into a team and see it first hand. Check the forums and blogs the next days when the teams have returned home again.

Perhaps I can check it out in a few years when I am likely going to be in Germany for a summer.

Offline Squig...

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 04:31:54 AM »
You have to keep in mind that there are different gaming cultures clashing at such events. The pace of the game is decidedly slower than in the US, which results in lower point limits due to the time. It is possible to play faster, sure, but not common at European tournaments, so why change it with a majority of teams attending being European?

Just as with national competitions in other sports, not always the 'best' players are called upon. It's also about team play and those kind of things, in 40k and whfb  as a teamsport just as well as in soccer or basketball. I mean, most important is that most people attending there have fun. The US team announced that it will open up spots on the team significantly for next year, btw (giving it to certain tournament winners and the likes).

Now you can of course argue that without SCs and with the team dynamics this is quite removed from 'standard' 40k tournament play, and that is fair enough. A fact is nevertheless that, as far as it goes for Europe, the best players attend, and last time I checked the Americans did not send nobodies over neither, be they the very best in the US or not. It doesn't call itself the Warhammer World Championship, or European Championship, but a team championship, suggesting it is different from standard tournament play to begin with.
Veni Vidi Vici

Offline Abuk

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 05:12:16 AM »
This interview explains the process of assembling Polish team. It also touches some issues about 'playing against bad metch-ups'..

http://www.youtube.com/rhqtv#p/u/9/GY_ktoEL7SI

It's cool to seat in front of a monitor and write 'they are sissies'. If you're so cool and if it's so easy to win by doing obvious pairings than try to participate next time. ;)
Sweden lost it's 3rd place and it's a pity.. After winning with extremely strong Germans they lost against Poles and US won with so called 'easy frag' which was UK team resulting in Sweden being pushed to 4th place.

Wonder why England achieves poor results?
I mean- they did invented this game, didn't they?
..The Great Seductor strikes again..

Offline Kaminari

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 06:17:24 AM »
For those interested in how such a pairing on the ETC works, Blackmoor on Dakkadakka explained in detail how the pairing between US and Germany went, including team champion (third post page 3 of the dakkadakka thread):

Quote
Before the pairing process begins, the team captain select one army to be the team "champion". The is hidden from your opponents and gets matched up against your opponent's champion. This is one way to add a bit of mystery to the final pairings because you do not know what teams they have still available.

[...]

Let's break this down, and you can see where it went wrong.

Pairing #1
The USA starts and put forth Jon and his Grey Knights. The Germans counter with Witchhunters. Not to bad of a match up for Jon, but he is at a disadvantage as you would expect and ends up losing 8-12. Not too bad for being our first out the door.

Pairing #2
Then the Germans put out there Grey Knights player and the US counters with Nick's (Darkwynn) Black Templar. This is where things get out of whack for the US. Nick has 2 foot slogging Terminator squads that deep-strike as well as drop pods against an anti-deep strike army. Not only that, but I have fought BT terminators with my GK terminators before and GK terminators will crush them. They pop the Sanctuary psychic power and the BT go last. Add in that they get 3 attacks each, and some hammerhands and you are in trouble. Not to mention that you are deepstriking so far away that they can shoot you down as you advance. Nick loses 6-14. This is hurts because we get to choose the match up and we should win those.

Pairing #3
We put out Orks, and they put out Chaos Space Marines. We lose 6-14.

Pairing #4
They put out their Blood Angels and we counter with IG. We lose a close one at 9-11. Another match that we get to pick the counter and can’t pull it out.

Pairing #5
We are down to just a few armies, and this is where things start to get bad. The USA put forward Eldar and they counter with Orks. I play foot Eldar myself and I know that Orks are a major pain, especially without Eldrad helping out. I struggle against them and it looks like so does Greg and he lost 16-4. This is hind sight, but maybe they should have thrown Ben out there. I will take a look at Greg’s numbers, but I think they days of the foot eldar build might be over.

Pairing #6
The Germans put out there Space Wolves, and the US counters with Ben’s Space Marines. US wins 20-0. Ben was a Space Wolf player so he knows that army well.

Pairing #7
The is done automatically after pairing #6 since there are only 2 armies left and it ends up being USA’s Tyranids vs. Mech Eldar and the Germans win 20-0

Pairing #8
The 2 Champions that were picked are Tony’s Space Wolves vs. the German IG player. Tony was dominating IG armies but he loses this one 2-18. Ouch!

The bad match ups at the bottom were because Team USA was waiting to counter the IG army with the Tyranid army which is build for that purpose. But the Germans did a great move with the IG army and moved it into the Champion slot almost guaranteeing that they would not have to face the Tyranids. So when the USA got to the last picks they were thinking that the Germans would have the IG army left, but they didn’t so the ‘Nids had to get crushed by the Mech Eldar.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at it some more at the start of the pairing #6 Ben has to make some interesting choices. The Germans put out the Space Wolves. He has 2 armies left, Tyranids and his Space Marines, and Germans have left either the Eldar or Imperial Guard.

So he knows that his Tryanids are next up so he has 2 choices: Nids vs SW or SM vs SW.
#1. Space Marines vs. Space Wolves and Tyranids vs (IG or Mech Eldar)
or
#2. Tyranids vs. Space Wolves and Space Marines vs (IG or Mech Eldar)

It looks like he thought that the Germans would not make the IG champions since they are a good put-forward army, and he thought that the Mech Eldar would be protected by being the champion so he selected #1. The problem with #1 is that it is very high risk/reward. If he guesses right then he has SM vs. SW, Tyranids vs. IG and SW vs. Eldar. Those are great matches for the USA. But what if he gets it wrong? Then he has what he got SM vs. SW, ‘Nids vs. Eldar, and SW vs. IG. I guess he is still not bad off since he does well against SW, and Tony is doing fine against IG, but the Nids will get murdered.

If he chooses #2 he ends up with either Nids vs. SW, SM vs. IG, and SW vs. Eldar, or what would have happened: Nids vs. SW, SM vs. Eldar, and SW vs IG. Not too bad.

It is just interesting to play Monday morning quarterback and look as the team selection process.

[...]

I hope Chtiofonce does not mind me swiping a couple of his pics.
He posted it on page #1, but you can see the rest of his pictures here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/104960327708584073250/40kETC2011#

Offline Massaen

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Re: European Team Championship 2011
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 06:21:24 AM »
Sorry but 8 codex still gives you some VERY effective builds from older dex... Grey knights, dark eldar, IG, wolves would be the first 4 you would pick... then after that its a case of building a team strategy - its another layer of Meta gaming which really mixes things up.

It would be a very boring event without the 8 codex limit... everyone would show up with wolves!


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