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Offline murgel

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2015, 05:34:43 AM »
agreed.

I used 6 including Exarch in a Falcon/Serpent often or on foot, for the 4th trough 6th editions. Currently I use 7 to 8 incl. Exarch on Foot mostly sometimes with a serpent.
The setup of our boards does help me however with much LOS cover.

Funny thing is that the numbers are ignored by so many (esp. tourny players) who normaly swear by numbers. Psychology is still superior to logic.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2015, 05:45:49 AM »
I'm struggling to follow the logic of the small units argument for either Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions, but especially relating to the former.  In the case of Howling Banshees, it only takes a few casualties to effectively neutralise the combat effectiveness of a squad of five, so that even if any survivors successfully engage an opposing squad they are still likely to lose by weight of numbers.  Striking Scorpions are more durable, so are less susceptible to this problem, but it can still happen.

I found that units of five or six Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions were too fragile once assaults from moving vehicles were disallowed, and this became even more of a problem once the rules changed to prevent assaulting out of closed top vehicles period.  Eldar assault Aspects being fielded on foot need numbers on their side, so that, in conjunction with cover, enough of them survive to remain a functional force when engaging opposing units in an assault.  To this end, I remain of the view that squads of ten are the best option.
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Offline murgel

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2015, 06:04:21 AM »
I'm struggling to follow the logic of the small units argument for either Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions, but especially relating to the former.  In the case of Howling Banshees, it only takes a few casualties to effectively neutralise the combat effectiveness of a squad of five, so that even if any survivors successfully engage an opposing squad they are still likely to lose by weight of numbers.  Striking Scorpions are more durable, so are less susceptible to this problem, but it can still happen.

I found that units of five or six Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions were too fragile once assaults from moving vehicles were disallowed, and this became even more of a problem once the rules changed to prevent assaulting out of closed top vehicles period.  Eldar assault Aspects being fielded on foot need numbers on their side, so that, in conjunction with cover, enough of them survive to remain a functional force when engaging opposing units in an assault.  To this end, I remain of the view that squads of ten are the best option.

Agreed, a full squad is preferable to a small one.

The small ones do still work IF the terrain is on their side (LOS cover).

The disability to assault out of our transport has always been the thing we had to work around and has always been the most ridiculous thing in my mind.
Anyway, with the speed on food we can now have both, banshees and scorpions are currently viable as foot options.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2015, 07:37:52 AM »
In the last dozen or so games that I've played the foot option has been far preferable to trying to fool around with the Wave Serpent. The first reason being that the speed of the armies has really increased. Cavalry, beasts, deep strike options (skyhammer) abound and defending your deployment zone can be a huge chore. Having a couple of foot-based assault units is a great answer, especially considering the proliferation of LOS blocking terrain meaning- if you face those threats in your backfield you are ready to go, and if you aren't facing those threats you can sprint between pieces of terrain and meet your opponent mid-field (especially if you bait them with mid-field objectives).

I've found that having 2 dedicated assault units in just your average pick-up game to be a great tool. One which is more defensive and heavy hitting (Wraithblades being my preference) and something lighter and faster such as Striking Scorpions though you can go with Banshees just as easily. Even in bad-matchups against say Wraiths or Thunderwolf Cav. you'll be able to tarpit them at the very least which can be huge because you don't want them chasing your fragile shooty units around.

While it is a great deal more complicated than the point-and-click options such as Jetbikes and the Wraithknight, I think its an essential skill for the long term, especially as your opponents become more familiar with your Eldar collection. Relying on a purely shooty list will eventually work against you with an observant opponent and the increased fragility of our primary shooting platforms.
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Offline sunstrider

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2015, 11:03:37 AM »
Perhaps my option is more suitable to the eldar allies subboard, but when it comes to eldar close combat for me, i defer immediately to harlequins.

My eldar force isnt TOO big at this point, but i have the cast of players formation from the harlequins codex with my craftworld eldar CAD and its proven to be pretty useful CC with the added bonuses of psychic powers from the shadowseer and precision fire from the deathjester.

To me, barring phoenix lords, craftworld eldar CC always seemed a bit subpar to me, so when the new harlequin codex came out, I turned to allies for those opponents that rush combat units down my throat.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 11:39:34 AM by sunstrider »

Offline Der-Al

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2015, 04:13:57 PM »
Personally I use a grotesquery (Dark Eldar Covens Formation), I just run it base with raider dedicated transports for each squad. It’s surprisingly good, infact I think grotesques are point for point one of the best close combat units in the game, just avoid instant death.

I hope it’s not too cheeky suggesting a Dark Wldar formation but as I use Craftworld Eldar for anti-tank in my dark eldar lists, I use Dark Eldar Coven formations (grotesquery mainly) in my CWE lists.

The Dark Artesian formation is quite good as well, it’s not as flexible or manoeuvrable as the grotesquery, but is better than most CWE CC options.     

Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2015, 05:46:38 PM »
Harlequin Jetbikes for me. They're good with either Shuriken or Haywire and of course you want those CC weapons. They will shoot everything from hordes to vehicles to elite infantry and will wipe off the rest in CC... if you manage to keep them around.

I only got a hand full of small games in since 7th is out but IMHO Jain Zar + a full unit of Shees in a Guardian Host list could travel quite a distance on foot each turn.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 05:48:10 PM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2015, 10:26:25 PM »
I'm struggling to follow the logic of the small units argument for either Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions, but especially relating to the former.  In the case of Howling Banshees, it only takes a few casualties to effectively neutralise the combat effectiveness of a squad of five, so that even if any survivors successfully engage an opposing squad they are still likely to lose by weight of numbers.  Striking Scorpions are more durable, so are less susceptible to this problem, but it can still happen.
Yes, it's much easier to neutralise a smaller squad, however for the same points as a larger squad you can have 2 squads, since the FOC does not really have a cap on how many units you can have this won't be a problem. Also Exarches are now very powerful and well worth their points, small units means you can have more exarches. A unit of 2 banshees + wounded exarch, can still take out a combat squad of marines.
While it's true scorpions survive longer than banshees (even when considering ppm) in general, but when they manage to cause fear, they are just as durable as the scorpions, due to not getting hit as often.

Quote
I found that units of five or six Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions were too fragile once assaults from moving vehicles were disallowed, and this became even more of a problem once the rules changed to prevent assaulting out of closed top vehicles period.  Eldar assault Aspects being fielded on foot need numbers on their side, so that, in conjunction with cover, enough of them survive to remain a functional force when engaging opposing units in an assault.  To this end, I remain of the view that squads of ten are the best option.
Assault units do not need a transport these days, with battlefocus eldar infantry is almost as fast as the vehicles, unless going flat out with the vehicle, and with matchless agility, only the 1-2" you can earn by spinning the vehicle differs.
If you expect your units to take attrition and try to make up for it by taking larger units you are not playing towards the eldars strengths.
As you used to say, eldar can't win a war of attrition, which is still true.
That's why I find it more useful to play proactively than reactively. If you play reactively you are also more prone to fall into psychological traps.

Deathstars aside most armies don't use units with more than 10 wounds in them, that's why I find it more useful with smaller units, also I would try to avoid pitting eldar CC specialists against opponents CC-specialists, because eldar simply won't do good in fair match-ups. Here is where I tend to take advantage of the eldar speed, by choosing my fights.
If I have two units, one shooty and one CC, and my opponent has the same, I'd much rather have my CC unit going up against the shooty opposing unit, and shoot their CC-unit, than throwing my CC-specialists into a brawl and let the shooty units have a firefight of attrition.



@Banshees vs Scorpions: If I had to choose only one unit of these I would take the scorpions every day, but when I'm allowed 2 units, I always take banshees over a second unit of scorpions.
The comparison 10 banshees with exarch and executioner comparred to 10 scorpions with exarch and claw, is not even remotely fair. You could actually buy the banshees a DE-raider for the points in between, or almost get 5 additional banshees.

Here's a more fair comparison:


(5x banshees(including Exarch+Executioner) vs MEQ = 4 kills.) x5 = 20 kills /425p (33 plain banshees will only achieve 17,6 kills)
(10x Scorpions (including Exarch+Claw) vs MEQ = 8.33 kills) x2 = 16,67 kills /420p (This includes the bonus attacks from stalker and the mandiblasters)

Survivability against bolters
Banshees = 90 hits (33 plain banshees: 99 hits)
Scorpions = 99 hits (25 plain scorpions: 112,5 hits)
This does not consider cover or overkills.

As for getting into CC, scorpion can usually infiltrate 6" closer, however they may not assault turn 1, so for turn 2 assaults, the effective range of scorpions and banshees are:
Banshees: 6+3+D6+6+3+2D6 = 30"
Scorpions: 6+6+D6+6+2D6 = 30"
(Counting the re-rollable dices as 4")

Multiplying the killyness and survivability together we get:
Banshees: 20*90= 1800
Scorpions: 16,67*99= 1650
1800/1650= 1,09
420/425 * 1.09 =1,078

That makes banshees 8% more powerful vs MEQ ;)
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2015, 05:28:42 AM »
Yes, it's much easier to neutralise a smaller squad, however for the same points as a larger squad you can have 2 squads, since the FOC does not really have a cap on how many units you can have this won't be a problem. Also Exarches are now very powerful and well worth their points, small units means you can have more exarches. A unit of 2 banshees + wounded exarch, can still take out a combat squad of marines.
While it's true scorpions survive longer than banshees (even when considering ppm) in general, but when they manage to cause fear, they are just as durable as the scorpions, due to not getting hit as often.

The point about Exarchs is a good one.  I'd have to be persuaded that this approach works against a wider range of armies and units than Marine combat squads though.  In addition, it still strikes me that these small units would only be able to wipe out one opposing unit before being annihilated themselves, and that's not a fate I'd like to befall any of my Eldar assault units after just one assault engagement.

It's good to see that there's some variety out there though.  It would be deadly dull if everyone played the same way.  It's also clear to see that smaller units are more viable than they used to be, even though they would not be my preference.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2015, 06:55:52 AM »
@Der-Al- Yes, the Grotesquerie is an absolutle beast of a formation. Grotesques in general are absolute A+ assault unit. I've seen a lot of love given to the Dark Artisan as well, but personally I'm not a fan. It seems just to easy to isolate after deepstrike… perhaps with additional deepstrikers, or with a couple of ultra-fast units assault units like Reavers bursting ahead to support it. Speaking of which, I actually highly rate Reavers as an allied assault unit. With hit and run they are much easier to use than Shining Spears though rending is not as reliable as AP3 lances. Nevertheless with combat drugs, cluster caltrops and bladevanes they can brutal.

@Katamari- Hey bud long time no see. Yeah I've heard great things about the Harlie jetbikes. Shuriken Cannons and Zephyr-Blades seem the way to go, with mirage launchers and LOS terrain to help get them into combat. I've been thinking of converting up some Corsair equivalents for awhile now, but wasn't sure if it was worth the investment. How survivable and how successful have they been for you?
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2015, 12:14:25 PM »
Nice discussion!
Fenris, a question, if you please! :)
You say you'd take Scorpions over Banshees were you only allowed one CC unit.
What would you do in an Aspect host formaiton?
I'm currently struggling with deciding how to build a CC-oriented Aspect host formation for the +1 WS bonus.
I want to use a unit of Shining Spears, simply because I love the concept and they work well for me.
I'm letting an Autarch and a Farseer ride along with that unit for increased awesomeness.
That means I have two spots left for other CC units. The question then is, would you take one Banshee unit and one Scorpion unit (since you're allowed more than one unit), or two Banshee units?
Also, and most importantly - would you sacrifice a lot of firepower to field 10 in each unit, or would you take 5-man squads so you didn't have to sacrifice firepower (what I need to sacrifice is War Walkers and Dire Avengers, which also means I lose the Shrine bonuses). If you could make it work with one unit of 10 models and one of 5, how would you allocate the numbers? 10 Banshees and 5 Scorps or the other way around?
Also, in case you take 2 5-man units to keep the point costs down, would you take one of each aspect, or two Banshee units or two Scorpion units.
Furthermore, when you take 2 5-man units over 1 10 man unit because of the MSU principle, I'm assuming you have the two smaller units work together to compensate for being few? That is, you charge the same target with both squads (assuming one can't handle it on its own ofc), effectively working as a 10 man unit?

Even though I directed my questions at Fenris, anyone's opinions will be highly valued.
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Offline Katamari Damacy

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2015, 12:43:19 PM »
@Katamari- Hey bud long time no see. Yeah I've heard great things about the Harlie jetbikes. Shuriken Cannons and Zephyr-Blades seem the way to go, with mirage launchers and LOS terrain to help get them into combat. I've been thinking of converting up some Corsair equivalents for awhile now, but wasn't sure if it was worth the investment. How survivable and how successful have they been for you?

Hey there  :D, I really only played like three or so games vs Orks and Chaos Space Marines, these aren't exactly top tier armies atm from what i can tell but nontheless the bikes proved their worth. I run two units, 4x Shuriken + Blades and 4x Haywire + Blades. Like I've said, these guys destroyed Land Raiders, Vindicators, Ork Hordes and CSM Terminators alike. They're super expensive but they're super good at whatever they do.

Jetbike antics, Mirage Launchers and Harlequin greatness help the unit stay alive but they benefit greatly from other stuff that is a high-priority threat (read: the Wraithknight).

Corsairs should get an updated army list in the new Doom of Myrmeara (sp?) book from FW. They have conversion kits on their site which contain Haywire Cannons  ;)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 12:44:26 PM by Katamari Damacy »
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Offline murgel

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2015, 12:46:00 PM »
Please remember: this might not be competitive.

If I were to make such a Formation my approach would be along Spears+Exarch and scorpions(6-8 incl. Exarch) plus a similar banshee squad.
The points saved by the under size can go to the WWs or the Avengers.
Personally ever since the speed increase on foot, I rarely do banshees in a falcon so the 6 girls became 8 (incl) for me, 10 if I have points. Scorpions work really well 6 men up IF it is not against massive ork/nid units.
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Offline Der-Al

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2015, 03:49:42 PM »
@Cav, yes reavers are a solid CC unit and I use them a lot in my dark eldar lists. But I’ve found that a single unit of reavers are too easy to mitigate and think that in a dark eldar list you really need two units of 6 for them to be really effective (I run dual CAD for fast attack goodness), don’t get me wrong one unit of 6 will do a number against most armies (not tau). Although that said a single unit in an already bike heavy Eldar list, no scratch that, a single reaver unit in most eldar lists wouldn’t be high on the target priority list and would therefore probably work better than a single unit in a Dark Eldar list.

The only issue with using reavers as a CC unit in eldar list is having to pay the CAD or allied detachment tax of HQ and troops, were as the grotesquery is more or less tax free. The only issues with grotesquery is the mono pose models (and the price) but it’s easy to get round this by kit bashing rat ogres / minotaurs or my personal favourite (as they barely need any kit bashing) crypt horrors.       
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 03:50:53 PM by Der-Al »

Offline Fenris

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #74 on: December 1, 2015, 03:03:54 AM »
@Irisado:
 I'm fine with a unit of 5 banshees gets killed after they have killed a unit of double their point cost, such as 10 marines. Marines can't be scared or run down though, so the combet will probably take a while, and hopefully ends on an even number of assault phases ;)

With MSU-lists it's very important to draw up imaginary lines with threat range, from all units, and make sure they cover eachother when needed. This means when 5 banshees win combat against 10 marines the remaining banshees should be working as a bait or as one of many threats.
 For example you might have some dark reapers covering a firing lane where a unit of marines will have to expose themselves into if they want to get into rapid fire range to shoot the banshees.
 Another example would be hawks jumping down on an objective behind enemy lines the same turn the banshees have ended their combat, and if the hawks are left alone they will assault a valuable vehicle such as a land raider, hence creating multiple threats forcing the opponent into difficult decisions.

I can see value in a unit mowing down opposing units like juggernauts, however I reserve these strategies to more deathstar type of units. Banshees and scorpions are not numerous or durable enough for that role IMHO, while shining spears OTOH might be.
Also shining spears are more synergy with autarch or farseer on bike, since the banshees gets slowed down, and the scorpions loose their shadowstrike with IC's, that are not their PL, attached.


@Iluvhir Strafermeyer:
I would prefer:
5x Shining Spears
9x Striking Scorpions
5x Howling Banshees
All with exarches and AP-low CCW.

The reason I prefer taking a large unit of scorpions is due to the expensive claw that need s some extra protection, also if only half the unit can take cover it's still good, while the banshees wouldn't do so well if there were a couple of models in the open when hugging LoS-blocking terrain.

However if you didn't plan to include either Scorpions or Banshees, you might as well just stick the Spears in a ranged aspecthost, since they do have ranged weaponry too.
Maybe take some more windriders, to give the Farseer and the Autarch somewhere else to hide, if they don't need or want to join up with the Shining Spears everytime.

If you do decide to take 2 small units of Scorpions and Banshees, and consider scrounging for points in the shooty units, I would probably drop the weapons that has the least synergy. For example weapons on a Falcon(not in squadron), Wave Serpent, war walker(not in squadron) or Vyper(not in squadron).

In your list (if I remember correctly) the DA-shrine and the falcon cloudstrike would not be the first place I would look for points, except for possible upgrades.
Also if I remember correctly you have 3x war walkers with all BL's, I'd rather keep that 3rd walker than having 4-5 more scorpions.

I'd rather have one of each unit, than 3 of the same, this is more a psychological thing as I have faith in my ability to know all three units special rules better than my opponent.
3 of the same unit of course gives you more redundancy, but less tactical options. In large encounters of 2000p and above I would of course consider more redundancy, than in 1500p and below.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #75 on: December 1, 2015, 05:49:07 AM »
For me the problem is points. I already have a list, in which I basically want to swap one unit of Warp Spiders (have 2x5) for another CC unit (Banshees or Scorps). I can take 7 Banshees (including an Executioner Exarch) for (roughly) the same point cost as 5 Spiders. To take the minimal number of Scorpions with a Claw Exarch, I need to free up 20 points, either by reducing my Reaper squads (I run 3x5 Reapers in Cloudstriking Falcons) or by reducing vehicle upgrades on the Falcon squadron. I don't think this thread is a suitable place to link a list, but you can find it here:
2000p Eldar list - need advice for a few tweaks

In that list my options for that particular Aspect host formation are:
1) 5 Spears, 2x5 Spiders (+1 BS) (this is my original setup that I want to modify to include one more CC unit)
2) 5 Spears, 7 Banshees, 5 Spiders (+1 WS)
3) 5 Spears, 5 Scorpions, 5 Spiders (+1 WS)

If you could settle that for me, it would be nice. I play against Marines and Tau at the moment.

I'm also curious how you see a 5-man Banshee squad beating 10 Marines. On the charge they take down 4 marines on average. 6 marines will remain, on an average. Between them they kill a Banshee, maybe even two. They do lose the combat, ofc, but if they break and you catch them, nothing really happens as you are aware. In the next turn, you have 3-4 Banshees, with only 2 attacks each. and 6 Marines left. It's not starting to look good for the Banshees.
If you cast Doom on the Marines, maybe it will work. Otherwise I think the Banshees will die.
This isn't a problem for me as my opponent always uses Combat squads. Still, would be interesting to see how you can get that to work. :P
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #76 on: December 1, 2015, 06:02:12 AM »
Fenris: Previously, you were referring to using small squads of Howling Banshees to wipe out combat squads of Marines, which is feasible.  Wiping out a squad of ten Marines using only five Howling Banshees is a stretch at best though.  Also, as you alluded to, a combat against a larger squad of Marines, or indeed a large squad in any durable army, is going to become protracted for Howling Banshees, and they are likely to either be wiped out or reduced to very few models if they do manage to win.

As a result of all of this, I do not advocate assaulting units of ten Marines or similar units with a squad of five Howling Banshees.  The only way you're going to be successful with this tactic is to soften up the opposing unit first with fire power, so that you can fight them on equal terms, or even outnumber them.  Even in this scenario, keeping a small unit of Howling Banshees alive after that first assault can still be tricky.
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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #77 on: December 1, 2015, 07:22:51 AM »
@Fenris- I get your philosophy of MSU Fenris (I'm employing it myself in part throughout my army after years of trepidation and to great success), but I'm with Irisado on the Banshees. They just don't have enough punch to make a MSU approach work against a unit of 10 Marines and thats assuming they don't take any wounds before reaching combat.

If you are thinking of sending in Scorpions first against the target unit, then the Banshees as a finisher I think it could work. I wish Ibushi were around right now because he's been using a crazy close-combat themed army and taking it to tournaments and doing work.

Have you had any game experience with the 5-man unit of Banshees Fenris? I'm skeptical of it in theory but if you've had success with it on the tabletop I'm definitely intrigued. Let me know!
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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #78 on: December 1, 2015, 01:35:34 PM »
@Irisado: Maybe I wasn't clear but I meant the already damaged unit of banshees containing a wounded exarch and 2 other banshees, would be enough to take out a combat squad.

Here is a rundown of 5x Banshees(including exarch with executioner) vs 10 Tactical Marines:

First round of combat
5x banshees kills 4(4) marines.
6x Marines hit back killing 1(1) banshee(or wounding the exarch)

Second round
4x Banshees kills 2(2.22) Marines (3(2.67) if the exarch takes a wound in round 1)
4x Marines hit back killing 1(0.67) Banshee(or the exarch)

Third Round
3x Banshees kills 2(1.78) Marines
2x Marines kills 0 (0.33) Banshees

Fourth Round
Banshees kills the remaining 2(1.78) marines.

Banshees only suffered 2 wounds.

@Cavalier:

I don't have lots and lots of experience with banshees in 7th ed, however I've tried both the big unit of 10 and the smaller of 5, and the big unit got a lot more attention, and was shot to pieces as soon as they showed up (and this was against AM and CSM).
The smaller unit was often ignored, but received some attrition, however they couldn't do much against the wraiths or centurions they were forced into CC with. However their acrobatics have been useful for grabbing objectives.
I had some success with the small unit of banshes against AM/SM, they killed a 7-man unit of marines, and then assisted the 3 scorpions (including clawed exarch) in killing a unit of 10 marines, scorpions died but the banshees went on and with some help from Swooping Hawks managed to destroy a chimera sitting on an important objective.
I think I had some DE-Reavers+ farseer in the same battle taking care of yet another unit of marines nearby.

Yes, I usually send in the Scorpions first, it allows the banshees to take cover behind them if needed, but it also makes them psychologically considered as a lesser threat.
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Re: Eldar Close-Combat
« Reply #79 on: December 2, 2015, 05:59:52 AM »
I think that it would be more representative to include a Marine sergeant equipped with a power weapon or fist or whatever they are most commonly armed with these days, otherwise the maths is skewed somewhat.

I'll admit I'm surprised by the numbers, however, there are still two things to note.  First, the remaining three Banshees are likely to be wiped out by support fire after this combat, and second a squad of five is unlikely to reach combat fully intact.  That said, you'd ideally soften up the Marines before engaging them in an assault, so that works both ways.
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