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Offline 007

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Piranha problems
« on: September 17, 2009, 01:39:38 PM »
Hi all.  I love the idea behind the piranha fast attack choice.  They are fast, equipt, and can block off whole areas of the board. 

However, with those stupid gun drones on the sides, the hemorage kill points.  What are your thoughts?

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2009, 02:35:16 PM »
Well, first off, it is important to note that they are only losing you those kill points on 1/3 of the missions you play, on average.

Beyond that, here are some suggestions:

1) Run your Piranhas in teams of 2-3. This forces all the drones to form one large group, and hence give up proportionally fewer kill points. You lose some flexibility/survivability with the Piranhas, though.

2) Don't disembark drones in Kill Point missions. Sounds obvious, I know, but it is still important. They don't count for a kill point unless they die after disembarking.

3) Disembark them early and hide them somewhere out of the way. Drones are often in small, 2-4 drone units, so this shouldn't be hard. Their target priority is also low enough that your opponent likely won't bother with them.

I run Piranhas all the time, and the drone kill points were only occasionally a problem. If you play with your head, you should be okay.

Offline 007

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2009, 04:42:02 PM »
Quote
2) Don't disembark drones in Kill Point missions. Sounds obvious, I know, but it is still important. They don't count for a kill point unless they die after disembarking.

Thats the problem.  Piranhas are typically expendable and are lightly armored thus when  they die, the enemy will either assault the drones + the piranha unit or just shoot the drones up with stray fire.

Offline SwampyTurtle

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2009, 04:43:16 PM »
Quote
2) Don't disembark drones in Kill Point missions. Sounds obvious, I know, but it is still important. They don't count for a kill point unless they die after disembarking.

Thats the problem.  Piranhas are typically expendable and are lightly armored thus when  they die, the enemy will either assault the drones + the piranha unit or just shoot the drones up with stray fire.

If you dont disembark them, they still count as 1 KP not 3 ....


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Offline 007

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2009, 06:09:37 PM »
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If you dont disembark them, they still count as 1 KP not 3 ....

What?  where does it say that?

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 06:12:05 PM »

They don't count for a kill point unless they die after disembarking.


Right there ^


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Offline Sayt

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 09:59:40 PM »
1 squadron of Piranhas never cedes more than 2KP.

And at any rate, just drop the drones at the start of the game, and ride them out of LOS,

Offline Locke

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 10:29:05 PM »
Those drones do become a prime target through in KP missions since they're such EASY kp. It doesn't take much to get rid of them, so get them hidden well. If possible (and you have foreknowledge of the board xD) Get 4 pieces of impassable terrain and make a box with no LOS, that can't be gotten into except by jump packs. Then jump in. :D.
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Offline 007

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 02:24:52 AM »
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1 squadron of Piranhas never cedes more than 2KP.

Are you sure?  I think its like this:

1 piranhas never cedes more than 2 KPs.  But a squadron of 5 will create 5 seperate gun drone squads and yield 10 KPs.  WHOA!!!


Offline Rudkin

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2009, 02:36:23 AM »
Nope! Drones from a squadron of vehicles creates one large unit (so only 1 KP). Additionally, squadrons only give up a Kill Point if they are all destroyed (and then they only give up 1).

So a squadron of 5 Piranhas go tearing up the board. One of them is Immobilized (and thus destroyed, as per the squadron rules). The drones from that Piranha disembark. Whenever any drones in a squadron disembark, they all disembark together and form one large unit (in this case a unit of 10 drones, provided the two disembarking from the downed Piranha don't die; otherwise the unit will only be 8-9).

Any way you slice it, it's still only 2 Kill Points. And as an interesting (but pretty obvious) note, a unit of 10 Gun Drones is just as survivable (if not more so because of their assault move and higher Initiative) than a unit of 10 Fire Warriors (without Shas'ui). They're also statistically more accurate, because of their twin-linked weapons... but that's beside the point.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2009, 09:15:52 AM »
And as an interesting (but pretty obvious) note, a unit of 10 Gun Drones is just as survivable (if not more so because of their assault move and higher Initiative) than a unit of 10 Fire Warriors (without Shas'ui).

Which is a fancy way of saying 'not very survivable at all'.

Quote
They're also statistically more accurate, because of their twin-linked weapons... but that's beside the point.

...and have half the rate of fire, which sort of evens it all out.

Don't go using Drones in any offensive capacity in a Kill Point game, no matter how many you happen to have. The only time Piranha Drones should be fighting stuff in a KP game is if they are forced to. Now, if we're playing objectives, disembark and cause mayhem all you want.

Offline Gentleman Fate

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2009, 02:55:28 PM »
Dude, even in KP a 10-man squad of Drones is pretty good. Spare them a light and they can do amazing things. They are fast moving, can hide from enemy fire, have a relatively small profile, are are small threat to enemy tanks, can pin, etc.
Basically, if you get them in cover they can be pretty resilient, and with their ability to move in the assault phase they shouldn't have a problem doing so.
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"ok, my boys are disembarking now, and since i have no shooting, theyr gonna run then assault" me-"Umm... you went flat out, AND you aren't Fleet" him-"But this is a trukk and these are boyz. they can do it because they believe they can do it" me-"...Right." -Kabal

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2009, 04:14:20 PM »
Dude, even in KP a 10-man squad of Drones is pretty good. Spare them a light and they can do amazing things. They are fast moving, can hide from enemy fire, have a relatively small profile, are are small threat to enemy tanks, can pin, etc.
Basically, if you get them in cover they can be pretty resilient, and with their ability to move in the assault phase they shouldn't have a problem doing so.

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree, here, since I find 10 Gun Drones to be very *ineffective* at all of the things you mention. Well, except perhaps 'fast moving' (though even then they are slower than most other units in the Jump Infantry class).

T3 4+ with horrible assault stats do not make a durable unit, and certainly not if you are jumping them into cover or, God forbid, into and out of cover. Dangerous terrain tests alone will whittle the unit down fast enough.

I suppose, were we to imagine Gun Drones in a vacuum and not compare them with units that fullfill comparable roles in other armies, we could call them 'pretty good'. As soon as we *do* compare them to just about anything that performs similar tasks in other armies (or, heck, even other Tau units), it becomes obvious that they are rather poor. The only reason I ever take them is when they come for free on other vehicles (such as Piranha).

When I am using free Gun Drones, I do not fool myself into thinking they are somehow dangerous, but rather that they do a fairly decent job of being annoying enough to not be ignored, but not so annoying that the enemy dedicates attention to killing them. If your drones kill something in the game, consider yourself very lucky (I know I do). My primary goal for them is to have them die in a fashion useful to my goals. In that particular niche they excel, but only because I got them for free.     

Offline Gentleman Fate

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2009, 08:46:27 PM »
Quote
T3 4+ with horrible assault stats do not make a durable unit, and certainly not if you are jumping them into cover or, God forbid, into and out of cover. Dangerous terrain tests alone will whittle the unit down fast enough.
Note that we can take their assault move and "walk" them into cover; jump infantry can choose to move normally. This is far safer if we are nearer to the cover.
Against MEQs:
To hit- about 54%
To wound- about 35%
Marine Save- about 11%
Ten Drones- 1.1 (Mostly one) Dead Marines, Pinning test, they'll likely pass.

Compare to a 10-man FoF squad:
To hit- 50%
To wound- about 33%
To kill- about 11%
20 shots- 2.2 (Mostly two) Dead Marines, No test.

Drones with one 'light (which is actually a good use, as it increases their power exponentially):
To hit- 75%
To wound- 49.5%
To kill- about 16%
Ten Drones- 1.6 (more often two than one) Dead Marines, Pinning Test, they'll likely pass.

To be fair, FoF team with one 'light:
To hit- 66%
To wound- 44%
To kill- about 15%
20 shots- 3 dead Marines, Morale check, likely pass.

On offense, an FoF team deals more damage easily, doubling the Drones in kills. But what about defensive capabilities? Mathhammer breaks down more here, but we can tell quite a few things anyways.
At 12", Fire Warriors are likely to get assaulted. Even using a DF or free drones as a shield for them, the can still be hit with your opponent's entire arsenal of shots (at 12" he could shoot heavies AND rapidfire). As you've said multiple times, T3 4+ save isn't that great.
Against a squad of 9 bolters and one bolt pistol (a rarity, but still, it simplifies it):
To hit- 66%
To wound- 44%
Save- 22%
19 shots- 4 die, morale test, will probably fail due to terrible Ld.

The Drones however, have 18" range assault weapons and an assault jump. They can get out of LOS, into cover, farther away, or, in extreme cases, assault. They can also sacrifice themselves for portable cover/ assault shields.
In the first, they shall sustain little to no damage.
In the second, they sustain less damage against nearby heavy weapons, but this is only really useful if you have pinned the infantry nearby.
In the third, you can move out of the assault range of all units except for the oddities like Chaos Spawn. You are out of the rapidfire range of all units but jump infantry. If your opponent chooses to fire, they do not move (for stationary max range) and only deal two casualties.
In the final, you assault. Against MEQs, you strike simultaneously:
Drones-
To hit- 50%
To wound- 16%
To kill- about 5%
20 attacks on the charge- 1 dies
Marines
To hit- 66%
To wound- 44%
To kill- 22%
11 attacks (base plus Sarge, assuming a full unit)- about 2.5 (more two then three). The Drones will likely fall back, w/ a 50% chance of winning the Sweeping Advance. The results are
a) They stay in combat. Annoy, Annoy, Annoy.
b) They break combat. One Marine less, the Marines run towards your board edge (useful if they are on a back objective defending).
c) Your drones die. Well what did you expect, you assaulted with Tau?

The Drones can also sacrifice themselves. Didn't wipe those assault termies? Crisis team in danger of assault? Sternguard with low AP bolters bearing down on your squad? Drones to the rescue! Your Drones can form a mighty wall of cover save or assault buff, protecting your more important units from danger, conserving your overall firepower, and making your opponent waste military muscle.

So in conclusion, are drones more killy then FWs? No.
But they avoid putting all your eggs in one basket, and give you significantly more flexibility.
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"ok, my boys are disembarking now, and since i have no shooting, theyr gonna run then assault" me-"Umm... you went flat out, AND you aren't Fleet" him-"But this is a trukk and these are boyz. they can do it because they believe they can do it" me-"...Right." -Kabal

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 12:43:15 PM »
You are sort of agreeing with me, here, believe it or not.

Drones afford flexibility, but that's *it*. They are not offensively dangerous. They are not defensively durable. They are not able to claim objectives. They cannot reliably kill tanks. All they *can* do is back up the stuff the rest of your army *is doing*. It should also be noted that 4-6 Drones can do as well as 10 for most of these purposes, since you don't really need them to kill things so much as you need them to get in the way.

Piranhas, in this instance, afford you with the best ability to get drones for free (which is the *only* way I feel they are worth taking) and, in the bargain, get a unit that can actually do a specific job pretty well.

Also (and this is not specifically meant for you, true, though you drew my attention to it with your analysis above), limiting our tactical imagination to the prospect of facing Marines and, what's more, Marines in a good firing solution, is ignoring two important factors:

1) Not all enemies play like Marines.
2) Not all Marine opponents let you pound their troops.

When I consider the threat (or even use) constituted by large drone squadrons against the mechanized marine force I, myself, use, they quickly become a tactical non-entity. If they are able to get a full volley at my tactical squads, then shame on me--I'm playing like a rube (or, I suppose, my opponent is playing *very* well). Furthermore, when you stack large drone units like that one against Mech Eldar, Imperial Guard, or (god forbid) Orks, their realistic capabilities rapidly dimish. The Eldar are too maneuverable to be significantly inconvenienced, the IG have sufficient firepower in sufficient quantities to shoot them off the board without trouble, and the Orks just don't care what they do, period, since *everything* they have will kill them in any phase of the game you care to mention, and in some instances their deaths will actually *help* the Ork advance.

Now, don't get me wrong--I *love* my free gun drones--but let us not overstate their uses. They are supporting cast with moderate harrassment capacity. Piranhas are their best delivery vehicle, but take particular care to deliver them into actually *useful* situations, rather than to an ignominious death. Keep them close to your main army, dispose of them to delay threats to you, and waste as few resources as you can upon them. To this end, I recommend multiple small teams of drones, rather than one large one.   

Offline Gentleman Fate

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »
Oh,  I agree you shouldn't pay for drones very often, but when they come with Piranha squadrons they are often incredibly useful, protecting your units, annoying other enemies.
I treat them less as a unit than as a tool; how can their presence benefit the army? Using the free units as a impromptu shield is a decent idea.
"If you were smart you would have rolled a six."
- Spencer Young, God amongst men.

"ok, my boys are disembarking now, and since i have no shooting, theyr gonna run then assault" me-"Umm... you went flat out, AND you aren't Fleet" him-"But this is a trukk and these are boyz. they can do it because they believe they can do it" me-"...Right." -Kabal

It's cool to shoot 2 plasma cannons.....INTO YOUR PLAGUEMARINES.

Offline Meatwad

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2009, 02:15:17 AM »
Sigh... GUYS! really?

Gun drones that detach from vehicles dont count as victory points if they are killed. jeez look up the tau faq

a squad of piranhas will always be 1 kp, the drones are extra
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Offline Sayt

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2009, 02:41:09 AM »
Go read again, carefully.

Quote
Disengaged drones have no effect on how many viictory points...

Victory points.  Not Kill points, Victory points.

Offline Gentleman Fate

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2009, 06:29:42 AM »
Seconded.
If they didn't count as KP, they'd be real cheap.
I'm glad KP makes you pay for having an over-segmented army; Imagine skimmer spam with drones in VP!
"If you were smart you would have rolled a six."
- Spencer Young, God amongst men.

"ok, my boys are disembarking now, and since i have no shooting, theyr gonna run then assault" me-"Umm... you went flat out, AND you aren't Fleet" him-"But this is a trukk and these are boyz. they can do it because they believe they can do it" me-"...Right." -Kabal

It's cool to shoot 2 plasma cannons.....INTO YOUR PLAGUEMARINES.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Piranha problems
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2009, 11:16:46 AM »
I'm glad KP makes you pay for having an over-segmented army; Imagine skimmer spam with drones in VP!

Ahhhh...4th Edition, the Tau Golden Age. Those were good days.

 


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