Topic: So, new unit concepts

[Foxfire]

Now, I know these things pop up from time to time, but being in bed or on the verge of sleep for hours on end as I have been for the past few days, I've been thinking a lot about warhammer (not sure why), and one element of it that I've been missing: the old feel for the Necron Raiders, back when Necrons were heavy and terminatoresque, rather than with a regal, almost Egyptian flair.  Anyway, here's an idea from just a little bit ago while I was semi-napping.

Hunter-Killer Squad
240 pts total
Inspiration: It's occurred to me that Necrons, as supremely logical beings, would be able to see the advantages of varied squads; that is to say, mixing soldiers with different strengths into one another so that they didn't all die when pressed with an unfavorable situation.  The Hunter-Killer Squad is a team comprised of Necron types which work together to clear bunkered-down enemies from heavy cover.
Unit Composition: 8 Flayed Ones, 2 Tomb Guard, 2 Crypt Creepers
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: All members receive Move Through Cover, Infiltrate, and Scout.
Flayed Ones: As detailed in codex.
Tomb Guard: A smaller version of the Tomb Spyder designed to assist mobile elements of the army on the front line.  It functions as a Tomb Spyder in every way, save that it has -1 S, -1 T, -1 A, and no longer counts as a monstrous creature (though due to its strength it still ignores armor saves in the way Broodlord's used to, via monstrous physical strength).  Also, its Artificier ability has changed.  A Tomb Guard can produce one unit of Scarabs per game (they receive a wound as usual if they roll a 1).  These Scarabs are designed to perform repairs on the Tomb Guard's external armor, and thus cannot attack, though they can still be attacked.  As long as they are in base to base contact with the Tomb Guard, it receives Feel No Pain.  Lastly, Tomb Guard are not fearless unless their unit breaks from combat, at which point they will remain locked in melee and permit the rest of the unit to escape.
Crypt Creeper: Crypt Creepers are nine-foot tall, gangly monstrosities designed to cross terrain quickly and catch fleeing prey.  They use all four limbs to propel themselves over broken ground, and so attack with a projectile weapon slung under their chests.  Acidic spray fires in a gout from this fell device, coating the area before them in steaming spume.  The Creeper Breath weapon uses a strength 6 template with ap 4.  Alternatively, this can be fired as an explosive, pressurized capsule, becoming a strength 6 ap 4 assault 1 18' blast weapon which ignores cover.  Otherwise, Crypt Creepers have the same statline as a Wraith, but -2 I, and their save is not invulnerable.
Options: As detailed in codex for Flayed Ones and Tomb Guards (under the Tomb Spyder entry).  Crypt Creepers can be upgraded with Disruption Fields for 4 pts a piece.
Character: One Flayed One may be replaced with a Pariah Team Leader for +30 pts.  The Pariah receives the units' special rules, and provides all of the special rules typical of the Pariah, which includes making the unit Fearless.  It also receives +1 A.


So, while I like the idea of the Hunter-Killer varied unit, I find it entirely justifiable that some people would want to keep Necrons as they are: very simplistic squad by squad, in which case I'd break the three individual model types down more like this.


Creepers
Elite Unit Choice
Unit Composition: 3-5 Creepers
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Necrons, Infiltrate, Scout, Move Through Cover, Fleet of Foot, Shadowcloak (count as being in Nightfight rules, cut result in half if actually in Nightfight), Acid Fume (count as having frag grenades in close combat)

Tomb Guard
HQ Retinue
Unit Composition: 1-3 Guards
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Count as retinue for a Necron Lord.  Monstrous Strength (ignore armor saves)


Feedback on these, as well as suggestions of your own are welcome.


Edits/Addendums
Creepers are now listed as 50 points per model
Creepers now count as having frag grenades
Tomb Guard are downgraded from monstrous creatures but their attack ignores armor
Tomb Guards are now listed as 50 points per model

[NecronCell2131]

Creepers
Elite Unit Choice
Unit Composition: 3-5 Creepers
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Necrons, Infiltrate, Scout, Move Through Cover, Fleet of Foot, Shadowcloak (count as being in Nightfight rules, cut result in half if actually in Nightfight)

Tomb Guard
HQ Retinue
Unit Composition: 1-3 Guards
Unit Type: Infantry
Special Rules: Count as retinue for a Necron Lord.



Feedback on these, as well as suggestions of your own are welcome.

Creepers i like the shadow cloak idea. How many points are they going to be? Also why is the squad so small? I would suggest unit 3-10.

Tomb guard have the same problem with being a bit to small since pretty much every other retinue in the game can go up to 10 i dont see why they should be 1-3. (Hive tyrant guard are different since they are with a monstrous creature having a unit of 10 with the tyrant would never see it die)

[Foxfire]

Well, the Creepers are probably more expensive than Wraiths, given their protection from ranged fire and the fact that they'll usually be in cover (not to mention the almost identical statline).  Creepers would probably need to be around 50 points, which contributed to my decision to give them a small unit size.  I mean, would you want 10 of these things for 500 points?  I submit that the Wraiths may be a little overpointed, meaning that if we get a new codex soon these guys might clock in at a lower cost when compared to other entries, but as the Necron codex stands right now I figure a Creeper would be anywhere from 45-55 points.  Either way, I didn't see them moving around in big groups anyway, and given how hard they are to hit, I don't think they need too many to be survivable.  Besides which point, if you could grab like 20 of them, I think ranged armies would just start hating Necrons viciously.  After all, that would be around 1000 points that they can't shoot at with Infiltrate and all kinds of movement enhancements.  Not fun.  I'm glad to hear that you like them, though!

As for Tomb Guard, you might be right about that one, but recall that they are monstrous creatures (though probably the smallest ones in the game...I might consider giving them power weapons instead of MC status by virtue of "monstrous strength" the way GW gave it to Broodlords back in the day...not broken since they only get one attack) with two wounds and FNP, so the Lord shouldn't have too many lest he himself wind up being too powerful.  The one thing I do want to do is figure out a way to let the Lord do more without having to join other units, since a retinue would render Veil of Darkness, Gaze of Flame, Chronometron, Lightning Field, and maybe one or two others useless for the rest of the army.  The Lord would--with these guys attached to him--definitely become more of a ranged supporter, since he'd lose the ability to teleport (Tomb Guard aren't Necrons) and he couldn't join units.  Hm.  You know, in light of the fact that he'll definitely be moving as infantry for the rest of the game, maybe 1-5 would be more sensible, acknowledging the fact that he's going to end up heavily fired on or in thick melee for certain depending on the opponent.

Thanks for the replies, NC!  I had begun to think that this thread would simply fade away.

[NecronCell2131]

Hey you mind doing up a stat line for both so i can get a proper take on what these guys are capable of?

 50 points might be a bit much for the Tomb guard especially if you decide to give them only 1 attack. They may ignore armor saves but most retinues have power weapons like Honor guard have 4s across the board with 2+1 bolt pistol and power weapon attacks with a 2+ save for only 35 points. Unless the TOmb guards stat line is much different then i am thinking they should be the same as an assault terminator in points.

 With Tomb guard not being necrons it just cuts down on the tactics and probability of people actually taking them. As cool as the feel no pain idea is i would suggest just getting rid of it and staying with WBB besides do you really wanna give up the fact we are the last codex to not have feel no pain, the special rule that isnt special anymore because every codex has several units with it. 

 Show the stat line you are thinking of and then i can make proper assumptions 

 Creepers shadow field is a nice protection but with infiltrate and scout they will be really close to the enemy where rapid fire will come into play and rolling under 4 with 2 dice is most likely not going to happen. Again the weapons they carry and stats plus the only 3+ armor doesnt warrant them to be more expensive then wraiths. I doubt i would ever take them even if its the only way for me to get flamer types.

 

[Foxfire]

I can't, given that they are virtually the same as existing units.  If you have the Necron codex, it's easy to see.  Creepers are Wraiths at I4, with only a standard save.  Tomb Guard are Spyders -1 S, -1 T, -1 A. 

You may also be right about Tomb Guard...in my zeal to ensure they weren't overpowered I may have forgotten that they don't actually do that much other than die for other units.  Given that, even 30 points might be more acceptable.  As for Tomb Guard, they are effectively small Tomb Spyders, the FNP is not there to say that they receive WBB but to make them that much harder to kill.  It doesn't have the restrictions of WBB, but it also doesn't have the cop-outs (Res Orb, Monolith rerolls). 

As for Creepers, I just don't share your feeling.  They get right up close to the enemy, and they ignore cover, which is their big sell.  The Shadowcloak ability is not to make them unshootable but to ensure that they don't get picked off at range by things they can't attack in return.  And as with most units, they wouldn't have applications against every opponent.  I've been running into a lot of cheap, flimsy units which utilize the ridiculous cover rules in 5th to become game deciders (Eldar Guardians can camp on an objective in cover and possibly get Fortune, being a 50 point unit which you can't possibly kill cost-effectively who will be a major factor in who ultimately wins the game...IG infantry won't get Fortune but they will have loads of cheap squads that you can't kill without investing loads of fire into them) and it just occurred to me that Necrons really lack a reliable means of dealing with cover.  We just don't have it.  Creepers aren't meant to be an all-comers unit really, but rather to serve a function that nothing else serves right now.  Now, granted, I could see them being 45 points, maybe if some other people came in here and told me 40 I'd buy that, but I'm not going to be convinced that we're talking about something in the same cost range as an Immortal.  Remember, while they aren't impressive against MEQs, they'll be making swiss cheese out of T3 units, which are the ones which have become the most insufferable since the new cover rules came out.

Also, a point I'd like to argue: you seem to be making a lot of comparisons to other codices, which (it's just my opinion) I don't find appropriate.  Different armies have different needs and different strengths.  An Avatar is well under 200 points in an Eldar list, but that doesn't mean it would cost the same if the Necrons, Space Marines, or Orks could take it.  The Monolith costs what it does for the Necrons, but imagine if it could be taken by the Orks: just how much would it cost then?  One deepstriking mega-tank later, and I'm teleporting a mob into close combat every turn from 18' away, completely bypassing the vulnerable march up-field everyone relies on to kill footslogging armies.  You'd be lucky to get that thing for less than 400 points in an Ork list, because it's something that you can't take down, and it gets them into melee so easily (which for Necrons is far from the end-all conclusion to a game, but for Orks it generally is).  Take into consideration, also: would the Monolith be fair anymore if Necrons received a new 20 point troops choice with 2 attacks and a power weapon?  Now we can warp CC nasties right into combat with whomever we want, and our tanks and infantry are too tough for you to really munch them before they get there. 

Main point is that the price of a unit depends greatly on its interactions with other units, which is why what other army lists have should factor in only when it comes to what we have to deal with.  So, to lay it out another way, other people getting retinues of 10 is not grounds for Necrons getting retinues of 10; other people getting retinues of 10 is grounds for Necrons having a way of dealing with large retinues.  Does that make sense?  I don't think it's fair to say that a selection in one army justifies the same selection at the same price in another army, rather it simply dictates what other army lists will need to be ready for.

[NecronCell2131]

You make some good points about the cost of some units not being the same for other armies.

 Creepers i understand what you were going for now and they seem to be perfectly suited for those needs as is. Just don't make them to expensive otherwise they will turn out like Tyranids unit pyrovore, i have yet to see anyone take them and also have them do anything in a game.

 Tomb guard-
 I wasn't saying you should make them 20 points or even 35 points like the honor guard. I will suggest them being 40 points and making them less complicated by not having to spawn the swarms and just have feel no pain all the time. Instead of bringing back monstrous strength give them warscythes on a fluff note doesnt make sense that pariahs would have them but not the body guard of a necron lord. Just dont give them a ranged weapon and keep them totally melee oriented.

 Of course i havent seen anyone actually take a 10 man honor guard unit but its nice to have the option for bigger games but make them 3-5 or whatever you like just make the unit dependably decent for the points you will pay.

 I make comparisons to other codices because that is how I judge how good or bad to make a unit. How good are units compared other newer codices and how can we make them able to deal with those or at least make it a little more fair of a fight if both units clashed on the battle field. Your right the interaction between the other models in the codex comes into question but even with the monolith being able to teleport the lord and unit into the heart of the enemy the stats they have now means they will most likely die to anything halfway decent. besides who is to say the monolith is even going to come down when you need it or the unit doesnt get shot up trying to get into position to be available for that plan.

 Main point is that dont make them to pricey since their stats arent that great and without the necron rule the lord lost a lot of wargear options staying with this unit. They wont get the added protection of the monolith or the rez orb and plasma will just destroy them like nothing.

 Thinking about it i would not even give them feel no pain since it doesnt fit with the army in my honest opinion. Stuff either has WBB or it doesn't. Even with the power weapons and str 5 with such low (I) and WS i dont think they will do much since they will just be beat into the ground by any other unit that is anyway cc oriented.
Heres my idea for them i dont know if you going to like it but i feel this is sticking in line with not being an auto choice but certainly a tempting choice.

Tomb Guard (as designed by me to give you an idea of what i would suggest)
WS BS  S  T  I  A LD SV
 4    4   5  5  3 2 10  3+

Wargear: Warscythe
Special Rules:
-Necron
-Retinue
-Even In Death We Serve: Tomb guard will fight to the bitter end and even past that to represent this Tomb Guard that are casualties in close combat get to make 1 attack each back to the unit that caused the unsaved wounds in that round of combat. As long as the lord is still alive any Tomb guard will use the necron lords model as a template to determine if they are allowed WBB and make those WBB rolls on a 3+. Note the Necron lord has to be alive in order to allow any WBB rolls to occur.
-Steadfast Protection: Tomb Guard will not abandon their lord for any reason as such they cannot make sweeping advances and will only consolidate after the enemy.

Unit size:3-5
Points: 50 each

Now that unit looks like it can take on other command squads fairly and if someone wants to make a 350-450 unit with a fully tooled out lord then they can sink their points into it without being terribly disappointed since it should do something each game. Charging they get 15 attacks at full strength but with the lower (I) most likely only 2-4 will be able to strike the enemy dropping the chance to kill full squads down and since they cant sweeping advance it makes them a lot less deadly.

The unit is good but not overpowered in my belief because of the lack of grenades and armored transport delivery system will cause this unit to walk around and rely on either the monolith or veil to even be a little bit mobile. They only have a 3+ and even if they stand back up easier they will die quite easily to attrition units such as guard orcs tyranids, etc. With average ws and no boosting ability most of their attacks will miss and they wont power through other units without casualties especially against berserkers and other cc dedicated units.

 Your point on the Monolith makes me wonder if the crew that designed necrons discussed this and thats the reason Pariahs are not necrons today so stuff like that wouldnt happen.

 Tell me what you think. 

[Foxfire]

While I'm glad you put so much thought into it, I question the fluffiness of taking a Tomb Spyder downgrade and saying it has Pariah stats.  They're primarily there to die for their unit, hence the difficulty in killing and generally lackluster offensive abilities (two strength 5 power weapon attacks at low WS).  There's no way for Spyders to have WBB, I don't see them using warscythes.  They're also (for whatever reason) not apt to have high weapon or ballistic skills.  I think that the unit you're envisioning is more like Elite Immortals, which is not the idea I had in mind.  Not that it's a bad idea, it's just not what I created them for. 

Another problem that's been plaguing the Necrons, though, is that our units fold in combat more or less immediately, whereas in previous editions we were very good at managing combats by relying on every hapless Warrior unit to at least take three or four rounds to die (if things were going south, they usually lasted at least long enough to let you know you needed to dedicate another unit to the mix).  This is one reason why I like the idea of Pariah squad leaders.  True, they'd have to be quite expensive since you'd be conferring Fearless to the unit, as well as lowering enemy ld and mangling enemy psykers, but provided you maintained a high character cost, I think that it could be worthwhile, even in just Warrior squads (or especially in Warrior squads).  They might need to sacrifice their ability to teleport (which would force the player to consider his options rather than just always taking the ld field), but I think that in general it's a good way to fix a lot of our current problems.

[NecronCell2131]

 I forgot they were supposed to be tomb spyderish and yes i started to envision them as more akin to immortals.

 Ok new plan
Tomb Guard (as designed by me to give you an idea of what i would suggest)
WS BS  S  T  I  A LD SV
 2    2   5  5  3 2 10  3+

Wargear: Claws
Special Rules:
-Nanoengineering: This unit has the Feel No Pain special rule. With one exception that ranged weaponry will not deny feel no pain rolls.
-Retinue
-Even In Death We Serve: Tomb guard will fight to the bitter end and even past that to represent this Tomb Guard that are casualties in close combat get to make 1 attack each back to the unit that caused the unsaved wounds in that round of combat.
-Steadfast Protection: Tomb Guard will not abandon their lord for any reason as such they cannot make sweeping advances and will only consolidate after the enemy.
-Monstrous Strength: Any wounds caused by Tomb Guard ignore armor saves.

Unit size:3-5
Points: 50 each

 Tell me what you think of the new changes and if they are to your liking.

 As much as i hate it Necrons do need a weakness and that weakness is close combat. Having a Pariah upgrade would mean we would stick around in cc more often but i dont think necrons should have unit upgrades like champions or special weapons. It could be solved by making necrons stubborn, Theres no reason they should be falling back anyway they have lived for longer then most civilizations, seen more horrors and have no emotions left but hatred for all things living.
 
Stubborn 10 would mean we stay around a whole lot longer then if we were fearless, besides that the pariah would die and then we would be back in the same boat and being unable to save the unit from combat through the monolith in other situations. This is getting off topic lets stick to your units.

[Foxfire]

I agree with you fully regarding specialized champions and such, I guess I just saw the addition of Pariahs as a way to fix things without introducing new universal rules.  Necrons would benefit more from Stubborn or "They Shall Know No Fear" or whatever the rule is nowadays: they say that fluff-wise Necrons have a leadership rather than fearlessness because sometimes it's logical to run away, however if fleeing from melee is fatal 90% of the time, it no longer becomes logical to do that, especially when there are other ways out a turn away (I mean, staying in combat with the Daemon Prince is 100% fatal, it's true, but if you stick in there for a turn, chances are good of getting teleported out by Monolith or Veil).  On that note, let's agree to scrub the Pariah leader deal unless we're talking about specialized squads (like my first idea).  Generally speaking, though, I wouldn't mind seeing Necrons stay in completely uniform teams, the mixed squad was just what I opened this thread on.

As for Tomb Guard, you know...as the discussion has gone on, I have begun to think that Tomb Guard really does sound like an infantry model, not a spyder variant.  I propose that we call my mini-spyders to Spyder Escorts, and treat them differently, and create an all new unit called Tomb Guard more after your vision (though I still intend to sink my rule-hooks into them, hope you don't mind).  So, that said, here's how I'd break the one idea into two.

Spyder Escort (may need a better name)
WS:2  BS:2  S:5  T:5  W:1  I:2  A:2  Ld: 10  Sv:3+
Unit Composition: 3-5 Spyders as a retinue for the Lord
Wargear: Two massive claws
Special Rules: Retinue, All rules for the Tomb Spyder, Modified Scarab Rules, Fearless, Monstrous Strength, Expendable
Expendable: The Lord cannot leave the retinue using usual movement, but because he is so much more important than his Spyder bodyguards, he can--in times of need--opt to teleport away from the squad.  Also, their fearlessness does not confer onto him; he uses his own leadership for morale and pinning tests.  Should he fall back from combat, his body guard will remain locked in melee to ensure his escape.
In this case, they can still function as a useful retinue, and your Lord becomes a hub for the Spyder ability as well as the Resurrection Orb (typically a Lord and Spyders would accomplish this better, but sometimes you will have used up all of your Heavy Support slots, or you may just want something more survivable...even with only 1 Wound, five of these guys will be much harder to kill than a Spyder, and they'll be protecting your Lord to boot).  As you've previously mentioned, 50 points is too steep considering all they do is take abuse (something that the army does notoriously well already), so in this case, and after taking them down to one wound, I figure they might only be 25-30 points a piece.  Let me know what you think.


Tomb Guard
WS:4  BS:4  S:5  T:5  W:2  I:2  A:1  Ld:10  Sv:3+
Unit Composition: 5-10 Tomb Guard
Wargear: Warscythes with in-built Gauss Blasters
Special Rules: Retinue, Necron, Steadfast Protection (a good counter-balance though to be fair, our crappy initiative means the chances of sweeping were never high)...maybe Slow But Purposeful, to stop them from being seamless assaulters.
This unit is very tricky.  I really like them aesthetically (sort of a more formal and ritual Immortal squad...probably more impressive garb and bearing), but for gameplay they'd be very easy to overpower, on account of being a squad that's as good at combat than Pariahs, but which can also teleport.  Originally I gave them two attacks, but if I want them to have warscythes I can't do that (unless our new 'dex gives us such a unit and waives the 'Necrons are weak against good armor' policy...which honestly isn't a terrible policy, I've considered it our main weaknesses for years).  Anyway, as they stand right now, they've got monstrous shooting, good CC ability, extreme survivability...the re's just no way they won't be terribly expensive.  It's a squad the Lord can keep central to the line or go teleporting around to great effect, so I'm thinking Pariah cost at least for these guys.

[Chie Satonaka]

Expendable: The Lord cannot leave the retinue using usual movement, but because he is so much more important than his Spyder bodyguards, he can--in times of need--opt to teleport away from the squad.  Also, their fearlessness does not confer onto him; he uses his own leadership for morale and pinning tests.  Should he fall back from combat, his body guard will remain locked in melee to ensure his escape.

This rule is way too complex. I can see this misinterpreted and used wrongly left and right. Just make the Spyders fearless unless the Lord joins them.
The rule about falling back in melee is fine, though.

[Foxfire]

I agree with you completely, and I very much like your solution.  I'll replace that with your simpler version:

Expendable: The Spyder Escort will use the leadership of any Lord which is attached to their unit.  If the Lord dies, or uses the Monolith or Veil of Darkness to teleport, the unit is left behind and becomes fearless.  Similarly, if the unit falls back in close combat, the Lord is permitted to fall back and later regroup as if he was not in a unit below half-strength, while the Spyders remain in combat and continue fighting as a fearless unit.